Clarification on Rippetoe's training

[Sim882]

I'm going to change to Rippetoe's intermediate trainiing model and wanted something clarified. So far I have done weights for 6 months, 4 one and 1/2 hour sessions per week, with the following split (Monday: Chest and bisceps; Tuesday: Back and abs; Thurs: Shoulders and Triceps; Friday Legs). The programme I was on was similar to an advanced programme recommended in "Burn the Fat" (yes, it was silly for me to try an advanced programme immediately).

I think I have gained 4-5 kg of lean body mass, although my weight has remained the same at 70 kg (for the first 8 weeks, I lost 5 kg of fat, and then have slowly regained the weight, I think all of it LBM. I'm only 5'6). I have only been training the legs for 2 months though - (I was scared that my perpetual stiffness from running that I have in my legs would get worse if i did leg weights, but in fact it has improved)

Anyway, on Rippetoe's 5x5 training, he says if your maximum 5 rep bench is say 90kg, you should do 5 sets of 5 reps, ramping the weights (i.e., 5 reps of 50kg, then 60, 70, 80, 90 etc). My issue with this is doesn't this mean I would not be putting in a proper effort for the first 4 sets, because I could obviously do more reps at say 50kg. what is the point of doing these sets half-arsed - I had always tried to do as many reps of the weight as possible (unless I could do more than 12, in which case I have increased the weight).

I know the Rippetoe training says "don't fuck with routine", is it OK to pyramid the 5 sets, doing say one set 12,10,8,6,5 and "ramping" the weights this way?

 

[s8nlilhlpr2]

I know the Rippetoe training says "don't fuck with routine", is it OK to pyramid the 5 sets, doing say one set 12,10,8,6,5 and "ramping" the weights this way?

no, that would be "fucking with the routine". There is a REASON that the weights are ramped, and for you to push back your starting weights. Also, I'm confused what you mean by Ripptoe 5x5....there is a ripptoe 3x5 and a madcow 5x5, which do you mean?

In either of the programs, the point is not to kill yourself the first few workouts. You are trying to surpass you max weights lifted. You said 90kg was your best lift? The routine will have you benching 85k, 87.5k, 90k, 92.5k, 95k, etc....you just have to give it a few weeks to build up the proper momentum. If you simply continue trying to lift a "max amount" each week, you will stall very quickly.

 

[blut wump]

Also consider that your 5-rep max is 90Kg. This mean that an all-out gut-busting effort will get you 5 reps at 90Kg, after which you'll be gasping for air. Don't imagine for a moment that you could knock five of them out in a session. If you could hit 90Kg for 5 sets of 5 then it wouldn't really be your 5RM. Your 5RM would be higher.

Those sets ramping up to the top set serve both as a warmup and conditioner for the top set and also serve to increase the workload for the session. They aren't wasted sets in any sense.

As s8n mentions, you need to use the first few weeks to build up to trying to hit your 5RM, which you should be aiming for in week 4. Those first three weeks will help you to become conditioned to this type of workout and when you hit week 4 and your old 5RM weight, you should sail straight through it. It's important to move slowly and steadily in this program to avoid stalling. People have run it for months, making progress week after week.

Anyway, since you know that you shouldn't "fuck with the program", I assume you've read Madcow's notes and comments on the program. Follow his words and resist any temptation to mess with the program until you've experienced it for a couple of months.

In case you've picked the program up via some odd route, here's a link to Madcow's site:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

 

[StuWard]

"Anyway, on Rippetoe's 5x5 training, he says if your maximum 5 rep bench is say 90kg, you should do 5 sets of 5 reps, ramping the weights (i.e., 5 reps of 50kg, then 60, 70, 80, 90 etc). My issue with this is doesn't this mean I would not be putting in a proper effort for the first 4 sets, because I could obviously do more reps at say 50kg. what is the point of doing these sets half-arsed - I had always tried to do as many reps of the weight as possible (unless I could do more than 12, in which case I have increased the weight).
"

The way I interpret Ri[ppetoe, it's 3 sets of 5 all with the same weight and then the prograssion is from workout to workout. Madcow had 5x5 but I don't think he talked about ramping. Bill Starr's intermediate program did and it looks a lot like your program:

"Ramping Weights:

This is basically increasing your weight set to set like warming up. If your top set of 5 is 315, you might go 135, 185, 225, 275, and then 315 all for 5 reps. There are several reasons for this, you are warming up, getting a lot of practice and really groove the coordination of the lifts, and contributing to workload without raising it so high that fatigue overcomes you and you overtrain. If you do 315 for all 5 sets, workload is a lot higher and doing that a couple of times a week ensures that you won't last long on this program. "

"But keep in mind, going 200, 205, 210, 215, and 220 is a lot closer to 220 for 5x5 and that's too much on this kind of frequency, it will fatigue you a lot faster (i.e. prevent you from progressing) and hurt your ability to get as much as possible with your top set."


The idea is not to wear yourself out on the early sets. You are trying to set yourself up for your max effort on set 5.

 

[oso0960]

okay, so you're going from a bodybuilding split to a full body compound routine? first, congrats for making a smart move but i'd have to stay stick to the Rippetoe 3x5 instead of any 5x5 yet. 3x5 has the fastest gains so why not see if you can milk anything out of it first? then once the fastest gains possible program (3x5) stops working, THEN move to the 5x5. believe me, you might think you're intermediate/advanced, but if you've never tried a squat, push, pull 3x a week, just TRY the 3x5 first.

what you're talking about seems like madcow's 5x5 intermediate of the ramping since the 3x5 rippetoe has 3 sets of straight weights. obviously you're not putting in all of your effort for the first 4 sets, that's where everybody in the gym goes wrong. they warm up with 50 reps then jump to their workout after they're already fatigued. no it's not good to ramp the weights 'your way'. the purpose of this is not to feel the pump and give it your all every day or you WILL burn out your CNS VERY QUICKLY and thus the program doesn't work.

say your max bench is 100kg. the first week you DO NOT start with 100kg. you probably want to start with 90kg. so you would ramp up the weights 50kg, 60kg, 70kg, 80kg, 90kg THEN STOP you're done, congratulations. next week you want to jump your bench to 92.5k. the next week after that 95k, until you reach 100kg. 100 kg should then be a little easier to lift than before so therefore you're back to your max again. the next week after 100kg, you jump up to 102.5kg and attempt to break your last 100kg bench max. every week you push the weight another 2.5kg until you start missing the reps.

but personally, i'd say rippetoe's 3x5 is much better if you've never done a squat, push, pull

 

[Sim882]

okay, so you're going from a bodybuilding split to a full body compound routine? first, congrats for making a smart move but i'd have to stay stick to the Rippetoe 3x5 instead of any 5x5 yet. 3x5 has the fastest gains so why not see if you can milk anything out of it first? then once the fastest gains possible program (3x5) stops working, THEN move to the 5x5. believe me, you might think you're intermediate/advanced, but if you've never tried a squat, push, pull 3x a week, just TRY the 3x5 first.

what you're talking about seems like madcow's 5x5 intermediate of the ramping since the 3x5 rippetoe has 3 sets of straight weights. obviously you're not putting in all of your effort for the first 4 sets, that's where everybody in the gym goes wrong. they warm up with 50 reps then jump to their workout after they're already fatigued. no it's not good to ramp the weights 'your way'. the purpose of this is not to feel the pump and give it your all every day or you WILL burn out your central nervous system VERY QUICKLY and thus the program doesn't work.

say your max bench is 100kg. the first week you DO NOT start with 100kg. you probably want to start with 90kg. so you would ramp up the weights 50kg, 60kg, 70kg, 80kg, 90kg THEN STOP you're done, congratulations. next week you want to jump your bench to 92.5k. the next week after that 95k, until you reach 100kg. 100 kg should then be a little easier to lift than before so therefore you're back to your max again. the next week after 100kg, you jump up to 102.5kg and attempt to break your last 100kg bench max. every week you push the weight another 2.5kg until you start missing the reps.

but personally, i'd say rippetoe's 3x5 is much better if you've never done a squat, push, pull

OK - thanks I now understand the ramping idea.

I have in fact done all the compound lifts prescribed by 5x5 regularly, except deadlifts and squats which i have onley recently introduced. Should I then still do the 3x5 first? Thanks

 

[fallingeggs]

try the 3x5 first, but i could imagine how your bench will stall out before your squat/dead seeing as how you have been benching and this is your first time with the squat and dead. you can then look into running the 5x5 on the bench while milking the 3x5 on the squat and dead.

also do not think of the beginner vs intermediate thing as being a pussy vs. a badass. beginner is the more aggressive and faster of the programs, but at some point your body cannot keep up with how it is being pushed so you need a slightly slower more complex program to make gains... aka intermediate.