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CKD with H.I.T.

blaqmyst

New member
Mr. X
I can say I was a skeptic approximately week and half ago, but since I have tried CKD and been in Ketosis, my body feels great and I feel tight...not sluggish or bloated. My question is when I train I use Mike Mentzer H.I.T method of weight training. My results have been incredible far as building muscle. I have a question about muscle gain while in Ketosis. Do you continue to gain muscle or does it just remain stable until the fat is burned off. I want to make sure I am not wasting my time by lifting while in ketosis. I am use to a high calorie/low fat diet and I had no problem putting on mass, that was the main reason why I am on a ckd diet is to lose the fat and keep building muscle and definition. Please give feedback.

Thanks
Blaq
:fro:
 
Blaq...

You need to stop and take some time and re-read Mr.X's ckd manual, or read it if you haven't already. It sounds like you haven't done your homework, or maybe only did it halfway. First of all, you do not gain muscle when you "diet", diet meaning eating below maintenance and not meaning "how you are eating". CKD is designed to manitain what muscle you have while dropping fat.

HIT is not recommended while training while on a CKD because it really hasn't been shown as an effective way to rid the body of glycogen.

It sonds to me like your intent here is to diet. Pleasedo yourself a favor and click the new article by mr.x link at the top of this forum in the sticky seciot. Read everything you can.
 
You cannot gain muscle while on a CKD diet.
 
I appreciate the honesty

I appreciate the opinions of members, I personnally disagee with the statement of you can not gain muscle while in Ketosis. About 3 years ago while at Ft. Bragg, I along with my team was on a 5 day low carb and weekend carb load and we all lost alot of weight and gained plenty of muscle (Dropping from 245lbs to 192lbs in little as 3 months). My 1st Sgt was ripped and practiced Keto Diet for years.

Here is what I gathered from my experience with Ketosis. It takes approximately 72 hours to induce Ketosis, and approximately 36 hours to come out of Ketosis. When we carb load starting Friday at 4pm and ending Sunday at 12pm, all of us still remain in ketosis. It didnt matter what we ate during the Carb Load process, and the only stipulations we had was to drink massive amounts of water (flush the kidneys) and eat pros and fats only when you feel hungry. No insulin, no storage. Note being some did lose muscle along with fat but majority of us were pretty lean and cut. Your body is not a light bulb switch, you just cant turn it on and off whenever you please. It has to learn new methods just like changing the Metobolic State of burning Fat for fuel instead of Carbs. Just like it took your body sometime to shift the metobolic state, it will need the same time or less time to convert back to burning carbs as a main fuel source.

To address H.I.T, the method is very simple, the Growth Reponse Signal is sent to begin the growth process when using H.I.T. We dont pump set after sets to muscle failure which will create a response for your body to breakdown internal proteins to repair the fibers (This is a myth where some people assume H.I.T. is all about high reps and high sets confused with HIIT). We do 1 intense set of Isolation to muscle failure and 1 set of compound to begin the growth response and recovery is through diet. I have read Mr. X articles and I felt they were excellent, but a little extreme... no offense Mr. X. Ketosis is simple, no carbs , no transport hormone, fat is converted to a primary source of energy. Measuring calories and pros and fat is not that important, Insulin is a transport hormone only...it doesnt tell the fat cells to store fat, fat cells are programmed to do that normally. Imagine Insulin as a Train and food are the passengers...too many sugars are dropped off in a storage tank, too much access carbs are stored as well as proteins. If you have the right amount of pros and carbs (good carbs) on that train, it will be delivered to the proper place......muscle.

The body is constantly repairing itself hourly, when you stimulate growth in muscles, the body will seek a recovery agent i.e carbs or protein. What happens when you pull a muscle? You carb load and the muscle heals quicker right...same thing applies to H.I.T. You are not overworking the muscles, you are just creating a growth response and the body will use stored fat and dietary protein as a recovery agent. Your body requires 50 calories daily to maintain 1 pound of muscle, in Ketosis (Fat) is viewed as a energy source while protein will be used to maintain muscle capacity.

I asked Mr. X the question because I respect his knowledge. Alot of Pros are on Keto type diets and if muscle gain was not normal, then alot of Pros including Newbies are wasting alot of precious time in the gym. The idea is to gather as much knowledge as you can and work a plan that fits your body and schedule. Some people respond diffently in Ketosis than others. Again, I respect and thank you for your opinons. Knowledge is the key to success.

Live long and walk clean!
Blaq
:fro:
 
I would like to hear more on this subject. Is there a specific thread that hits on this point, because I`m sort of doing hit with keto and I feel like I`m cheating myself no matter what I do because of the " can`t gain on keto" rule.
I also understand the theory of depleting glycogen stores... if someone can explain EXACTLY what that is or direct me somewhere else.
I don`t have the same "fire" in the gym when I think I can`t gain muscle.
 
blaqmyst said:
Mr. X
I can say I was a skeptic approximately week and half ago, but since I have tried CKD and been in Ketosis, my body feels great and I feel tight...not sluggish or bloated. My question is when I train I use Mike Mentzer H.I.T method of weight training. My results have been incredible far as building muscle. I have a question about muscle gain while in Ketosis. Do you continue to gain muscle or does it just remain stable until the fat is burned off. I want to make sure I am not wasting my time by lifting while in ketosis. I am use to a high calorie/low fat diet and I had no problem putting on mass, that was the main reason why I am on a ckd diet is to lose the fat and keep building muscle and definition. Please give feedback.

Thanks
Blaq
:fro:

Muscle gains while on CKD is a GREY area; most people gain very little muscle if any if they do a PROPER carb-up. However, muscle gains while on CKD are POSSIBLE due to the "anabolic" effect that is created during the carb-up. The carbs expand the muscle glycogen store sites; thus, creating a state of anabolism. In fact, HIT training where you put high tension for a short period of time on the muscle tissue might be one of the best ways to train for you; again, it all boils down to genetics.

If it works for you, great.... but for most, muscle gains are slim to nill on CKD. Remember, AS use during CKD can increase the chances of a higher anabolic rate and lower-muscle-catabolism.

Mr.X
 
On a side note; I missed a point....

HIT training will NOT properly deplete muscle/liver glycogen stores; thus, it's NOT the best way to go if one is trying to avoid catabolism cause by being out of Ketosis. If done right, people can reach ketosis in 8 hrs, most take up to 48hrs because they are NOT doing the post-carb-up routine properly.

Mr.X
 
Mr. X thanks for reply

Mr.X said:
On a side note; I missed a point....

HIT training will NOT properly deplete muscle/liver glycogen stores; thus, it's NOT the best way to go if one is trying to avoid catabolism cause by being out of Ketosis. If done right, people can reach ketosis in 8 hrs, most take up to 48hrs because they are NOT doing the post-carb-up routine properly.

Mr.X

Finally I can speak you you. First I would like to say your articles are incredible. Here is my debate. During you carb depletion during the week, it will virtually impossible to gain muscle because of Ketosis, but.....during the Carb load on the weekends, you are refilling the liver with sugars needed to repair or recover muscle fibers. Here is the big question....if there is no transporting hormore to transport the nutrients to the muscles....how do I gain muscle gain? Many of my friends use Keto and practice H.I.T. and they are still making gains. This is why I originally wanted to speak with you. I support Keto 100% but if there is no transporting hormones being released, how can we continue to make gains? I was thinking about ingesting small amount of insulin after workouts to transport recovery agents such as gluc, creatine, etc...etc..etc...

I will await your response.

Blaq
:fro:
 
Re: Mr. X thanks for reply

Finally I can speak you you. First I would like to say your articles are incredible.
thank you
Here is my debate. During you carb depletion during the week, it will virtually impossible to gain muscle because of Ketosis, yes that's true
but.....during the Carb load on the weekends, you are refilling the liver with sugars
liver glycogen has NOTHING to do w/ muscle building; if anything, it is geared towards thyroid control and prevention of starvation
needed to repair or recover muscle fibers. Here is the big question....if there is no transporting hormore to transport the nutrients to the muscles....how do I gain muscle gain?
that's the KEY, you can't gain muscle DURING ketosis; but during the carb-up, the hormones present are: insulin, IGF1, GH etc... so I don't see a problem gaining muscle w/ the carbup

Many of my friends use Keto and practice H.I.T. and they are still making gains.
just keto? well, I guess they take in enough protein that it gets converted into glucose just as carbs would; which explains their gains, if there are gains

This is why I originally wanted to speak with you. I support Keto 100% but if there is no transporting hormones being released, how can we continue to make gains?
you are gravely misusing words; KETOSIS and CKD are two different things...straight ketosis will not provide any muscle gains, while CKD w/ the carb-up on hand will create enough anabolism to show some muscle gains, or at least a positive nitrogen balance

I was thinking about ingesting small amount of insulin after workouts
that's an awful idea if you're taking in fats close to the workout or after

Mr.X
 
Thank X

Thanks for the input, this would definately explain their gains...far as the injections of insulin....of course there will be very little fat..all postive supps. Here is what I am thinking, just a theory....if you are in Ketosis...you are not releasing insulin, therefore muscles can not get the proper nutrients it needs to grow. The muscles will not breakdown and the fat will be the main source of fuel. Well, lets just say 'What if you were to stimulate growth using H.I.T. and after your workout within 30 minutes you take a small dose of insulin then take your supps and creatine (avoiding high levels of fat). The small dose of insulin should be enough to transport the nutrients. Wait 90 minutes before eating. Then you will continue to sustain Ketosis only taking insulin after your workout for transport of supps.


Input

Blaq
:fro:
 
Last edited:
Re: Thank X

blaqmyst said:
Thanks for the input, this would definately explain their gains...far as the injections of insulin....of course there will be very little fat..all postive supps. Here is what I am thinking, just a theory....if you are in Ketosis...you are not releasing insulin, therefore muscles can not get the proper nutrients it needs to grow. The muscles will not breakdown and the fat will be the main source of fuel. Well, lets just say 'What if you were to stimulate growth using H.I.T. and after your workout within 30 minutes you take a small dose of insulin then take your supps and creatine (avoiding high levels of fat). The small dose of insulin should be enough to transport the nutrients. Then you will continue to sustain Ketosis only taking insulin after your workout.


Input

Blaq
:fro:

What nutrients would those be? if you don't take in carbs w/ insuline, you'll die. Hypoglycemia; carbs are contradictory to Ketosis.

Mr.X
 
Re: Re: Thank X

Mr.X said:


What nutrients would those be? if you don't take in carbs w/ insuline, you'll die. Hypoglycemia; carbs are contradictory to Ketosis.

Mr.X

I am thinking of a protein drink with creatine after the shot just to push the nutrients in for a couple hours. Then after that continue CKD.

So you are only pushing insulin after your workouts.

Input
 
Re: Re: Re: Thank X

blaqmyst said:


I am thinking of a protein drink with creatine after the shot just to push the nutrients in for a couple hours. Then after that continue CKD.

So you are only pushing insulin after your workouts.

Input

You'll probably go hypo; it's pw w/ low-blood sugar and depending on the type of insulin you might face a fast death or a slow death.

I wouldn't recommend doing it that way... read my MKD manual, it goes into further detail on insulin use and Ketosis.

Mr.X
 
Thanks

Mr.X said:


You'll probably go hypo; it's pw w/ low-blood sugar and depending on the type of insulin you might face a fast death or a slow death.

I wouldn't recommend doing it that way... read my MKD manual, it goes into further detail on insulin use and Ketosis.

Mr.X
Thanks X

Your input was fantastic, hey good luck on your book! I will still remain in my state of wonders on how to gain while on CKD. It just doesnt make sense to Bulk, Cut, Bulk again, Cut, and then Bulk again...there has to be away to cut and bulk at the same time. Cant wait to get your book!

Take care X

Blaq
:fro:
 
b careful w/ slin if you aren't 100% knowledgable about the timing.... simple carb intake etc. Also, there is a good chance that if you were running a normal keto diet and gained muscle.. that your protein intake was high enough to cause your body to start converting it to glycogen... This would shuttle all teh goodies into your muscles providing for growth, which would not be possible on a moderate protein-high fat keto diet.
 
ZKaudio said:
b careful w/ slin if you aren't 100% knowledgable about the timing.... simple carb intake etc. Also, there is a good chance that if you were running a normal keto diet and gained muscle.. that your protein intake was high enough to cause your body to start converting it to glycogen... This would shuttle all teh goodies into your muscles providing for growth, which would not be possible on a moderate protein-high fat keto diet.

On a normal CKD, I follow Mr. X numbers to the last %. I am wondering about the greater amount of protein to covert into glycogen. What would be the % of proteins to make this happen safely without over spill. Any idea?
 
blaqmyst said:


On a normal CKD, I follow Mr. X numbers to the last %. I am wondering about the greater amount of protein to covert into glycogen. What would be the % of proteins to make this happen safely without over spill. Any idea?


the is NO safe amount... the protein -> glucose conversion takes to long in most cases; but, the numbers - at about a 50-56% rate.

I would just stick to VERY low insulin doses if any, otherwise it's too risky.

Mr.X
 
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