Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Circumcision? Yes or no?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MohawkMuscle
  • Start date Start date

Circumcision, Yes or no?

  • Yes

    Votes: 132 61.1%
  • NO

    Votes: 83 38.4%

  • Total voters
    216
M

MohawkMuscle

Guest
I will be having a son in Dec.

I understand in canada this is not a routine practice anymore, you have to pay and make an appointment for this.
 
i read it keratinises the mucous membranes on the head of the penis (glans) so infection is much harder. the only mucous membranes left easilyh exposed would be the urethra

it also is said to deaden sensation. the hygene implications probably arent noteworthy as proper cleaning is ok i guess.

if i had a son id do it :rolleyes:

but its completely ur choice at the end of the day.

IT ALSO HURTS LIKE FUCK!!!
 
MohawkMuscle said:
I will be having a son in Dec.

I understand in canada this is not a routine practice anymore, you have to pay and make an appointment for this.

Tell me why would you do this .......
 
Circumsize that little pecker, its just nasty with the foreskin----looks like a monkey dick or something, plus chicks prefer a visable head. I think smegma and bacteria and shit is a concern also with un-cut penises.
 
There was a long post a looong time ago explaining exactly why one should NOT inflict such a thing upon his son.

First of all: "It helps keep it clean!" Bullshit... soap helps keep it clean. Hell, what gets dirtier every day? Your face (exposed all day long) or your feet (socks and shoes covering them all day long).

Secondly: I'm told that circumcision results in less sensitivity for the man when "the time" comes.

Thirdly: "It looks better!" blah blah blah... pull back the skin and I bet not even the peepee-doctor could tell the difference.

Fourthly: "He'll get made fun of!" There is not a child alive today who cannot think of something about a person to make fun of. Might as well not send him to school or let him play outside. He'll thank you when he's a big boy for not mutilating his penis.

Finally: You seem to be looking for a reason "why not" - you should be looking for a reason WHY. I don't think to myself: "Gee let me think of some reasons why not to smash my hand with a hammer?" I think "Why the fuck would I smash my hand with a hammer?"

Besides, if he wants it done, he'll do it himself when he feels like making that decision. Isn't it his to make anyway?

-Warik
 
didnt mention if u circumcise at a younger age the tissue is more likely to keratinise

it has been shown to reduce HIV tranmission

STD prevention would be my main motivation, i wouldnt really consider hygiene one, but it isnt exactly traumatic or anything it just stings :rolleyes: ....it does help keep the penis cleaner as bacteria will grow much more easily in the foreskin...there are a whole host of pathogens that do this

soap and water takes care of it though
 
Over 80 percent said yes, including me. I'm sure the ones that said no are uncircumcised and don't mind having that ugly thing between their legs.

Circumcision is esthetically better looking, bottom line.
 
Fuck it, even if I wasn't already done at age 30, i would go and get it cut. Who the hell wants a dog dick? Do your kid a favor and get it cut, he won't remember anyhow. If anything it will make him a stronger man in the future.
 
danielson said:
it has been shown to reduce HIV tranmission

Not having sex with HIV positive partners has been shown to reduce HIV transmission a thousand times better. =)

-Warik
 
Hell no its fucking mutilation. And so is female genital mutilation.
 
Warik said:
There was a long post a looong time ago explaining exactly why one should NOT inflict such a thing upon his son.

First of all: "It helps keep it clean!" Bullshit... soap helps keep it clean. Hell, what gets dirtier every day? Your face (exposed all day long) or your feet (socks and shoes covering them all day long).

Secondly: I'm told that circumcision results in less sensitivity for the man when "the time" comes.

Thirdly: "It looks better!" blah blah blah... pull back the skin and I bet not even the peepee-doctor could tell the difference.


Besides, if he wants it done, he'll do it himself when he feels like making that decision. Isn't it his to make anyway?

-Warik

your first point about keeping it clean is fine, but your foot doesn't take a piss 5 times a day.

has far as sensitivity, i dont think it matters either way. im cut and it is sensitive as i am sure uncuts are too.

:)
 
That uncircumsized shit is 3rd World man. Him and the little Dominican kid are going to be the only ones in his class with hidden turtle dicks.

Cut the foreskin, don't you want Jr. getting a blow job at Prom instead of growing up ashamed to showcase his pointy little lint-filled urine-soaked monkey dick?
 
HamHock said:
That uncircumsized shit is 3rd World man. Him and the little Dominican kid are going to be the only ones in his class with hidden turtle dicks.

Cut the foreskin, don't you want Jr. getting a blow job at Prom instead of growing up ashamed to showcase his pointy little lint-filled urine-soaked monkey dick?


I guess its better if your kid wants to be a porno actor....its better looking lol
 
I have seen pictures of uncut penises in college one time and ome look horrible. Ive seen the skin1-2 inches longer and looks all curled up and gross.
 
ITs there for a reason. If it wasn't ment to be there then evoloution would have taken care of it. All the people who have had it done will say "yeah get it done it looks better" to make them selves feel better and those who haven't will say "dont get it done blah blah". Its hard not to be bias when its a personal issue. I say let him decide later on.
 
I'd rather not do it if he doesn't seem to need it, some kids have a tight foreskin and are likely to have problems when they grow up, so they need it...
I think it's his dick, his choice... just talk about ti openly when he's going thought puberty and answer all his questions about it, maybe he'll want to get it done then

Gerardo *
 
Mowhawkmuscle- go to this website, you owe it to your son.

http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/

here is just one of the many articles on there, pleae read them all before you decide to amputate your son's foreskin.





Where Is My Foreskin?
The Case Against Circumcision




Paul M. Fleiss, MD




Western countries have no tradition of circumcision. In antiquity, the expansion of the Greek and Roman Empires brought Westerners into contact with the peoples of the Middle East, some of whom marked their children with circumcision and other sexual mutilations. To protect these children, the Greeks and Romans passed laws forbidding circumcision.[1] Over the centuries, the Catholic Church has passed many similar laws.[2,3] The traditional Western response to circumcision has been revulsion and indignation.
Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis. Nevertheless, they were soon claiming that circumcision cured epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, elephantiasis, tuberculosis, eczema, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, fecal incontinence, rectal prolapse, wet dreams, hernia, headaches, nervousness, hysteria, poor eyesight, idiocy, mental retardation, and insanity.[4]

In fact, no procedure in the history of medicine has been claimed to cure and prevent more diseases than circumcision. As late as the 1970s, leading American medical textbooks still advocated routine circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation.[5] The antisexual motivations behind an operation that entails cutting off part of the penis are obvious.

The radical practice of routinely circumcising babies did not begin until the Cold War era. This institutionalization of what amounted to compulsory circumcision was part of the same movement that pathologized and medicalized birth and actively discouraged breastfeeding. Private-sector, corporate-run hospitals institutionalized routine circumcision without ever consulting the American people. There was no public debate or referendum. It was only in the 1970s that a series of lawsuits forced hospitals to obtain parental consent to perform this contraindicated but highly profitable surgery. Circumcisers responded by inventing new "medical" reasons for circumcision in an attempt to scare parents into consenting.

Today the reasons given for circumcision have been updated to play on contemporary fears and anxieties; but one day they, too, will be considered irrational. Now that such current excuses as the claim that this procedure prevents cancer and sexually transmitted diseases have been thoroughly discredited, circumcisers will undoubtedly invent new ones. But if circumcisers were really motivated by purely medical considerations, the procedure would have died out long ago, along with leeching, skull-drilling, and castration. The fact that it has not suggests that the compulsion to circumcise came first, the "reasons," later.

Millions of years of evolution have fashioned the human body into a model of refinement, elegance, and efficiency, with every part having a function and purpose. Evolution has determined that mammals' genitals should be sheathed in a protective, responsive, multipurpose foreskin. Every normal human being is born with a foreskin. In females, it protects the glans of the clitoris; in males, it protects the glans of the penis. Thus, the foreskin is an essential part of human sexual anatomy.

Parents should enjoy the arrival of a new child with as few worries as possible. The birth of a son in the US, however, is often fraught with anxiety and confusion. Most parents are pressured to hand their baby sons over to a stranger, who, behind closed doors, straps babies down and cuts their foreskins off. The billion-dollar-a-year circumcision industry has bombarded Americans with confusing rhetoric and calculated scare tactics.

Information about the foreskin itself is almost always missing from discussions about circumcision. The mass circumcision campaigns of the past few decades have resulted in pandemic ignorance about this remarkable structure and its versatile role in human sexuality. Ignorance and false information about the foreskin are the rule in American medical literature, education, and practice. Most American medical textbooks depict the human penis, without explanation, as circumcised, as if it were so by nature.




What Is the Foreskin?
The foreskin is a uniquely specialized, sensitive, functional organ of touch. No other part of the body serves the same purpose. As a modified extension of the penile shaft skin, the foreskin covers and usually extends beyond the glans before folding under itself and finding its circumferential point of attachment just behind the corona (the rim of the glans). The foreskin is, therefore, a double-layered organ. Its true length is twice the length of its external fold, comprising 80 percent or more of the penile skin covering,[6] or at least 25 percent of the flaccid penis's length.

The foreskin contains a rich concentration of blood vessels and nerve endings. It is lined with the peripenic muscle sheet, a smooth muscle layer with longitudinal fibers. These muscle fibers are whorled, forming a kind of sphincter that ensures optimum protection of the urinary tract from contaminants of all kinds.

Like the undersurface of the eyelids or the inside of the cheek, the undersurface of the foreskin consists of mucous membrane. It is divided into two distinct zones: the soft mucosa and the ridged mucosa. The soft mucosa lies against the glans penis and contains ectopic sebaceous glands that secrete emollients, lubricants, and protective antibodies. Similar glands are found in the eyelids and mouth.

Adjacent to the soft mucosa and just behind the lips of the foreskin is the ridged mucosa. This exquisitely sensitive structure consists of tightly pleated concentric bands, like the elastic bands at the top of a sock. These expandable pleats allow the foreskin lips to open and roll back, exposing the glans. The ridged mucosa gives the foreskin its characteristic taper.

On the underside of the glans, the foreskin's point of attachment is advanced toward the meatus (urethral opening) and forms a bandlike ligament called the frenulum. It is identical to the frenulum that secures the tongue to the floor of the mouth. The foreskin's frenulum holds it in place over the glans, and, in conjunction with the smooth muscle fibers, helps return the retracted foreskin to its usual forward position over the glans.




Retraction of the Foreskin
At birth, the foreskin is usually attached to the glans, very much as a fingernail is attached to a finger. By puberty, the penis will usually have completed its development, and the foreskin will have separated from the glans.[8] This separation occurs in its own time; there is no set age by which the foreskin and glans must be separated. One wise doctor described the process thus, "The foreskin therefore can be likened to a rosebud which remains closed and muzzled. Like a rosebud, it will only blossom when the time is right. No one opens a rosebud to make it blossom."[9]

Even if the glans and foreskin separate naturally in infancy, the foreskin lips can normally dilate only enough to allow the passage of urine. This ideal feature protects the glans from premature exposure to the external environment.

The penis develops naturally throughout childhood. Eventually, the child will, on his own, make the wondrous discovery that his foreskin will retract. There is no reason for parents, physicians, or other caregivers to manipulate a child's penis. The only person to retract a child's foreskin should be the child himself, when he has discovered that his foreskin is ready to retract.

Parents should be wary of anyone who tries to retract their child's foreskin, and especially wary of anyone who wants to cut it off. Human foreskins are in great demand for any number of commercial enterprises, and the marketing of purloined baby foreskins is a multimillion-dollar-a-year industry. Pharmaceutical and cosmetic companies use human foreskins as research material. Corporations such as Advanced Tissue Sciences, Organogenesis, and BioSurface Technology use human foreskins as the raw materials for a type of breathable bandage.




What Are the Foreskin's Functions?
The foreskin has numerous protective, sensory, and sexual functions.

* Protection: Just as the eyelids protect the eyes, the foreskin protects the glans and keeps its surface soft, moist, and sensitive. It also maintains optimal warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness. The glans itself contains no sebaceous glands--glands that produce the sebum, or oil, that moisturizes our skin.[11] The foreskin produces the sebum that maintains proper health of the surface of the glans.

* Immunological Defense: The mucous membranes that line all body orifices are the body's first line of immunological defense. Glands in the foreskin produce antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as lysozyme.[12] Lysozyme is also found in tears and mother's milk. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, an immune system component, abound in the foreskin's outer surface. Plasma cells in the foreskin's mucosal lining secrete immunoglobulins, antibodies that defend against infections.

* Erogenous Sensitivity: The foreskin is as sensitive as the fingertips or the lips of the mouth. It contains a richer variety and greater concentration of specialized nerve receptors than any other part of the penis.[15] These specialized nerve endings can discern motion, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations of texture.[16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23]

* Coverage during Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.

* Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.

* Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, movable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.

The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix--a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.

The foreskin may have functions not yet recognized or understood. Scientists in Europe recently detected estrogen receptors in its basal epidermal cells.[24] Researchers at the University of Manchester found that the human foreskin has apocrine glands.[25] These specialized glands produce pheromones, nature's chemical messengers. Further studies are needed to fully understand these features of the foreskin and the role they play.




Care of the Foreskin
The natural penis requires no special care. A child's foreskin, like his eyelids, is self-cleansing. For the same reason it is inadvisable to lift the eyelids and wash the eyeballs, it is inadvisable to retract a child's foreskin and wash the glans. Immersion in plain water during the bath is all that is needed to keep the intact penis clean.[26]

The white emollient under the child's foreskin is called smegma. Smegma is probably the most misunderstood, most unjustifiably maligned substance in nature. Smegma is clean, not dirty, and is beneficial and necessary. It moisturizes the glans and keeps it smooth, soft, and supple. Its antibacterial and antiviral properties keep the penis clean and healthy. All mammals produce smegma. Thomas J. Ritter, MD, underscored its importance when he commented, "The animal kingdom would probably cease to exist without smegma."[27]

Studies suggest that it is best not to use soap on the glans or foreskin's inner fold.[23] Forcibly retracting and washing a baby's foreskin destroys the beneficial bacterial flora that protect the penis from harmful germs and can lead to irritation and infection. The best way to care for a child's intact penis is to leave it alone. After puberty, males can gently rinse their glans and foreskin with warm water, according to their own self-determined needs.




How Common Is Circumcision?
Circumcision is almost unheard of in Europe, South America, and non-Muslim Asia. In fact, only 10 to 15 percent of men throughout the world are circumcised. The vast majority of whom are Muslim.[29] The neonatal circumcision rate in the western US has now fallen to 34.2 percent.[30] This relatively diminished rate may surprise American men born during the era when nearly 90 percent of baby boys were circumcised automatically, with or without their parents' consent.




How Does Circumcision Harm?
The "medical" debate about the "potential health benefits" of circumcision rarely addresses its real effects.

* Circumcision denudes: Depending on the amount of skin cut off, circumcision robs a male of as much as 80 percent or more of his penile skin. Depending on the foreskin's length, cutting it off makes the penis as much as 25 percent or more shorter. Careful anatomical investigations have shown that circumcision cuts off more than 3 feet of veins, arteries, and capillaries, 240 feet of nerves, and more than 20,000 nerve endings.[31]The foreskin's muscles, glands, mucous membrane, and epithelial tissue are destroyed, as well.

* Circumcision desensitizes: Circumcision desensitizes the penis radically. Foreskin amputation means severing the rich nerve network and all the nerve receptors in the foreskin itself. Circumcision almost always damages or destroys the frenulum. The loss of the protective foreskin desensitizes the glans. Because the membrane covering the permanently externalized glans is now subjected to constant abrasion and irritation, it keratinizes, becoming dry and tough. The nerve endings in the glans, which in the intact penis are just beneath the surface of the mucous membrane, are now buried by successive layers of keratinization. The denuded glans takes on a dull, grayish, sclerotic appearance.

* Circumcision disables: The amputation of so much penile skin permanently immobilizes whatever skin remains, preventing it from gliding freely over the shaft and glans. This loss of mobility destroys the mechanism by which the glans is normally stimulated. When the circumcised penis becomes erect, the immobilized remaining skin is stretched, sometimes so tightly that not enough skin is left to cover the erect shaft. Hair-bearing skin from the groin and scrotum is often pulled onto the shaft, where hair is not normally found. The surgically externalized mucous membrane of the glans has no sebaceous glands. Without the protection and emollients of the foreskin, it dries out, making it susceptible to cracking and bleeding.

* Circumcision disfigures: Circumcision alters the appearance of the penis drastically. It permanently externalizes the glans, normally an internal organ. Circumcision leaves a large circumferential surgical scar on the penile shaft. Because circumcision usually necessitates tearing the foreskin from the glans, pieces of the glans may be torn off, too, leaving it pitted and scarred. Shreds of foreskin may adhere to the raw glans, forming tags and bridges of dangling, displaced skin.[32]

Depending on the amount of skin cut off and how the scar forms, the circumcised penis may be permanently twisted, or curve or bow during erection.[33] The contraction of the scar tissue may pull the shaft into the abdomen, in effect shortening the penis or burying it completely.[34]

* Circumcision disrupts circulation: Circumcision interrupts the normal circulation of blood throughout the penile skin system and glans. The blood flowing into major penile arteries is obstructed by the line of scar tissue at the point of incision, creating backflow instead of feeding the branches and capillary networks beyond the scar. Deprived of blood, the meatus may contract and scarify, obstructing the flow of urine.[35] This condition, known as meatal stenosis, often requires corrective surgery. Meatal stenosis is found almost exclusively among boys who have been circumcised.

Circumcision also severs the lymph vessels, interrupting the circulation of lymph and sometimes causing lymphedema, a painful, disfiguring condition in which the remaining skin of the penis swells with trapped lymph fluid.

* Circumcision harms the developing brain: Recent studies published in leading medical journals have reported that circumcision has longlasting detrimental effects on the developing brain,[36] adversely altering the brain's perception centers. Circumcised boys have a lower pain threshold than girls or intact boys.[37] Developmental neuropsychologist Dr. James Prescott suggests that circumcision can cause deeper and more disturbing levels of neurological damage, as well. [38, 39]

* Circumcision is unhygienic and unhealthy: One of the most common myths about circumcision is that it makes the penis cleaner and easier to take care of. This is not true. Eyes without eyelids would not be cleaner; neither would a penis without its foreskin. The artificially externalized glans and meatus of the circumcised penis are constantly exposed to abrasion and dirt, making the circumcised penis, in fact, more unclean. The loss of the protective foreskin leaves the urinary tract vulnerable to invasion by bacterial and viral pathogens.

The circumcision wound is larger than most people imagine. It is not just the circular point of union between the outer and inner layers of the remaining skin. Before a baby is circumcised, his foreskin must be torn from his glans, literally skinning it alive. This creates a large open area of raw, bleeding flesh, covered at best with a layer of undeveloped protomucosa. Germs can easily enter the damaged tissue and bloodstream through the raw glans and, even more easily, through the incision itself.

Even after the wound has healed, the externalized glans and meatus are still forced into constant unnatural contact with urine, feces, chemically treated diapers, and other contaminants.

Female partners of circumcised men do not report a lower rate of cervical cancer,[40] nor does circumcision prevent penile cancer.[41] A recent study shows that the penile cancer rate is higher in the US than in Denmark, where circumcision, except among Middle Eastern immigrant workers, is almost unheard of.[42] Indeed, researchers should investigate the possibility that circumcision has actually increased the rate of these diseases.

Circumcision does not prevent acquisition or transmission of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). In fact, the US has both the highest percentage of sexually active circumcised males in the Western world and the highest rates of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS. Rigorously controlled prospective studies show that circumcised American men are at a greater risk for bacterial and viral STDs, especially gonorrhea,[43] nongonoccal urethritis,[44] human papilloma virus,[45] herpes simplex virus type 2,[46] and chlamydia.[47]

* Circumcision is always risky: Circumcision always carries the risk of serious, even tragic, consequences. Its surgical complication rate is one in 500.[48] These complications include uncontrollable bleeding and fatal infections.[49] There are many published case reports of gangrene following circumcision.[50] Pathogenic bacteria such as staphylococcus, proteus, pseudomonas, other coliforms, and even tuberculosis can cause infections leading to death.[51, 52] These organisms enter the wound because it provides easy entry, not because the child is predisposed to infection.

Medical journals have published numerous accounts of babies who have had part or all of their glans cut off while they were being circumcised.[53 54 55] Other fully conscious, unanesthetized babies have had their entire penis burned off with an electrocautery gun.[56,57,58] The September 1989 Journal of Urology published an account of four such cases.[59] The article described the sex-change operation as "feminizing genitoplasty," performed on these babies in an attempt to change them into girls. The March 1997 Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine described one young person's horror on learning that "she" had been born a normal male, but that a circumciser had burned his penis off when he was a baby.[60] Many other similar cases have been documented[61,62] Infant circumcision has a reported death rate of one in 500,000.[63,64]

* Circumcision harms mothers: Scientific studies have consistently shown that circumcision disrupts a child's behavioral development. Studies performed at the University of Colorado School of Medicine showed that circumcision is followed by prolonged, unrestful non-REM (rapid eye movement) sleep.[65] In response to the lengthy bombardment of their neural pathways with unbearable pain, the circumcised babies withdrew into a kind of semicoma that lasted days or even weeks.

Numerous other studies have proven that circumcision disrupts the mother-infant bond during the crucial period after birth. Research has also shown that circumcision disrupts feeding patterns. In a study at the Washington University School of Medicine, most babies would not nurse right after they were circumcised, and those who did would not look into their mothers' eyes.[66]

* Circumcision violates patients' and human rights: No one has the right to cut off any part of someone else's genitals without that person's competent, fully informed consent. Since it is the infant who must bear the consequences, circumcision violates his legal rights both to refuse treatment and to seek alternative treatment. In 1995, the American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Bioethics stated that only a competent patient can give patient consent or informed consent.[67] An infant is obviously too young to consent to anything. He must be protected from anyone who would take advantage of his defenselessness. The concept of informed parental permission allows for medical interventions in situations of clear and immediate medical necessity only, such as disease, trauma, or deformity. The human penis in its normal, uncircumcised state satisfies none of these requirements.

Physicians have a duty to refuse to perform circumcision. They also must educate parents who, out of ignorance or misguidance, request this surgery for their sons. The healthcare professional's obligation is to protect the interests of the child. It is unethical in the extreme to force upon a child an amputation he almost certainly would never have chosen for himself.




Common Sense
To be intact, as nature intended, is best. The vast majority of males who are given the choice value their wholeness and keep their foreskins, for the same reason they keep their other organs of perception. Parents in Europe and non-Muslim Asia never have forced their boys to be circumcised. It would no more occur to them to cut off part of their boys' penises than it would to cut off part of their ears. Respecting a child's right to keep his genitals intact is normal and natural. It is conservative in the best sense of the word.

A circumcised father who has mixed feelings about his intact newborn son may require gentle, compassionate psychological counseling to help him come to terms with his loss and to overcome his anxieties about normal male genitalia. In such cases, the mother should steadfastly protect her child, inviting her husband to share this protective role and helping him diffuse his negative feelings. Most parents want what is best for their baby. Wise parents listen to their hearts and trust their instinct to protect their baby from harm. The experience of the ages has shown that babies thrive best in a trusting atmosphere of love, gentleness, respect, acceptance, nurturing, and intimacy. Cutting off a baby's foreskin shatters this trust.

Circumcision wounds and harms the baby and the person the baby will become. Parents who respect their son's wholeness are bequeathing to him his birthright--his body, perfect and beautiful in its entirety.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul M. Fleiss, MD, MPH, is assistant clinical professor of pediatrics at the University of Southern California Medical Center. He is the author of numerous scientific articles published in leading national and international medical journals.

Notes

1. T. J. Ritter and G. C. Denniston, Say No to Circumcision: 40 Compelling Reasons, 2nd ed. (Aptos, CA Hourglass 1996), 6-20.

2. "Incipit Libellus De Ecclesiasticis Disciplinis et Religione Christiana Collectus. Liber II.XC, XCI" in Patrologiae Cursus Completus, vol. 132 (Paris: Apud Garnier Fratres, Editores et J. P. Migne Successores, 1880), 301-302.

3. S. Grayzel, The Church and the Jews in the Xllth Century, vol. 2, ed. K. R. Stow (Detroit, MI: Wayne State University Press, 1989), 246-247.

4. See Note 10, 17-40.

5. M. E Camphor "The Male Genital Tract and the Female Urethra," in Urology, eds. M. E. Campbell and J. H. Harrison, vol. 2, 3rd ed. (Philadelphia: W. B. Saunders, 1970), 1836.

6. See photographic series: J. A. Erickson, "Three Zones of Penile Skin." In M. M. Lander, "The Human Prepuce," in G. C. Denniston and M. E. Milos, eds., Sexual Mutilations: A Human Tragedy (New York: Plenum Press, 1997), 79-81.

7. M. Davenport, "Problems with the Penis and Prepuce: Natural History of the Foreskin" (photograph 1), British Medical Journal 312 (1996): 299-301.

8. J. Oster, "Further Fate of the Foreskin," Archives of Disease in Childhood 43 (1968): 200-203.

9. H. L. Tan, "Foreskin Fallacies and Phimosis," Annals of the Academy of Medicine, Singapore 14 (1985): 626-630.

10. F. A. Hodges, "Short History of the Institutionalization of Involuntary Sexual Mutilation in the United States" in G. C. Denniston and M. E. Milos, eds., Sexual Mutilations: A Human Tragedy (New York: Plenum Press, 1997), 35.

11. A B. Hyman and M. H. Brownstein, "Tyson's 'Glands": Ectopic Sebaceous Glands and Papillomatosis Penis," Archives of Dermatology 99 (1969): 31-37.

12. A. Ahmed and A. W. Jones, "Apocrine Cystadenoma: A Report of Two Cases Occurring on the Prepuce, "British Journal of Demmatology 81 (1969): 899-901.

13. G. N. Weiss et al., "The Distribution and Density of Langerhans Cells in the Human Prepuce: Site of a Diminished Immune Response?" Israel Journal of Medical Sciences 29 (1993): 42-43.

14. P. J. Flower et al., "An Immunopathologic Study of the Bovine Prepuce," Veterinary Pathology 20 (1983): 189-202.

15. Z. Halata and B. L. Munger, "The Neuroanatomical Basis for the Protopathic Sensibility of the Human Glans Penis," Brain Research 371 (1986): 205-230.

16. J. R. Taylor et al., "The Prepuce: Specialized Mucosa of the Penis and Its Loss to Circumcision," British Journal of Urology 77 (1996): 291-295.

17. H. C. Bazett et al., "Depth, Distribution and Probable Identification in the Prepuce of Sensory End-Organs Concerned in Sensations of Temperature and Touch; Themometic Conductivity," Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry 27 (1932): 489-517.

18. D. Ohmori, "Ueber die Entwicklung der Innervation der Genitalapparate als Peripheren Aufnahmeapparat der Genitalen Reflexe," Zeitschriht fuer Anatomie and Entwicklungspeschichte 70 (1924): 347-410.

19. A. De Girolamo and A. Cecio, "Contributo alla Conoscenza dell'innervazione Sensitiva del Prepuzio Nell'uomo," Bollettino delta Societa Italiana de Biologia Sperimentak 44 (1968): 1521-1522.

20. A. S. Dogiel, "Die Nervenendigungen in der Haut der aeusseren Genitalorgane des Menschen," Archiv fuer Mikroskopische Anatomie 41 (1893): 585-612.

21. A. Bourlond and R. K. Winkelmann, "L'innervation du Prepuce chez le Nouveau-ne," Archives Beiges de Demmatologie et de Syphiligraphie 21 (1965): 139-153.

22. R. K. Winkelmann, "The Erogenous Zones: Their Nerve Supply and Its Significance," Proceedings of the Staff Meetings of the Mayo Clinic 34 (1959): 39-47.

23. R. K. Winkelmann, "The Cutaneous Innervation of Human Newborn Prepuce," Journal of Investigative Demtotology 26 (1956): 53-67.

24. R. Hausmann et al., "The Forensic Value of the Immunohistochemical Detection of Estrogen Receptors in Vaginal Epithelium," International Journal of Legal Medicine 109 (1996): 10-30.

25. See Note 12.

26. American Academy of Pediatrics, Newboms: Care of the Uncircumcised Penis Guidelines for Parents (Elk Grove Village, IL: American Academy of Pediatrics, 1994).

27. See Note 1.

28. See Note 1.

29. S. A. Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh, Jehovah, His Cousin Allah, and Sexual Mutilations," in Sexual Mutilations A Human Tragedy, eds. G. C. Denniston and M. F. Milos (New York: Plenum Press, 1997), 41-62.

30. National Center for Health Statistics of the United States Department of Health and Human Services, 1994.

31. See Note 17.

32. G. I Klauber and J. Boyle, "Preputial Skin-Bridging: Complication of Circumcision," Urology 3 (1974): 722-723.

33. J. P. Gearhart, "Complications of Pediatric Circumcision," in Urologic Complications, Medical and Surgical, Adult and Pediatric, ed. E. E. Marshall (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1986), 387-396.

34. R. D. Talarico and J. E. Jasaitis, "Concealed Penis: A Complication of Neonatal Circumcision," Journal of Urology 110 (1973): 732-733.

35. R. Persad et al., "Clinical Presentation and Pathophysiology of Meatal Stenosis Following Circumcision," British Journal of Urology 75 (1995): 90-91.

36. A. Taddio et al., "The Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Responses during Vaccination in Boys," Lancet 345 (1995): 291-292.

37. A. Taddio et al., "The Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," Lancet 349 (1997): 599-603.

38. J. W. Prescott, "Genital Pain vs. Genital Pleasure: Why the One and Not the Other" Truth Seeker 1 (1989): 14-21.

39. R. Goldman, Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma (Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997), 139-175.

40. M. Terris et al, "Relation of Circumcision to Cancer of the Cervix," American Joumal of Obstetrics and Gynecology 117 (1973): 1056-1065.

41. C J. Cold et al., "Carcinoma in Situ of the Penis in a 76-Year-old Circumcised Man," Journal of Family Practice 44 (1997): 407-410.

42. M. Frisch et al., "Falling Incidence of Penis Cancer in an Uncircumcised Population (Denmark 1943-90)," British Medical Journal 311 (1995): 1471.

43. B. Donovan et al., "Male Circumcision and Common Sexually Transmissible Diseases in a Developed Nation Setting," Genitourinary Medicine 70 (1994): 317-320.

44. G L Smith et al., "Circumcision as a Risk Factor for Urethritis in Racial Groups,"American Journal of Public Health 77 (1987): 452-454.

45. L. S. Cook et al., "CIincal Presentation of Genital Warts among Circumcised and Uncircumcised Heterosexual Men Attending an Urban STD Clinic," Genitourinary Medicine 69 (1993): 262-264.

46. I. Bassett et al., "Herpes Simplex Virus Type 2 Infection of Heterosexual Men Attending a Sexual Health Centre," Medical Journal of Australia 160 (1994): 697-700.

47. E. O. Laumann et al., "Circumcision in the United States: Prevalence, Prophylactic Effects, and Sexual Practice," Journal of the American Medical Association 277 (1997): 1052-1057.

48. W. E. Gee and J. S. Ansel, "Neonatal Circumcision: A Ten-year Overview With Comparison of the Gomco Clamp and the Plastibell Device," Pediatrics 58 (1976): 824-827.

49. G. W. Kaplan, "Complications of Circumcision," Urologic Clinics of North America 10 (1983): 543-549.

50. S. J. Sussman et al., "Fournier's Syndrome: Report of Three Cases and Review of the Literature," American Journal of Diseases of Children 132 (1978): 1189-1191.

51. B. V. Kirkpatrick and D. V. Eitzman, "Neonatal Septicemia after Circumcision," Clinical Pediatrics 13 (1974): 767-768.

52. J. M. Scurlock and R J. Pemberton, "Neonatal Meningitis and Circumcision," Medical Journal of Australia 1 (1977):332-334.

53. G. R. Gluckman et al., "Newborn Penile Glans Amputation during Circumcision and Successful Reattachment," Journal of Urology 153 (1995): 778-779.

54. B. S. Strimling, "Partial Amputation of Glans Penis during Mogen Clamp Circumcision,"Pediatrics 87 (1996): 906-907.

55. J. Shemman et al., Circumcision: Successful Glandular Reconstruction and Survival Following Traumatic Amputation," Journal of Urology 156 (1996): 842-844.

56. J. R. Sharpe and R. P. Finney, "Electrocautery Circumcision,"Urology 19 (1982): 228.

57. C. K. Pearlman, "Caution Advised on Electrocautery Circumcisions," Urology 19 (1982): 453.

58. C. K. Pearlman, "Reconstruction Following Iatrogenic Burn of the Penis" Journal of Pediatric Surgery 11 (1976): 121-122.

59. J. P. Gearhart and J. A. Rock, "Total Ablation of the Penis after Circumcision with Electrocautery: A Method of Management and Long-Term Followup," Journal of Urology 142 (1989): 799-801.

60. M. Diamond and H. K. Sigmundson, "Sex Reassignment at Birth: LongTerm Review and Clinical Implications," Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine 151(1997): 298-304.

61. J. Money, "Ablatio Penis: Normal Male Infant Sex-Reassigned as a Girl," Archives of Sexual Behavior 4 (1975): 65-71.

62. D. A. Gilbert et al, "Phallic Construction in Prepubertal and Adolescent Boys," Journal of Urology 149 (1993): 1521-1526.

63. R. S. Thompson, "Routine Circumcision in the Newborn: An Opposing View," Journal of Family Practice 31 (1990): 189-196.

64. T. E. Wiswell, "Circumcision Circumspection," New England Journal of Medicine 336 (1997): 1244-1245.

65. R N. Emde et al., "Stress and Neonatal Sleep," Psychosomatic Medicine 33 (1971): 491-497.

66. R. E. Marshall et al., "Circumcision: II. Effects upon Mother-Infant Interaction," Early Human Development 7 (1982): 367-374.

67. Committee on Bioethics, "Informed Consent, Parental Permission, and Assent in Pediatric Practice," Pediatrics 95 (1995): 314-317.

For More Information

Organizations

Doctors Opposing Circumcision (DOC)
2442 N.W. Market Street, Suite 42
Seattle, WA 98107 206-368-8358
weber.u.washington.edu/~gcd/DOC/

The National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC)
Box 2512
San Anselmo, CA 949792512
415-488-9883
www.nocirc.org

The National Organization to Halt the Abuse and Routine Mutilation of Males (NOHARMM)
PO Box 460795
San Francisco, CA 94146-0795
415-826-9351
www.nohammm.org

Nurses for the Rights of the Child
369 Montezuma, Suite 354
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-989-7377
www.cirp.org/nrc/

Books
Available from bookstores, from the publishers, or from NOCIRC

Bigelow, Jim, Ph. D. The Joy of Uncircumcising! Exploring Circumcision: History, Myths Psychology, Restoration, Sexual Pleasure and Human Rights. 2nd ed. Aptos, CA: Hourglass, 1995.

Denniston, George C., MD, MPH, and Marilyn Fayre Milos, RN, eds. Sexual Mutilations: A Human Tragedy (Proceedings of the Fourth International Symposium on Sexual Mutilations, Lausanne, Switzerland, 1996.) New York: Plenum Press, 1997.

Goldman, Ronald, PhD. Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma: How an American Cultural Practice Affects Infants and Ultimately Us All. Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997.

Goldman, Ronald, PhD. Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective. 2nd ed. Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997.

O'Mara, Peggy, ed. Circumcision: The Rest of the Story-A Selection of Articles, Letters and Resources 1979-1993. Santa Fe, NM: Mothering, 1993.

Ritter, Thomas J., MD, and George C. Denniston, MD. Say No to Circumcisions: 40 Compelling Reasons Why You Should Respect His Birthright and Keep Your Son Whole. 2nd ed. Aptos, CA: Hourglass, 1996.

Video

Whose Body, Whose Rights? Examining the Ethics and the Human Rights Issue of Infant Male Circumcision. Award-winning documentary. 56 min. VHS.

Personal use: VideoFinders, 1-800-343-4727

Educational Facilities:
UC Center for Media and Independent Learning
2000 Center Street 4th Floor
Berkeley CA 94704
510-642-0460

For World Wide Web preview and more ordering information:
www.cirp.org/CIRP/pages/reviews/whosebody/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Return to main page.
 
I was cut at 23

As you have probably noticed (or you soon will once you start looking) - on this subject you will not get an objective answer. I'm not going to be objective either. I had to be circumcised at age 23 after suffering recurrent balanitis. I was and still am very clean and hygeine conscious. Two showers a day did nothing to prevent this. Now - this may be just an individual quirk - I'm sure there are thousands of uncut guys out there who've never experienced this, so I wouldn't use it as a reason to circumcise your child.

But for every argument you read for or against, ask yourself how many have been posted by a guy who has been sexually active with and without a foreskin. It feels better now. By far. Yes - the head of the penis dries out a little without a foreskin, but all you need to do is put it somewhere nice and moist and it's all good.
Again - this is probably very individual, but in my opinion as someone who has tried it both ways, I can honestly say I would never go back.

In terms of appearance, you should be aware that ANY surgery is going to leave a better cosmetic appearance if it done at a younger age. Circumcision done in infancy leaves a barely (if at all) noticeable scar. In adulthood it (the scar) is much more prominent and the skin never achieves that seamless look. If appearance is a concern for you, you need to consider this. It's also a considerably more complicated and expensive procedure as you get older.

Finally, and for me, most importantly, if the other kids your son will grow up with are mainly cut, he could well feel the odd one out. I know someone has said that kids will always find something to tease someone about. Sure. But getting a daily teasing about your dick is pretty tough. We form our self concept and self identity by referring to our immediate social group - our family and friends and schoolmates - and comparing what we see in ourselves to what we see outside to see how well we "match". If your son is the only one who is going to have a foreskin, it'll be tough. Likewise, if he's the only one going to be cut.

Kids can be cruel and I'd probably use this as the bottom line if I was trying to convince myself what I would do in this situation. I went through my junior school years terrified because I would regularly get mobbed by a group of kids, pinned to the wall behind the toilet block, and have my pants pulled down around my ankles while they all looked at and made fun of my penis. I was too embarassed to tell my parents and the one time I told my teacher it just made things worse. No amount of kindly parental advice advocating individuality was ever going to repair damage of that order.

So - you don't have a right to impose your aesthetic beliefs on your child. But you do have a right to ensure that your child grows up to be as comfortable and as happy with himself as he can be and if this means a small operation (that these days usually involves just tying the foreskin with a string and waiting for it to drop off by itself) then do it. If it means leaving him alone and hoping that like most uncircumcised men he'll be medically fine, then do that. Just don't make his youth any harder than it needs to be.

Peace and goodluck

galain
 
I feel we have it because when are ancesters would walk around naked it would drag or rub against things... Now we wear clothes and dont need it.
 
It was I

I made the long post on the circumcision issue before - I recommend you have a good read of this thread. And what a surprise? - there was not a single response from the pro-cutters involving medicine. Once you cut that's it for the little guy. To all those who claim HIV transmission - that is bullshit and if they can point to any verifiable evidence then I'd love to hear from them.

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2342&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

"Nature is a possessive mistress, and whatever mistakes she makes about the structure of the less essential organs such as the brain and stomach, in which she is not much interested, you can be sure that she knows best of the genital organs." - Sir James Spence
 
Europe

Most of Europe is anti-circ , I don't know any guys from Ireland who've been cut. Maybe we're third world huh Hamhock? Finally Mohawk you're outer-ears are also "unneccassary" so while you're choppin off bits off the kids genitals then make sure to give the skull the same scrape. Sorry - this is a bit of an emotional issue for me - one of my mates is from Nigeria (born in London) , he's a medical student and although very wealthy is VERY PISSED about what was done to him as a child.
 
Mandinka- if mohawkmuscle really cared about his sons well being he would have went the the url i posted (http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/ ) and read the hundreds of articles and medical studies on the subject, among those, the ones that state that there is a higher risk of getting hiv if you are circumcised- with footnotes to boot. But as i can see from his reply ("... Now we wear clothes and dont need it.") he didnt go to the link and didnt read up on the sublect, but instead is letting some idiots make up his mind who say that uncircumcised men look stupid. I really cant argue with that logic. Perhaps the reason 60% of americans are circumcised is because 60% of americans are idiots???

mohawkmuscle- circumcised men have a much higher risk of getting penile cancer. but i bet you're willing to take that risk so his penis looks better (in your opinion).
 
Chrome

Yeah Chrome ,
I found that in the past people on e/f rarely read through very long posts so I generally copy and paste the most controversial bits to get them a bit incensed and then (please Jesus) they'll be bothered to do some research on their own. BTW , I thought that your post was excellent and when this topic comes up again I'll probably refer to it. The stuff about retraction of the penis is VERY IMPORTANT too , please take note. I never retracted mine until about 17 and I never had a problem.
This issue is a little different though - we're talking about someone's flesh and blood here - ya can't be responsible enough. The reason for modern circumcision basically boils down to both ignorance and arrogance - we've been doing it this way and we don't care what others say cos we're the best. That's why there are numerous sexual mutilation claims building in the U.S. on this issue - once they win one , it will trigger a landslide and that will be the end of this barborous practice.
 
Medical Neccessity

MODERN medicine (not the third world kind you Yanks) is moving towards non-invasive procedures and for chaps with extra-tight foreskin , it is now common for the ailment to be treated with topical steroids. As I stated above , if one's outer ear were infected then you could simply excise the entire exposed portion with no immediate loss in performance but this would be considered bizarre . Circumcision is no different I'm afraid, hopefully things will change , I'm glad that Weapon X , who has posted incredibly detailed and well thought out information in the past stated that there is no medical reason for the procedure. But I don't think for any thinking people that religion justifies choppin off any part of the human body.
 
It's there for a reason. Humans adapted to be the way they are, because it has biological advantages....

.... it looks better? Yeesh. Try explaining that to your boy when he's squealing in agony.

Since it's becoming less and less common, I don't think anyone is gunna make fun of a kid in the locker room for being uncircumcised. Who is walking around the locker room checking out every guy's penis and making fun of the uncircumcised ones, anyway? I think the kid who is doing that, is the kid we have to worry about.

The foreskin was put there for a reason. Leave it there.
 
It may be naive to think that way but most woman I speak to perfer uncut. I dont want to harm my child, hell I was circumsized. Its a common practice.
 
Is it attractive?

Mohawk ,
The pic is of a guy with a pretty small piece of equipment , I doubt having it shorn would make it look much better. You'll forgive me for not posting my dick , cos I don't think it's the right place for such things but believe me , no woman has ever given me a problem or even mentioned it (including Americans) - maybe it was because I was mostly erect , I don't know.
But in any case , in many countries of the world women undergo circumicsion for exactly the same false medical reasons as men do in the states , and their societies have become to accept that cut vaginas represent a more aesthetic state. Now imagine if American women were told that they had to get their bits scraped off cos it looks better to men , I don't think that we even need to go there. And why should it be any different for your son. So stand up for the little tyke , don't let any goddamn fuckin societal influenced doctors or nurses damage his business. Do not let them forcibly retract the penis - it's almost guarenteed to CAUSE an infection. There is so much ignorance on this topic , and worse it is because people have chosen to be ignorant - do right by your kid. Good luck.
 
Re: Europe

Mandinka said:
I don't know any guys from Ireland who've been cut. Maybe we're third world huh Hamhock?
Third World Nation are classified as those with:
-high birth rates
-economic dependence on the advanced countries
-poverty
-economically underdeveloped
-high incidence of hidden turtle head dicks

If Ireland isn't third world, it certainly fullfills several of the requirements for classification as such.
 
Re: Hamhock

Mandinka said:
Y'mean like Switzerland pal? (also anti-circ)
The Swiss lack principles and are fearful people, therefore their position on circumcision is understandable.
 
The Swiss lack principles and are fearful people, therefore their position on circumcision is understandable.

Have you ever heard of the Swiss guards?. BTW you just called 5 of the 7 Worlds richest nations Third World. Even your own American Society of Paediatricians refuses to endorse the practice of routine circumcision. I suggest you educate yourself before broadcasting more ignorance or causing pain to those not yet able to defend themselves.
 
Mandinka said:
Have you ever heard of the Swiss guards?. BTW you just called 5 of the 7 Worlds richest nations Third World. Even your own American Society of Paediatricians refuses to endorse the practice of routine circumcision. I suggest you educate yourself before broadcasting more ignorance or causing pain to those not yet able to defend themselves.
I didn't call the Swiss 3rd World, I can just understand why those buggers wouldn't want to cut that nasty foreskin of their dicks. It's a 3rd World tendency just like teenage pregnancy is, poverty, ect----you obviously don't have to be a 3rd World nation to practice habits that are nasty and difficult to look at. The point is, why leave your dick looking like an elephant trunk (no reference to size) instead of something cleaner and more attractive. I guess if it is natural, we also shouldn't shave, bathe, build muscles, style & cut our hair, or anything else that is unnatural even though it improves our appearance & is healthier.
 
Ok , One last time I hope.

Take a look at my last post - your comment on the "lack of principles of the Swiss" is unfounded - the Swiss guards are the highest paid and most elite group of mercenaries in the World.
The practice of circumcision is in fact far more predominant in the true Third World (take a look at the continent of Africa) where it is commonly performed on both sexes.
The question as to why an individual should not interfere with the intact penis has well and truly been answered within this thread and you should take the time to investigate the references quoted. As I stated in my previous post , "Even your own American Society of Paediatricians refuses to endorse the practice of routine circumcision. ".
Aesthetics have little to do with the matter and are simply conventions- in Europe the circumcised penis is considered to be mutilated , in Jamaica obese women are favoured sexually and in America women who insert polymers into their breasts are considered more aesthetically pleasing. If someone wishes to pierce their head (!?) then society's only concern is that the do so by their own free will,that they are able to exercise that will and thirdly that they are aware of the negative aspects.
The foreskin has a very important function, you simply are not able to accept that fact - I suggest you seek medical advice on the matter , the assertion that it is more hygenic has been disproved - the statisitcs on UTIs (urinary tract infections) in Europe vs. the U.S.A. back up that claim which in any case are more common in women than men. Live with it.
 
I have been kinda fucking around with this thread because there is no right answer, it is a completely subjective topic and a matter of personal preference. However, since you have attempted to make you argument as a factual one, I must refute some of your misinformation as a matter of principle.

1. Using the Swiss Guard as an example of the Swiss being a principled nation is a fallacious use of inductive reasoning as they are hardly representative of the whole. If you would like some facts on the matter, track where stolen Holocaust money sat for 50 years, study which country's international banking law allows for criminal laundering and terrorist sponsorship to occur legally and covertly. The neutrality of the Swiss is another indication of a lack of principles and this was made very evident during WWII with their relationship with Nazi Germany. They also harbor a number of powerful white collar criminals, including the gentleman Clinton pardoned.

2. Female circumsion is a practice done primarily by Muslims. Male circumsion is not related nor practiced as a rule by those who use female circumcision as a method of suppressing female sexuality. Somalia and several middle Eastern countries are the most ardent proponents of this practice and are also countries that do not circumsize their males.

3. Although Jamaica has many obese women, obesity is not the primary trait for men to find them attractive. Black men in general, tend to prefer more voluptous women than white or Asian and do not find obesity as repulsive as other races might.

4. American women are hardly the only women on the planet getting fake boobs.

5. "The foreskin has a very important function" This is just silly now that men wear pants.
 
Great ,
at least you are making an attempt now to narrow down the argument , albeit you are (predictably) avoiding the nub of the issue - that this is a surgery which is wholy unneccessary and in fact damaging.
Earlier in the thread you commented:
That uncircumsized shit is 3rd World man
and furthermore:
instead of growing up ashamed
and of course this gem:
its just nasty with the foreskin----looks like a monkey dick or something, plus chicks prefer a visable head
so clearly to comment now that you feel there is no right answer constitutes a certain amount of horse-manure on your part. In addition you post no reference as to your assertion that
:
chicks prefer a visable head
, perhaps a poll of your immediate family will provide you with the unbiased random sample that you seek.
To address your previous post directly:
1. You posted that the Swiss were both fearful and unprincipled , I believe the Swiss guards takes care of the fearful part. On the point of view of being unprincipled - did not your populace elect democratically your Mr. Clinton?. People in glass houses perhaps should not project stones randomly.
2.
Male circumsion is not related nor practiced as a rule by those who use female circumcision as a method of suppressing female sexuality. Somalia and several middle Eastern countries are the most ardent proponents of this practice and are also countries that do not circumsize their males.
Not only do such countries routinely perform male circumcision (as all Muslims) , but IN ADDITION it is practised at the onset of adolescence usually with the poor kid in question being cut with flint knives. I await your challenge to this but please do it with references.
3. Points 3 and 4 relate to societal conventions - the reasons why they are adopted are neither here nor there. Routine circumcision was introduced to your country for the sole reason of discouraging masturbation , check it . It was never intended as a medical remedy , furhtermore the analogy to breast enlargement surgery is all the more telling since both commonly contradict the hippocratic oath all medical personnel are required to take.
4. Pants have zippers don't they? In addition to an out and out proterctive sheath from abrasion (e.g. from underwear) the foreskin prevents the glans drying out - read chrome's large post on this , maybe this time with an open mind.
 
You took some of my comments a little too seriously. Anyways, I was just sitting here admiring how attractive my penis is, so I called my mother to thank her for having me circumsized as an infant.
 
admiring how attractive my penis is
Yes , I do admit to being surprised at your endless fascination\admiration with\for the male genitalia. Just don't stand anywhere close to me in the gym pal.
I'm glad that your emasculation has brought yourself and your supposed guardian closer.
 
Im uncircumcised. ITs ok. There is smega build up which makes my cock stink if i dont wash it daily. THis can be a pain.

Truthfully, I wouldve preferred if my parents cut me as a baby because:

1) its cleaner - the chicks like clean dicks
2) i think it looks better


But everyones different. My motivation is i like having sex with alot of girls and dont really care if i have it or not, so its a nuisence (my spelling is shit). Your son may grow up not wanting to fuck a ton of girls, so perhaps he'd feel violated or wish he had a foreskin.

Why wouldnt i get cut now?

Reduction in sensation. 10-15% of sensation from the dick is derived from the foreskin + when you cut the foreskin off, the head of the penis (corona :) ) becomes slightly calloused.

I talked to my buddy whose circumcised and says he wish he had it intacked. He's a relativily emotionally healthy chap with few issues compared to most, so i give his opinion weight. But , in the end its a personal thing.
 
I'm perfectly happy with my hooded friend!
 
DcupSheepNipples said:
Hell no its fucking mutilation. And so is female genital mutilation.

Amen, brother.
The foreskin has a purpose. The structure that forms the foreskin is the same structure that, in girls, becomes the clitoral hood.
Let's not start chopping things off our kids' genitals. M'kay?
 
PHP:
The foreskin has a purpose. The structure that forms the foreskin is the same structure that, in girls, becomes the clitoral hood.
Bump for the intelligence of my Jewish brother above.
 
snip it. like the boy'll remember any pain when he grows up. please some children have more painful surgeries really the only reason i could think of to have it done these days is esthetic appearence............it is more appealing. :)
 
please some children have more painful surgeries
Now how would you know how painful it is ?, you should see the video , usually the kid turns blue.
Ask yourself this question - if you were living in Somalia , would it be ok to cut the skin over the clitoris on your daughter just cos u think it might look better?
 
i think its pretty clear that starbrn's parents dropped him on his head pretty often as a child; their reasoning was that he wouldnt remember it so its okay....btw, starbrn, they didnt drop you hard enough to do any good.....
 
Wow. Apparently I was mistaken here. I though this was a thread re: people’s opinions about circumcision NOT a thread to attack people personally for stating theirs which some don’t agree w/. Hmmmm …. I find that odd. I was merely stating that this day in age there is not “hygienic” reason to have your child circumcised. If the boy/man (whatever) cleans themselves properly then issues w/ the foreskin trapping bacteria, etc. shouldn’t be a problem (for the most part, there may be a few exceptions medically speaking) therefore it now comes down to being an esthetic question if you want it done. Another funny thing where pain is concerned, if you have been circumcised when you were a newborn (considering that is what were talking about here, this thread is regarding a child to be born in Dec.) I can’t imagine how you could possibly remember the pain. Your mind wouldn’t have been developed enough to retain that as a conscious memory possibly a sub-conscious pain receptor memory but not one that would affect your life. So next time you should maybe think twice about attacking me or anyone else personally for stating an opinion that is totally unrelated and not directed towards you personally. I simply was stating I find circumcised penis’ more attractive to look at all the time rather than just when it’s hard. Which brings me to my second and final point I’m a woman. Try a little background first before jumping to your conclusions. If what I said in my 1-2 sentence abbreviated post really made you that angry then I really think you need to be taking a look at how you deal w/ situations. Because I find what you wrote absurd, appalling and way out of line.

Have a nice day
:D
 
So, just because a baby can't remember the pain later in life, does that make it okay?

Sorry, I'm not REALLY against circumcision or anything.... I don't think it should be done, but whatever the parent decides.... but if you were to inflict uncessary pain on your newborn for other reasons and justify it by saying "He won't remember it".... I think you'll get a pretty swift visit from the abuse and neglect people.
 
I don't need to justify myself to anyone else who doesn't know me. You have no idea who I am where I'm coming from in life so don't cast you're judgments. This discussion is as sane as fighting w/ a vegan about meat or a devout religious person about another view. I give up it's over. But I'm quite sure the children’s aid society or whomever your local "abuse and neglect people" are have much more important cases to follow and things to do than chase after parents getting their children circumcised. Besides is it better to lie about why you're doing it. Because if it's not religious and it's definitely not medical than what other reasons are there? I'm not being sarcastic I truly would like to be enlightened because I've only heard the 3 medical, religious or esthetic. :confused: :)
 
Starbrn

Hi,
Actually you should not really have taken offence. If you think about it we are discussing chopping bits off childrens genitals entirely without their (and often their parents informed) consent. So if ya can't get a bit upset about this then I ask ya!?

Anyway you are incorrect in stating that the medical issue has been dealt with since it does not come down on your side of the issue. There are VERY firm medical reasons for both maintaining the penis intact and not retracting , Chrome has a very long post on the first page documenting it.

On to the next point , there are now several studies which both confirm that trauma takes place and that the effects of that trauma can be felt in later life (besides the obvious fact that their anatomical rights have been violated). I refer you to http://www.nocirc.org/articles/rhinehart1.html .

I was aware that you are female as a matter of fact - I typically like to find out a few things from the member's previous posts to understand their views to build up a profile of the person's thinking. In fact it was because of the fact that you are female that I asked you a question over what you would do if faced in a similar situation with regard to your own (female) child in Somalia where both local medical advice and custom/aesthetics dictates that you should circumcise her. Unfortunately you have chosen to ignore the question.

Finally this board itself provides its participants with a forum to discuss "where they are coming from in life" in order that they may back up their points. Please do so.
 
Mandinka

You've made your points eloquently and well. I've already added my opinion and experiences to this topic so I won't rehash them again. I was just curious if you knew that the organisation you are posting your links to - NOCIRC- is quite rabidly anticirc - so much so I think that they are hurting themselves in getting their point across. It is as full of foreskin fetishists as serious members and there are many comments that come out of that group that are more than spurious.

They are the group that financed an English study a couple of years ago which polled women about their preferences and came to the conclusion that women uniformly preferred an uncircumcised penis in a partner. What they didn't say was that the polling was exclusively held at NOCIRC meetings throughout the country. My cousin left the group in protest at that and you won't find a more strident opponent of circumcision than herself.

I'm not knocking your opinion, I just didn't know if you were familiar with the machinations of NOCIRC. I don't know of any completely agenda free information on circumcision anyway, but the way NOCIRC present their side of the story is often not completely honest.

Cheers

galain
 
Galain

Hi ,
You're right about no-circ , they're a bit nuts but like I said earlier this is an issue that rightly upsets people. I got into this issue primarily since I went out with a German girlfriend for two years, I don't know if you know any German women but believe me their men are entirely passive,so much so that the women are almost entirely dominant . Female circumcision is a big issue in Germany (although it does not take place there) since feminism is so strong but unfortunately they refuse to give a shit for the male version which is at least as bad (unless one is referring to pharonic circumcision which involves excision of the clitoris itself!). Anyway she was a bit of a man-hater which got my goat up and I knew of a big black dude from Nigeria who used my gym but never took showers there - you guessed it - he was circumcised and was more than a bit upset about it too. So I read as much on the topic as I could, there's actually quite a lot of medical research done into it - most of it is available on the net since it's gonna become a political hot potato very soon.
So to abbreviate I could have bothered to look up the URL for the AAP's latest findings on the long-term effects of circumcision but I took the short-cur of going through the slightly nutty no-circ site.
I believe their heart is in the right place (protection of the rights and integrity of the child).
Cheers to you too.
 
Galain

I just went through your previous posts on the issue. You were circumcised voluntarily at the age of 23/24 on a doctor's advice. May I ask exactly what the conditions/symptoms were and for what reason surgery was suggested? Perhaps a PM is more discreet. I hope I have not offended you bro in bringing this up.
 
Mandinka

No offense my friend. I've copied the first paragraph from my previous post below.

- As you have probably noticed (or you soon will once you start looking) - on this subject you will not get an objective answer. I'm not going to be objective either. I had to be circumcised at age 23 after suffering recurrent balanitis. I was and still am very clean and hygeine conscious. Two showers a day did nothing to prevent this. Now - this may be just an individual quirk - I'm sure there are thousands of uncut guys out there who've never experienced this, so I wouldn't use it as a reason to circumcise your child. -


That was 8 years ago. I had tried everything to that point but I was living in the tropics and just couldn't seem to shake the infections. When the doctor recommended surgery I was a bit nervous but I didn't want to keep fucking around with steroid creams and antibiotics and so forth, so I went ahead with it.

BTW, your reference to German women had me in stitches. My lady of 9 years is German! It's been an ongoing battle to try and keep her from pulling my balls off and putting them in jar to admire while she runs our lives, but then, I fell in love with her because of her strength and because she know's what she wants.

You're from Ireland right? How's life over there? I love the place dearly and I'd kill to get back there one day.

Cheers

galain
 
Dude ,
I must confess that I went through all your posts and felt a right (Irish) fool when I discovered you were with a Fraulein yourself. On the ball removing issue , man oh man have I been there , sure it's a kick for a while but Jesus they can be wicked (especially with cheating) but I hope that things for you work out great.
So you were on the antibiotics and steroid creams , well I'm surprised that they did not succeed and circ did but oh well. Normally circ does not have a significant effect on balanitis but hey , if you're happy then that's good for me.
Anyway Galain , I wish you truly the best of luck with the Fraulein (don't let her kill you like I did mine) and hope it goes great. You are always wellcome in my house pal.
Ireland these days has changed much from my youth, Bouncer would kill me for saying it but people have become so fucking mean in the cities. I know it's the same the world over but I always thought this place was different. The rural areas are still the same , if you were lost and knocked on a door , they'd give you a bed for the night and dinner in exchange for a story or two , and that's no exaggeration. And oh yeah ,everything has become fucking expensive.
What's it like in Oz at the moment? I hear that the economy has taken a bit of a downer.
We'll see youse soon for pint of plain,
Rob
 
Not possible...

Mandinka

Unfriendly and rude Irish people? This just cannot be true? Well, I know that sometimes you guys aren't too enamoured of each other, but I can't bear to think that the Irish are now hating everyone! As my long dead great granny would say - "Jaysus!".


Australia is still lovely and still largely a joke in world affairs, even if we try and kid ourselves that we're important. The economy is shite - I think 1 Irish or British pound is worth something like 1 million Aussie dollars (it feels llike something in that region).

I'll be sure to look you up when I get back over that way. I have no family there anymore (and as I'm half Chinese I have a hell of a time convincing people I ever did), but i have a dear friend in Cork who I've promised to visit as soon as I can.

take it easy buddy

James
 
That uncircumsized shit is 3rd World man. Him and the little Dominican kid are going to be the only ones in his class with hidden turtle dicks.

Cut the foreskin, don't you want Jr. getting a blow job at Prom instead of growing up ashamed to showcase his pointy little lint-filled urine-soaked monkey dick?


BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH:rolly: :rolly:

THATS THE FUNNIEST SHIT I EVER READ


urine-soaked monkey dick
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

MY 2 CENTS: 1) YOUR SON WONT REMEMBER THE "PAIN" I DIDN'T
2) WHAT LACK OF SENSATION????
3) HEAD CHEESE=YUCK
 
Well, I can.... as a non-circumcised male.... say that:

a) I can feel certain sensation that I don't think would be there if I was circumcised. Because it comes from the foreskin.

b) I'm sure you don't remember the pain. But neither would a 1 year-old after you butt out a cigarette in his eye. I don't think inflicting pain on someone is justified simply because they won't remember it, especially when they can't consent to it.

c) Head cheese? I've never seen it.... never. I'll check again right now, just to make sure..... nope.

To the other person, I didn't mean that the abuse and neglect people would come and investigate you for cirumcising your son.... what I meant was "he won't remember it" is no justification because any other act which inflicts pain on someone, even if they won't remember it, it's still illegal. So that's not justification.... other things may pass as justification, such as religion or medical reasons. But "he won't remember it" doesn't cut it.... I don't think so anyway. That was my point.
 
This post is 8 monthes old!!!

I had it done. My son is fine...

End the tread!!!! HAHAH!
 
HamHock said:
That uncircumsized shit is 3rd World man. Him and the little Dominican kid are going to be the only ones in his class with hidden turtle dicks.

Cut the foreskin, don't you want Jr. getting a blow job at Prom instead of growing up ashamed to showcase his pointy little lint-filled urine-soaked monkey dick?

Really the United States is the only western countries where non Jews in great numbers are circumcised.
 
So are you saying she's just an obstacle not a barrier???????
 
I was in the Army! I think I'd conquer any obstacle you threw my way ;)
 
BronzedGoddess said:
I was in the Army! I think I'd conquer any obstacle you threw my way ;)
Good... I love tough chicks!


How come your not on MSN?
 
;)


come back to MSN so we dont have to keep bringing up this 8 monthold thread about circumcision.
 
I think circumsized is neater. I like the mushroom look
 
the most important reason of all is that most chicks preferred a circumcised cock....and that settles the argument as far as I'm concerned....to hell with what some stodgy old doctors say (while under pressure from the government to eliminate costs)
 
HamHock said:
That uncircumsized shit is 3rd World man. Him and the little Dominican kid are going to be the only ones in his class with hidden turtle dicks.

Cut the foreskin, don't you want Jr. getting a blow job at Prom instead of growing up ashamed to showcase his pointy little lint-filled urine-soaked monkey dick?
ROFL!
 
HamHock said:
That uncircumsized shit is 3rd World man. Him and the little Dominican kid are going to be the only ones in his class with hidden turtle dicks.

Cut the foreskin, don't you want Jr. getting a blow job at Prom instead of growing up ashamed to showcase his pointy little lint-filled urine-soaked monkey dick?

whoever had a dick that looked like that, needs a bar of soap, and a shower. thats just not right.
 
Ok, this is a womans point of view, It makes no difference in the look when the skin is pulled back. It makes no difference in the feel when its in side. and as far as the taste of it, its mmm good.
If you keep it clean theres no difference
 
I like cut men. I dont even know if I have ever seen a non circumsized man..and BBF.....this is not an invitation to see ur weenie again:)
 
Mandinka2 said:
Uneducated people with no desire to educate themselves.... how sad.

How sad it is that u think everbody is uneducated if they don't have the same view as you, I am in USA so I can have my own opinion.
 
sweetnes11 said:


How sad it is that u think everbody is uneducated if they don't have the same view as you, I am in USA so I can have my own opinion.
Quite right too , people like you should continue to circumcise girls in many countries for "medical reasons" , in a manner consistent with their "educated" views. The body is a piece of meat , that is not a view that is a fact , it has evolved to its present state over billions of years , the highest phyla of evolution that we know of are the mammals , all have foreskins and hooded clitorii. Deal with your ignorance.

I am perfectly happy to allow others to dwell within the confines of their stupidity where they do not damage others. This is not such a case.
 
Last edited:
genital mutialtion

for

prudes
muslims
jews

Removes most sensitive skin of penis and de-sensitizes the glans because of friction/exposure to air... at least one study found impotency was higher in circumcized males...
 
And for the record you shouldn't wash your glans with soap...

and the glans is closer in structure to the eyeball... it needs protection...

circumcision is just really fucking stupid... hospitals get a few quid for foreskin also...
 
Top Bottom