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Cholesterol Myths

Fukkenshredded

New member
I notice here on this board a preoccupation with cholesterol levels and their impact on one’s overall health.

While I could go on and on for pages and pages about the myths of cholesterol levels being correlated to heart disease, I think I will just point out a few of the salient points that should be considered by anyone interested in the truth about their cardiovascular condition.

First off, what is cholesterol, specifically? Well, Dorland’s Illustrated Medical Dictionary provides the following:

Cholesterol [chole+ Gr. stereos solid] 1. a A pearly, fat-like steroid alcohol, C27H45OH, crystallizing in the form of leaflets or plates from dilute alcohol, and found in animal fats and oils, bile, blood, brain tissue, milk, yolk of eggs, myelin sheaths of nerve fibers, the liver, kidneys, and adrenal glands. It constitutes a large part of the most frequently occurring type of gallstones and occurs in the atheroma of the arteries, in various cysts, and in carcinomatous tissue. Most of the body's cholesterol is synthesized in the liver, but some is absorbed from the diet. It is a precursor of bile acids and is important in the synthesis of steroid hormones.
Right off, we can see that the actual molecule is an alcohol, NOT a fat or lipid. The misconception that cholesterol is a lipid comes from the fact that cholesterol is transported in the blood inside tiny, roughly spheroid capsules comprised of fats and proteins. These are commonly referred to as lipoproteins. So observe that there is a distinct difference between cholesterol and lipoproteins. The specific structure of these lipoproteins is such that the outside surface is comprised primarily of water soluble proteins and the inner layer comprised of lipids. Keep in mind that the cholesterol molecule itself is water-insoluble, a very important feature that allows cells to function without dissolving in their surroundings.

Anyway, the lipoproteins are referred to as either ‘high density’ or ‘low density’, depending on, duh…their specific density.

Now, what exactly is the difference between HDL and LDL?

You will be surprised to learn that the primary difference is the direction that they travel in the bloodstream. HDL travels from various starting points to the liver, and LDL travels from the liver to the tissues.

See, whenever a cell needs cholesterol, that cholesterol is transported via LDL to that cell. Around 70% of cholesterol in the bloodstream is transported via LDL.

So why is LDL bad?

The answer to that is unclear, but the reason for the belief is that studies show a correlation between high LDL, low HDL profiles and an increased incidence of heart attack.

However, keep in mind that there is nothing conclusively showing a CAUSE AND EFFECT relationship…only a correlation. This is very important to understand.

Consider the fact that exercise lowers LDL levels. Ok, exercise is also beneficial to the heart. So is it the LDL level that is the cause of the benefit, or is it the actual exercise? This question is one that has been brought up by several world renowned doctors and scientists who are questioning the validity of the LDL/HDL model as a CAUSE of heart disease. Their thinking is more along the lines that bad ratios are simply one aspect of existing heart disease, rather than a cause.

One of the most well known and cited studies about cholesterol is the so-called Framingham Study. The trouble is that the study is most often misrepresented and misquoted. It is a point of fact that the study revealed virtually NO difference in heart disease in people with cholesterol levels between 205mg/dL and 294 mg/dL. That represents the vast majority of the population. Moreover, the study found that the difference in people with levels as high as 1200mg/dL was statistically INSIGNIFICANT.

These details were published in the Archives of Internal Medicine in 1992.

The primary reason for all of the cholesterol hype is, of course, revenues. Bear in mind that many of the people who play a major role in the dispersion of so called scientific medical health information also have positions of ownership or investment in the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture cholesterol lowering drugs. Lipitor is, after all, one of the most prescribed medications in America. It’s a huge racket, billions of dollars.

Those of you who are interested in the details of cholesterol myths/misinformation should look into the publications of Dr. Uffe Ravnskov, specifically “The Cholesterol Myths”.

The information that I have presented is a paraphrasing of information published by Karl Loren. I highly recommend that those of you interested in learning the truth about this issue research his publications, as well as those of Dr. Ravnskov.

FS
 
Interesting read/points. I wish I was more educated on the subject to debate this but since I'm not I'll have to go with what I've learned to be true about the ramifications of low HDL levels. When I got my Cholesterol levels checked post-cycle my HDL levels were in the single digits, which is very bad. AAS practically shut down my HDL.
 
Since your not educated you will have to just go with what you've learned about the TRUE ramifications of these levels?

How exactly did you learn this truth?

I cannot tell you how inspired I am to see that my efforts impact others on this board...lol.

That's okay, following the herd is probably safer in the end. What good is actual knowledge in the face of habit? Not much.

Since it is obviously quite pointless to bog down this board with any factual references or actual findings, I will spare the details of how the cause and effect of HDL/LDL levels has not a shred of evidence to support it. What I will do is go ahead and predict what will come next, when you start hearing that there is an actual CAUSE for bad LDL/HDL levels, and that it is NOT animal fats.

Of course the medical community is already quite aware of this fact, but they have drugs to sell.

In the interest of at least educating the board about the potential dangers of some of these drugs, I will offer the following thoughts to consider:

The main arsenal in the drug regimen are a class of drugs called statins.

Article 1 of 2
HEALTH JOURNAL

Cholesterol-Drug Use
Soars, Raising Questions
About the Side Effects
By Tara Parker-Pope

02/01/2002
The Wall Street Journal
Page B1
(Copyright (c) 2002, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)



SOME OF THE most popular drugs in the country lower cholesterol and dramatically reduce heart-attack risk. But what else do they do?

As new government cholesterol standards could triple the number of people taking the drugs to 36 million, doctors and patients want more-solid information on the side effects. The class of drugs known as statins includes blockbuster brands Lipitor, Zocor and Pravachol, among others.

Like all powerful drugs, statins have side effects. The problem is that some of the alleged side effects, such as muscle aches and memory loss, also are common complaints of the elderly.

"Most people taking these drugs are older people," says physician Paul J. Rosch, professor of medicine and psychiatry at New York Medical College, whose wife developed weakness and temporary memory loss after taking a statin . "They think, `Gee, I'm just having a senior moment,' and it's something doctors don't ask about."

Confusing the issue further is the fact that most of the memory-loss evidence is anecdotal. Little independent research has been done on the topic. And most physicians believe the benefits of statins far outweigh any risks or side effects.


DRUG MAKERS flatly dispute the notion that statins contribute to memory problems and some, ironically, are even studying the use of statins to treat Alzheimer's. "There's a lot of evidence that statins improve memory function and no good evidence that it affects memory function" in a negative way, says Rob Scott, vice president of the cardiovascular and metabolic group at Pfizer, maker of Lipitor.

A spokesman for Merck, maker of Zocor, said the drug "has a proven safety and tolerability record" and prevents coronary deaths.

The University of California at San Diego is in the midst of an independent study assessing statin side effects, good and bad. The study, funded by $4.4 million from the National Institutes of Health, ultimately will follow 1,000 patients taking either Zocor, Pravachol or a placebo. All the results are blinded, so doctors don't know whether a complaining patient is taking a drug or a placebo. Some patients have quit the study because of irritability, clouded thinking, or pain.

Beatrice A. Golomb, the UCSD assistant professor of medicine leading the study, says common complaints from patients taking statins include being unable to remember the name of a grandchild, walking into a room and forgetting why you are there, or starting a sentence and being unable to finish. Some complain of personality changes or irritability.

"Because these are the most widely prescribed class of drugs in the United States, we need to be sure we understand the full spectrum of effects," says Dr. Golomb.


WHAT IS KNOWN about statins is that they can dramatically lower cholesterol, and that may be the problem when it comes to side effects. Although cholesterol has been vilified as a culprit in heart disease, it is also the most common organic molecule in the brain. Some researchers theorize that blocking cholesterol production, as statins do, interferes with the brain's performance and causes muddled thinking and memory loss.

Drug makers say the real risk factors of memory problems are heart disease and stroke.

Muscle pain is an undisputed side effect of statins, although estimates on the incidence range from 5% to 30%. One statin , Baycol, was pulled from the market last year after being linked to 100 deaths from a rare muscle-wasting condition called rhabdomyolysis.

However, the type of aching muscle pain most patients report isn't believed to be life-threatening. Paul S. Phillips, director of interventional cardiology at Scripps Mercy Hospital in San Diego, says his research shows that some of the muscle problems associated with statin therapy aren't detected by the typical enzyme screening method doctors use, and therefore are dismissed as signs of aging.

In his study, neither the doctors nor the patients involved knew whether a statin or a placebo was given, but the majority began feeling pain when they started back on the real drug. "They could tell every time within three weeks of being on the statin therapy," says Dr. Phillips, who presented the findings at an international cholesterol drug meeting in New York last September and is seeking NIH funding for further study. "These drugs unquestionably save lives, but these muscle toxicities are poorly studied."

Nobody recommends that patients with muscle pain or memory problems stop taking statins on their own. They should, however, discuss their concerns with their doctor. Some patients experience fewer side effects if the dose is lowered or the brand is changed.

Other doctors recommend taking the supplement coenzyme Q10 as a way to counteract memory problems. "You take these fragile elderly people, knock their cholesterol in half and deplete them of this essential nutrient and it makes sense they're going to have trouble," says Peter Langsjoen, a Tyler, Texas, cardiologist. "I think we're going to see some real trouble if we're not careful."

And also:

(adapted from A Textbook on EDTA Chelation Therapy, Second Edition, 2001 edited by Elmer M. Cranton, M.D., Hampton Roads Publishing Company, Charlottesville, Virginia. )

Copyright (c) 2001 Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.


Dr. Elmer Cranton has written:

It is not widely known that cholesterol-lowering drugs also have antioxidant and antiplatelet activity.() Those drugs also produce significant toxicity and cost much more than antioxidant nutritional supplements.
The government is starting to take seriously the allegations that these cholesterol lowering drugs cause serious health problems. The authors note that their study showed that long-term exposure to statins may substantially increase the risk of polyneuropathy. These findings suggest that statins may have a toxic effect on peripheral nerves. One possible mechanism may be that by interfering with cholesterol synthesis, statins may alter nerve membrane function.


And, from Beatrice A. Golomb, MD, PhD on Statin Drugs
March 7, 2002


The most common problems we hear reported pertain to muscle pain or weakness, fatigue, memory and cognitive problems, sleep problems, and neuropathy. Erectile dysfunction, problems with temperature regulation (feeling hot or cold, or having sweats), are among the other problems reported.

You may want to think long and hard about statins.

From Dr. Ravnscov's book:

Did you know. . .

. . . that cholesterol is not a deadly poison, but a substance vital to the cells of all mammals?

. . . that your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat?

. . . that this production increases when you eat only small amounts of cholesterol and decreases when you eat large amounts?

. . . that the "prudent" diet, low in saturated fat and cholesterol, cannot lower your cholesterol more than a small percentage?

. . . that the only effective way to lower cholesterol is with drugs?

. . . that many of the cholesterol-lowering drugs are dangerous to your health and may shorten your life?

. . . that the new cholesterol-lowering drugs, called statins, do lower heart-disease mortality, but this is because of effects other than cholesterol lowering? Unfortunately, they also stimulate cancer, at least in rodents.

. . . that you may become aggressive or suicidal if you lower your cholesterol too much?

. . . that polyunsaturated fatty acids, those which are claimed to prevent heart attacks, stimulate infections and cancer in rats?

. . . that if you eat too much polyunsaturated oil you will age faster than normal? You will see this on the outside as wrinkled skin. You can’t see the effects of premature aging on the inside of your body, but you will certainly feel them.

. . . that too much polyunsaturated oil may provoke atherosclerosis?

. . . that people whose blood cholesterol is low develop just as many plaques in their blood vessels as people whose cholesterol is high?

. . . that more than thirty studies of more than 150,000 individuals have shown that people who have had a heart attack haven’t eaten more saturated fat or less polyunsaturated oil than other people?

. . . that old women with high cholesterol live longer than old women with low cholesterol?

. . . that many of these facts have been presented in scientific journals and books for decades but proponents of the diet heart hypothesis never tell them to the public?

. . . that the diet-heart idea and the cholesterol campaign create immense prosperity for researchers, doctors, drug producers and the food industry?

Anyway, I'll get off this thread and off this topic...not much point in it anyway. Its sort of like answering all of the scientific data questions pertaining to certain steroid's toxicicty...I post comprehensive info with references only to have some respected board member cough up the same old Anabolic Review misinformation.

No problem, though. Its a discussion forum, and a good one. Anyway, I thought someone might like to look into the things that I look into from time to time. ---
 
Fukkenshredded said:
Since your not educated you will have to just go with what you've learned about the TRUE ramifications of these levels?

How exactly did you learn this truth?

I cannot tell you how inspired I am to see that my efforts impact others on this board...lol.

That's okay, following the herd is probably safer in the end. What good is actual knowledge in the face of habit? Not much.


I went by what the MD said who intrepreted my blood test results. Are you an MD?? I highly doubt it.
 
ok, so how do we keep our hearts healthy? obviously cardio and weight training right. Anything else?

what about the "heart" supps like niacin, red yeast, guggul's fish oil, etc etc do they help?

And what about low to no HDL.........do the numbers mean anything?
 
What is the impact of low HDL?
I know high LDL is associated with heart disease, but what about low LDL?

I had mine checked and they found both LDL & HDL low while "on"

Let's learn more about the myths & facts..Keep it bumping
 
I remember reading into the cholesterol thing a while back when I came back with a 235.

If you smoke, your body is drained of vitamin C. Vitamin C is directly responsible for the pliability of the cardiovascular system. Without it, your veins, arteries, and capillaries become brittle. They crack and they are repaired via clotting. The cholesterol then sticks to this clotted/damaged crack and accumulates.

If you do not smoke and eat fairly well you should have no issues tolerating higher cholesterol levels.
 
The only point that I am making is that there is some current thinking along the lines that HDL/LDL ratios and levels are not CAUSES of heart disease, and that they are not so much DIETARY (other than eating too much and becoming obese) issues as they are GENETIC and DIABETIC issues.


People with heart disease certainly have the high numbers and bad levels, but so do the same number of people WITHOUT heart disease. The point here is that all of the research, over 30 studies, has not yet demonstrated a cause and effect for cholesterol and heart disease.

What the studies HAVE shown is a cause and effect with OBESITY and heart disease, with SMOKING and heart disease, and with GENETIC PREDISPOSTION and heart disease.

Now, the fact that obese people tend to have bad cholesterol readings, smokers tend to have bad cholesterol readings has for some reason caused scientists to present the cholesterol readings as a cause more so than the lifestyle issues.

What is NOT ever pointed out is that the same percentage of people with these high levels of cholesterol are PERFECTLY HEALTHY, and that the SAME percentage of people with excellent cholesterol profiles GET HEART DISEASE.

This is significant when you consider that the number one prescribed medications are the statins. It is also no mystery that obesity is somewhat pushed as a cause (which is certainly true) because DIET DRUGS are right up there with statins.

Furthermore, there is NO eveidence showing that a decrease of animal fats in the diet, when replaced with monounsaturated fats, will impact the cholesterol levels in any statistically significant way, and amazingly some studies show that an INCREASE in dietary consumption causes a decrease in cholesterol production. All of the studies can be found on the net, and are referenced by Dr. Ravnskov as well as others.

So what does lower cholesterol, as well as lower the risk of heart disease?

EXERCISE
PROPER BODYWEIGHT AND BODYFAT CONTENT

And while your cholesterol may well be in the 200s (mine is over 300, genetics), in the absence of smoking, obesity, or diabetes there is no data supporting that you are in any danger whatsoever of getting heart disease as a result of your cholesterol levels, period.

Juice Authority--

--As far as me being an M.D...nope. You're right about that one.

BTW, go ask any M.D. about the risks associated with steroid use and get back with me on that one as well.

I wasn't trying to belittle you and upon rereading my post I can see that I came off a little that way, so I apologize. Its just that your response struck me as funny, seeing as you ARE on an anabolic board and have most likely seen, and perhaps even agreed, that M.D.s are NOT the most reliable source for some kinds of medical information.

My father is a doctor, and believe me when I tell you he not only is not up to speed in many areas, he also is bound by larger powers that be in terms of what he can and cannot do or say, regardless of what he may actually suspect to be true.

He has commented many times that the medical profession is all but ruined and he wishes he could retire right now.

I'm not quite that jaded, and I certainly value my doctor visits. But it was my doctor that told me that taking GHB would kill me by destroying my liver and kidneys, and that it was GHB and stanozolol that caused hepatitis, rather than MDMA and meth, which he said were 'probably nonfactors in light of your steroid abuse'.

When I continued GHB use (quit everything else) and added a few antioxidants, my liver cleared right up pronto. Subsequent G usage for MONTHS ON END NONSTOP never resulted in ANY elevated readings of ANY kind.

I told another doctor once about that and he postulated that I wasn't taking GHB but probably something that I THOUGHT was GHB.

My point here is that I only thought your response was funny, and INTENTIONALLY funny at that. Sorry about the tone of my subsequent response, and I hereby withdraw my smart ass remarks.
 
Juice Authority--

--As far as me being an M.D...nope. You're right about that one.

BTW, go ask any M.D. about the risks associated with steroid use and get back with me on that one as well.

I wasn't trying to belittle you and upon rereading my post I can see that I came off a little that way, so I apologize. Its just that your response struck me as funny, seeing as you ARE on an anabolic board and have most likely seen, and perhaps even agreed, that M.D.s are NOT the most reliable source for some kinds of medical information.

[/B]


Agreed and no problem. I do however feel that MD's are a reliable source of information when it comes to the inherent health risks of having low/high cholesterol levels.
 
Your efforts have effected me.....and are appreciated too. I have lowered my cholesterol considerably by eating mostly red meat with very little carbs. This in itself shows there is much to learn about cholesterol.
 
FS
If you were a Dr. Knowing what you have studied, what would
you prescribe your patients that were not willing or able to
diet and exercise with out of controll lipid profiles?
 
Regardless of your cholesterol levels,risk factors are more important.Dont smoke,dont drink,dont do drugs=low risk factors.It is better to have a high cholesterol count and no risk factors,than a "normal cholesterol count and high risk factors
 
Laser0001--

Mega doses of vitamin C
r-ALA
Three liters of water daily
Possibly some diabetes medication, depending on the case in question.

A statin might be justifed in the event of something like hyper-lipid syndrome (a condition sometimes corresponding with renal failure), but if the numbers are in the 200-400 range this would be unecessary. Statins are toxic in several ways.

I would suggest not replacing animal fats with substitutes. Example, eat butter instead of margarine.

Of course, the absence of diet and exercise is going to create problems, regardless.
 
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Juice Authority said:
I do however feel that MD's are a reliable source of information when it comes to the inherent health risks of having low/high cholesterol levels.
an MD is usually parroting what the pharm company sales rep tells him so that he can qualify for some extra income. i have no doubt that some MDs know their stuff but i doubt that they actually tell you the truth.
 
http://www.cdc.gov/cvh/fs-cholesterol.htm

Facts on Cholesterol

Cholesterol is a waxy, fat-like substance found in your body and is needed for the body to function normally. Your body makes enough cholesterol for its needs. When there is too much cholesterol in your body—because of diet and the rate at which the cholesterol is processed—it is deposited in arteries, including those of the heart, which can lead to narrowing of the arteries and heart disease.

An estimated 102.3 million American adults have total blood cholesterol levels of 200 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL) and higher, which is above desirable levels. Of these, 41.3 million have levels of 240 mg/dL or higher, which is considered high risk. (Statistics from CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics as published by the American Heart Association, Heart and Stroke Statistical Update, 2002. Dallas, TX: AHA, 2001. http://www.americanheart.org*).

Studies among people with heart disease have shown that lowering cholesterol can reduce the risk for dying from heart disease, having a nonfatal heart attack, and needing heart bypass surgery or angioplasty.

Studies among people without heart disease have shown that lowering cholesterol can reduce the risk for developing heart disease, including heart attacks and deaths related to heart disease. This is true for those with high cholesterol levels and even for those with average levels.

A lipoprotein profile can be done to measure several different kinds of cholesterol as well as triglycerides (another kind of fat found in the blood). Desirable or optimal levels for persons with or without existing heart disease are
Total cholesterol: Less than 200 mg/dL.

Low Density Lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol ("bad" cholesterol): Less than 100 mg/dL.

High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol ("good" cholesterol): 40 mg/dL or higher.

Triglycerides: Less than 150 mg/dL.


The National Cholesterol Education Program recommends that adults have their cholesterol levels checked at least every 5 years.



CDC's Public Health Efforts

CDC currently funds health departments in 29 states and the District of Columbia to develop effective strategies to reduce the burden of cardiovascular diseases and related risk factors with an overarching emphasis on heart healthy policies and physical and social environmental changes. Through these state programs, CDC aims to reduce disparities in treatment, risk factors, and disease; delay the onset of disease; postpone death from cardiovascular disease; and reduce disabling conditions. For more information on CDC's Cardiovascular Health State Program, please visit our Web site at http://www.cdc.gov/cvh/stateprogram.htm


For More Information

For more information about cholesterol, visit the Web sites:

American Heart Association
http://www.americanheart.org/*

National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov

Third Report of the Expert Panel on Detection, Evaluation, and Treatment of High Blood Cholesterol in Adults (Adult Treatment Panel III)
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/index.htm


Download Fact Sheet
This document is available in Portable Document Format (PDF).
Learn more about PDFs.

Cholesterol Fact Sheet (PDF - 127 K)
 
Uh...you need to look at the actual studies, bro. NOT the organizations attempting to interpret them.

Statistics of cholesterol levels do not amount to a scientific study. What, specifically, is the reason that the AHO believes that above 240 is 'high risk'?

Find the data in the study that supports this. Find it in any study.

Right off your information source is inaccurate and incomplete. Cholesterol is a fat, waxy substance? Cholesterol is depositied in arteries? In my initial thread starter I outlined SPECIFICALLY what the cholesterol molecule is.
The term 'substance' as a precise definitive element is indicative of incompleteness. Its an alcohol. That matters.

I do not want tos ound rude here, but you should do a little more research. Dig a bit deeper. Look for something NOT published by a government organization or a drug company.

In other words, look for actual scientific data.

With the actual data we can discuss meanings and implications, but with only the pharmaceutical industry's opinion we can do nothing but speculate.

You can start with the Framingham Studies. I will post some examples for you with other ACTUAL DATA...give me a few minutes...
 
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The Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT)

Over a period of several years, 12,866 men at increased risk of death from CHD were recruited across the USA (Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial Research Group, 1982). They had no clinical evidence of CHD but were designated as being at increased risk because their levels of 3 risk factors - cigarette smoking, serum cholesterol and diastolic blood pressure - were sufficiently high to place them in the upper 10% of a risk score distribution based on data from the Framingham study. Half were assigned to a special intervention group (SI) and were treated conventionally with drugs for their hypertension, encouraged to stop smoking and consume less cholesterol and saturated fats. The other men were a "usual care" (UC) group and received no special treatment other than that provided by their personal physicians.

The men were examined annually and followed for an average of 7 years each. The three risk factors declined in both groups but the reductions were larger throughout the trial in the SI group, being significant at P<0.01 at each annual visit. For example, after 6 years, 50% of SI men who were smokers had quit compared with 29% of the UC. Diastolic blood pressure fell in the two groups by 10.5 and 7.3 respectively. Plasma cholesterol fell in the two groups by 12.1 and 7.5 mg/dl respectively, which primarily represented changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and not high-density lipoprotein cholesterol. The unexpected decline in cholesterol in the UC group and a smaller than predicted decline in the SI group meant that the SI-UC difference was about half of that expected. At the end of the follow-up period, the mortality rates were SI 41.2 and UC 40.4/1000. The CHD death rates were 17.9 and 19.3/1000. Neither death rates from CHD nor any other cause were reported as significantly different in the two groups.

The investigators were reluctant to accept their own results and examined sub-groups within their study. They found that SI men with hypertension as an important risk factor and with resting ECG abnormalities had a substantially raised mortality. This, they consider, would have been due to an unexpected deleterious effect of the SI program, particularly toxic effects of the diuretics used. They reported this at a news conference which presented their findings (Kolata, 1982).

After removal of the men with resting ECG abnormalities from their results, total mortality rates for SI and UC men were 37.2 and 39.5/1000 and for CHD 14.8 and 18.8/1000. Again, none of these differences were significant.

The original goal of the MRFIT was to determine whether reduction of the risk factors smoking, cholesterol and elevated blood pressure in high-risk but otherwise healthy men would reduce CHD mortality, non-fatal MI or CHD, cardiovascular mortality and mortality from all causes (Zukel, Paul and Schnaper, 1981). Their paper answers these questions thus:

"In conclusion we have shown that it is possible to apply an intensive long-term intervention program against three coronary risk factors with considerable success in terms of risk factor changes. The overall results do not show a beneficial effect on CHD or total mortality from this multifactor intervention. (Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial Research Group, 1982)

In other words, they found that changing the "risk factors" does not apparently change the risks. This necessarily means that the "risk factors" are not as important as was thought. Indeed, it should be concluded that the "risk factors" were no such thing, at least as far as this trial is concerned.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source

Roger W. Sherwin, Ph.D. - Dr. Sherwin is the J. S. Copes Professor and Chair of the Department of Epidemiology, TSPHTM. He received his B.A., M.A., M.B., and B.Chir. from Cambridge University, England. He was recruited to Tulane in 1999. While at Johns Hopkins University he served as clinic physician for the Baltimore Center of the Diet-Heart Feasibility Study and designed the first randomized trial of maternal nutritional supplementation during pregnancy. At the University of Maryland School of Medicine he was Principal Investigator

And from Dr. Ravnskov's book--

What is good and what is bad?

People who reduce their body weight also reduce their cholesterol.

In a review of 70 studies Dr. Anne Dattilo and Dr. P.M. Kris-Etherton concluded that, on average, weight reduction lowers cholesterol by about 10 per cent, depending on the degree of the reduction. Interestingly, it is only cholesterol transported by LDL that goes down; the small part transported by HDL goes up. In other words, weight reduction increases the ratio between HDL- and LDL-cholesterol (1).

An increase of the HDL/LDL ratio is called ”favorable” by the diet-heart supporters; cholesterol is changed from ”bad” to ”good”. But is it the ratio or the weight reduction that is favorable?

When we become fat, other harmful things occur to us. One is that our cells become less sensitive to insulin, so that some of us develop diabetes. And people with diabetes are much more likely to have a heart attack than people without diabetes, because atherosclerosis and other vascular damage occur very early in diabetics, even in those without lipid abnormalities. In other words, overweight may increase the risk of a heart attack by mechanisms other than an unfavorable lipid pattern, while at the same time overweight lowers the HDL/LDL ratio.

Also smoking increases cholesterol a little.

Again, it is LDL-cholesterol that increases, while HDL-cholesterol goes down, resulting in an ”unfavorable” HDL/LDL ratio (2).

What is certainly unfavorable is the chronic exposure to the fumes from burning paper and tobacco leaves.

Instead of considering the low HDL/LDL ratio as bad it could simply be smoking itself that is bad. Smoking may provoke a heart attack and, at the same time, lower the HDL/LDL ratio.

Exercise decreases the bad LDL-cholesterol and increases the ”good” HDL-cholesterol (3).

In well-trained individuals the ”good” HDL is increased considerably. In a comparison between distance runners and sedentary individuals, Dr. Paul D. Thompson and his colleagues found that the athletes on average had a 41 per cent higher HDL-cholesterol level (4).

Most population studies have shown that physical exercise is associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease, and a sedentary life with a higher risk. It also seems plausible that a well-trained heart is better guarded against obstruction of the coronary vessels than a heart always working at low speed.

A sedentary life may predispose people to a heart attack and, at the same time, lower the HDL/LDL ratio.

A low ratio is also associated with high blood pressure (5). Most probably, the hypertensive effect is created by the sympathetic nerve system, which is often overstimulated in hypertensive patients. Hypertension (or too much adrenalin) may provoke a heart attack, for instance by inducing spasm of the coronary arteries or by stimulating the arterial muscle cells to proliferate, and, at the same time, lower the HDL/LDL ratio.


Univariate and multivariate?
As you see, it is not easy to know what is bad. Is it bad to be fat, to smoke, to be inactive, to have high blood pressure, or to be stressed? Or is it bad to have a lot of bad cholesterol? Or both?

Is it good to be slim, to stop smoking, to exercise, to have normal blood pressure, to be emotionally calm? Or is it good to have much ”good” cholesterol? Or both?

Thus, the risk of having a heart attack is greater than normal for people with high LDL-cholesterol, but so is the risk for fat, sedentary, smoking, hypertensive and mentally stressed individuals. And since such individuals usually have elevated levels of LDL-cholesterol, it is, of course impossible to know whether the increased risk is due to the previously mentioned risk factors (or to risk factors we do not yet know) or to the high LDL-cholesterol. A calculation of the risk of high LDL-cholesterol that ignores other risk factors is called a univariate analysis and is, of course, meaningless.

To prove that high LDL-cholesterol is an independent risk factor, we should ask if fat, sedentary, smoking, hypertensive and mentally stressed individuals with a high LDL-cholesterol level are at greater risk for coronary disease than fat, sedentary, smoking, hypertensive and mentally stressed individuals with low or normal LDL cholesterol.

Using complicated statistical formulas, it is possible to do such comparisons in a population of individuals with varying degrees of the risk factors and varying levels of LDL-cholesterol, a so-called multivariate analysis. If a multivariate analysis of the prognostic value of LDL cholesterol also takes body weight into consideration, it is said to be ”adjusted for body weight”.

A major problem with such calculations is that we know a great number of risk factors because the more risk factors that are adjusted for, the less reliable the result will be. Another problem is that the data generated by these and other complicated statistical methods are almost impossible for most readers, including most physicians, to comprehend.

For many years researchers in this area have not presented primary data, simple means, or simple correlations. Instead, their papers have been salted with meaningless ratios, relative risks, p-values, not to mention obscure concepts such as the standardized logistic regression coefficient, or the pooled hazard rate ratio.

Instead of being an aid to science, statistics are used to impress the reader and cover the fact that the scientific findings are trivial and without practical importance. Nevertheless, let us have a look at some of the studies.



The ”good” one

Publications almost beyond counting have studied the prognostic value of the ”good” HDL-cholesterol.

The reason is, of course, that it is hard to find any prognostic value.


If HDL-cholesterol had a heart-protecting effect of real importance, it would not be necessary to use the tax payers' money to demonstrate the effect again and again in expensive studies. To be brief I shall tell you only about a few of the largest studies.

In 1986 the medical statistician, Dr. Stuart Pocock and his coworkers published a report concerning more than 7000 middle-aged men in 24 British towns (6). The men had been followed for about four years after a detailed analysis of their blood lipids. During this period 193 of the men had had a heart attack. As in most previous studies, these men had on average a lower HDL-cholesterol at the beginning than the men who did not have a heart attack. The mean difference between the cases and the other men was 2.7 mg/dl, or about 6 per cent. This difference was small of course, but thanks to the large number of individuals studied it was statistically significant.

But this was a univariate analysis and as mentioned, the difference could therefore be explained by many ways. A multivariate analysis adjusted for age, blood pressure, body weight, cigarette smoking and non-HDL-cholesterol reduced the difference to an insignificant 0.9 mg/dl, or 2 per cent. This means that those who had suffered a heart attack had a lower HDL-cholesterol mainly because they were older, fatter, had a higher blood pressure and smoked more than those who had not had a heart attack. Dr. Pocock and his colleagues concluded that a low HDL-cholesterol level is not a major risk factor for coronary heart disease.

Their results were challenged in 1989 by nine American scientists headed by Dr. David Gordon. They had analysed the predictive value of HDL-cholesterol in four large American studies, a total of more than 15,000 men and women (7). They thought that the British scientists had used an incorrect way to adjust their figures. If another formula is used, the American researchers wrote, HDL-cholesterol is a much better predictor.

But in one of the four studies, analyzed by Dr. Gordon and his colleagues, the number of fatal heart attacks was identical in the first and second HDL tertile (individuals were classified into three groups, or tertiles, according to their HDL-cholesterol). In one of the studies the number of fatal cases was identical in the second and the third tertile, and in one study more deaths were seen in the third tertile (those who had the largest amount of the ”good” cholesterol) than in the second tertile. And these figures were the unadjusted ones.

After adjustment for age, cigarette smoking, blood pressure, body weight and LDL-cholesterol the differences were even smaller. In three of the four studies, the differences lost statistical significance. And remember that the figures were not adjusted for physical activity or mental stress, not to mention the risk factors we do not know yet.

Dr. Pocock and his colleagues returned with a new analysis later the same year, now using the same way of analysing as had Dr. Gordon and his colleagues. At that time the participants in the study had been followed for 7.5 years and a total of 443 heart attacks had occurred. This is the largest single HDL study to date (8).

This time a difference was noted between the HDL cholesterol of the heart patients and the others. The difference was small but statistically significant, even after adjustment for the five risk factors mentioned. However, the largest difference was noted for total cholesterol. The authors therefore concluded that a determination of HDL-cholesterol may be of marginal additional value in screening and in intervention programs for risk of coronary heart disease. They could also have added that they did not adjust for all risk factors so that the difference could as well be due to the heart patients being, for instance, more stressed or less active physically than the others.



The ”bad” one

”LDL has the strongest and most consistent relationship to individual and population risk of CHD, and LDL-cholesterol is centrally and causally important in the pathogenetic chain leading to atherosclerosis and CHD”. These words you will find in the large review Diet and Health (9).

Reviews by distinguished scientific bodies are supposed to meet high standards. Therefore, you are probably wondering how the authors of Diet and Health, an official, most authoritative and supposedly reliable review from the National Research Council in Washington, had reached their conclusion about LDL-cholesterol. Four publications were mentioned.

In 1973 Dr. Jack Medalie and his coworkers published a five-year follow-up study of 10,000 Israeli male government and municipal employees (10). But the Israeli study did not support the words of Diet and Health, because total cholesterol, not LDL-cholesterol, had the strongest relationship to risk of coronary disease.

The second paper claimed by the Diet and Health-authors was a 1977 report from the Framingham Study by Dr. Tavia Gordon and her colleagues (11). This study concerned HDL cholesterol, however. Only logistic regression coefficients (a statistical concept unknown to most doctors) for coronary disease on LDL-cholesterol were given, and one of the conclusions of the paper was that ”LDL-cholesterol ...is a marginal risk factor for people of these age groups” (men and women above 50 years). Some of the coefficients were indeed low. For women above the age of 70 it was negative, which means that women at that age ran a greater risk of having a heart attack if their LDL-cholesterol was low than if it was high. Thus, there was no support either from Gordon's paper.

Also, the third paper (12) concerned HDL-cholesterol only. No support again.

The fourth reference was to the National Cholesterol Education Program, which produced another large review without original data (13). One of its conclusions was that ”a large body of epidemiologic evidence supports a direct relationship between the level of serum total and LDL-cholesterol and the rate of CHD.” The large body of evidence was to be found in three references. The first one was another large review without original data, Optimal resources for primary prevention of atherosclerotic disease (14), with Dr. Kannel as the first author. I shall return to their review below.

The next reference was yet a large review (15), but nothing in that review was said about the connection between the LDL-level and the incidence of coronary heart disease.

The last reference was an analysis of various lipoproteins as risk factors in the Honolulu Heart Study (16). The conclusion of that paper was that ”both measures of LDL-cholesterol were related to CHD prevalence, but neither appeared to be superior to total cholesterol”.

Before I discuss Kannel's review I shall mention another conclusion in the National Cholesterol Education Program: ”The issue of whether lowering LDL-cholesterol levels by dietary and drug interventions can reduce the incidence of CHD has been addressed in more than a dozen randomized clinical trials”. This is a most misleading statement because at that time, in 1988, only four randomized trials including LDL-cholesterol analysis had previously been published (17), and only in one of them the number of heart attacks was lowered significantly.

Let me now return to the review by Kannel and colleagues, the one used as evidence by the authors of The Cholesterol Education Program, which in turn was used as evidence by the authors of Diet and Health. Almost nothing was written about LDL-cholesterol in Kannel's review except for the following (page 164A): ”Longitudinal studies within populations show a consistent rise in the risk of CHD in relation to serum total cholesterol and LDL-cholesterol at least until late middle-age”.

A little more cautious conclusion than in Diet and Health, it may seem, but even for this prudent statement the evidence was weak. References to six studies were given. In two of them LDL-cholesterol was not analysed or mentioned at all (18); in two reports LDL-cholesterol was only correlated to the prevalence of heart disease (19); in one report two tables was aimed at the subject (tables 8 and 9) and showed that the predictive power of LDL-cholesterol was statistically nonsignificant (20); in one study LDL-cholesterol was predictive for heart disease, but only for men between 35 and 49 and for women between 40 and 44 (21).

In conclusion, the ”large body of evidence” was cooked down to one single study, which showed a predictive value for LDL-cholesterol but for a few age groups only. LDL-cholesterol is neither centrally nor causally important, it has not the strongest and most consistent relationship to risk of CHD, it has not a direct relationship to the rate of CHD, and it has not been studied in more than a dozen randomized trials.

But how then has the idea of the bad cholesterol emerged? As mentioned in the National Cholesterol Education Program, there are two main reasons. First, there was the discovery of a defective LDL-receptor in familial hypercholesterolemia and its consequence, the extremely high level of LDL-cholesterol in the blood of individuals with this disease. The discoverers, Nobel prize winners Michael Brown and Joseph Goldstein, suggested that the high LDL-cholesterol was the direct cause of the vascular changes seen in such individuals and also suggested that a similar mechanism was operating in the rest of us (22). Second, feeding experiments in animals raised the animals' LDL-cholesterol and produced vascular changes that have been called atherosclerosis by the experimentators.

These arguments are weak, however. If LDL-cholesterol were the devil himself LDL-cholesterol would clearly be a better predictor than total cholesterol, because the latter include also the ”good” HDL-cholesterol. And experiments on animals can only be suggestive and cannot prove anything about human diseases. Besides, the vascular findings in laboratory animals do not look like human atherosclerosis at all, and it is impossible to induce a heart attack in animals by diet alone (23). And finally, findings pertaining to people with a rare genetic error in cholesterol metabolism are not necessarily valid for the rest of us (24).

Thus, the experimentors claim support from unsupportive epidemiological and clinical studies, and the epidemiologists and the clinicians claim support from inconclusive experimental evidence. The victims of this miscarriage of justice are an innocent and useful molecular construction in our blood, producers and manufacturers of animal fat all over the world, and millions of healthy people who are frightened and badgered into eating a tedious and flavorless diet that is said to lower their bad cholesterol.


References are in his book.

You should read it for starters, lots of interesting info there. There are dozens of other examples I could post but no one would read that much material here!


© Uffe Ravnskov March 1997






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Maybe I don't fully understand what all of this means but It seems that you keep saying that high cholesterol or low cholesterol LDL isnt a good indicator of heart problems.....but what about low to no HDL (that is the "good" one right) doesn't HDL prtoect the heart from bad things? if it is very low will this not affect its ability to help the heart?

Once again I'm not the smartest guy around so bear with me if my post seems dum:)
 
Champion---your post is not dumb at all. In fact, you are right. Taken to the extremes, we can derive certain predictions. Zero HDL would be catastrophic, yes. As in death.

So in that regard there is some merit to the notion of ideal cholesterol levels/ratios. Its just that they are not proven as CAUSES of heart disease, or even reliable indicators.
 
what about low HDL while on?
It is suposed to clear up when you come off right? what if you never come off? what about HRT patients?

I stay on 400mg test all the time cycling with other things and upping that dose off and on...........about 6 months ago I got bloodwork and my HDL was 0.6......I posted about it on AF and was told not to worry about it.....that it doesnt mean much in regards to heart problems.......

Even so I began taking 1-1.5g niacin, 1g or so gugglesterones fish oils mono fats and now co q10 red yeast and I eat lots of garilc. I do cardio regulary and of course train.

I'm gonna get bloodwork in about a month to see if it has helped at all.........If not do I need to come off? 400 is my personal HRT...........

Oh, I 've been on for like 4 years, so I'm probably shut off for good but I'm planning on coming off after the summer for a few months with some heavy anicillery help to see If I can still function.........I do want to continue being on most of the time coming off here and there if I can but am very curious about the whole "lipid profile" thing.........
 
Champion--

All I am doing with this post is bringing to light the fact that there is little evidence supporting lots of generally accepted ideas about cholesterol.

I am not qualified to answer your questions...my suspicion is that there is a point where levels DO matter for some reason, even if it isn't an imminent heart attack.

I would suggest that you read Dr. Uffe's book for starters, and then ask your own doctor about what is being presented therein. Dr. Uffe also gives numerous references, very detailed analyses of various studies, and points the direction for educating one's self in this area.

As of now, I am NOT thoroughly educated here (I am in the process), and so I do not want to present myself as though I am...I only want to open the minds of the persons on this board who are so inclined to pursue their personal education about their bodies.

Sorry I cannot be of more help here...
 
No worries bro, I was just looking for your opinion, not basing my actions on how I deal with myself on it but looking for imput :) Also not trying to put ya on the spot.
Thanks, good post though as most people don't know about this shit
Whats this book called?
 
A few quick points:

Cholesterol is not the killer that it's been made out to be in regard to heart health, but like anything else, extreme levels aren't preferable.

Obese people tend to have high cholesterol levels and are suseptable to heart disease, which contributes to the erroneous conclusions on cholesterol's affect on heart health.

In one study (nope, ain't gonna track it down and post it) it was shown that the majority of people who die from heart disease have acceptabe cholesterol levels.
Too low a level of cholesterol is bad since it's necessary to make testosterone.

I've found that a regiment of Primrose oil and apple pectin will lower cholesterol every time. (nope, ain't gonna provide documentation. Take my word for it, or don't).

Cholesterol is genetically determined. The body will produce what it wants, even if dietary intake is low. It seems dietary intake is much less of a factor as once thought. Someone wilth a low disposition to cholesterol can eat a lot of it and the liver will process it.

And finally, cholesterol levels flucuate -- WIDELY. That means wht reading you get on one test can look completely different the next day, and it isn't necessarily related to dietary intake. An interesting example of this occured during my last 2 blood tests. Prior to my last test I did the standard fast and my cholesterol came back at 212 -- a touch high. The last blood test I said, fuck it, and ate a breakfast of bacon and eggs. If my cholesterol was elevated I'd just attribute it to the high level in my bloodstream at the time. It came back 186.

Just goes to show you. Nobody knows shit.
 
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