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what should i use to build a good back?...
Chins - Close Or Wide-grip/under Or Overhand?
- Thread starter nevertoobig
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Cackerot69
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Slightly wider than shoulder width to train the lats most effectively.
Welsh power house
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slightly wider grip than shoulder width, overhand grip, (using straps takes some of the stress off the biceps)
deadlifts and barbell rows are my two favourite back builders in terms of thickness, chins are great for adding width to the lats.
deadlifts and barbell rows are my two favourite back builders in terms of thickness, chins are great for adding width to the lats.
buffal2001
New member
Personally, id go for wide-overhand grip.....works the lats brilliantly. A closer underhand grip works more of the biceps and only a smaller radius of the back........so it really depends on what you want from chins!
Imnotdutch
butler monkey
As Mann said.....deadlifts and rows build a good back. I also like to do either pullovers or a chin variation at the end.
Theres more to a good back than wide lats.....
Theres more to a good back than wide lats.....
nevertoobig said:what should i use to build a good back?...
MonStar1023
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tripleV said:
AGREED.
Phemomena
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not to sound stupid, but isn't doing wide grip 'underhand' extremely painful on the wrists... i can do chinups and i can do pullups... when i move between the two my grip just naturally changes.. no one ever had to teach me this, i was just something i naturally did...
i have to try it, but i've always thought when people are referring to wide grip chins that they're doing pullups...
i have to try it, but i've always thought when people are referring to wide grip chins that they're doing pullups...
Cackerot69
New member
Yes, wide grip overhand pull-ups are more liekly to cause tendonites, bursitis, etc. They also put the biceps in their weakest position (pronated) thus they will fail long before they would in an undergrip position so you cannot train your lats as well (biceps are the weak link). also, wide grip overhand limits range of motion.
This is why slightly wider than shoulder width undergrip chins are superior.
This is why slightly wider than shoulder width undergrip chins are superior.
I agree with those that think variations are key. Of course the easiest variation would be narrow underhand grip because you can draw strength from the bis and even your chest. If you turn your hands over you'll lose the help from the bis and as you widen the grip the back takes on more of the load. This is my personal experience, others may not share these opinions.
Cackerot69
New member
Variation isn't the key to building muscle....
Cackerot69
New member
Ok.
Grip variation on an exercise is not the key to building muscle...
Grip variation on an exercise is not the key to building muscle...
Ok, cackrocket, now explain how "widegrip pulldowns limit range of motion" since scapula retraction is what primarly contracts the lats during the concentric phase of the pulldown, NOT the pulling down, and if the biceps are in the pronated or weaker position as you said then it shouldnt matter because he is working lats and wants to limit bicep invovment, again THINK before you disagree on something.
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Cackerot69
New member
The lats are involved in pulling the arms down.
You need to think. Putting the biceps in a weaker position won't make the lats work harder, it will simply mean the biceps will fail earlier...so your lats will get less work.
You need to think. Putting the biceps in a weaker position won't make the lats work harder, it will simply mean the biceps will fail earlier...so your lats will get less work.
I was disagreeing with you about the biceps being in a weaker position when pronated. If you use your biceps less (overgrip/pronated) and your biceps more (undergrip/supinated) then the additional tension is being placed on the lats and romboids.
and we both know that chins (under)work the biceps more than pullups (over)
and we both know that chins (under)work the biceps more than pullups (over)
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Cackerot69
New member
No matter what grip you use the biceps are involved in the chin. No matter what grip you use the biceps will be the weak link in the chin. So, by putting the biceps in their strongest position you minimize how much of a weak link they are, allowing you to work your lats harder.
For me, medium overhand grip chins to front work out very well for me.
My lats grow relatively easy so I can quickly spot a difference in grip and result after 2-3 workouts.
I do close grip weighted pullups for biceps instead of heavy barbell curls (I cannot get my form right on barbell curls)
My lats grow relatively easy so I can quickly spot a difference in grip and result after 2-3 workouts.
I do close grip weighted pullups for biceps instead of heavy barbell curls (I cannot get my form right on barbell curls)
cackerot, you are wrong about this, what happens is the slight change in grip, pronation vs supenation transfers the tension to the targer muscle, the lats. it is not a question of them being the weakest link which they are not in all cases, like weak forearms but of correct load transfer. try being open minded instead of right and you may learn something.
Cackerot69
New member
I didn't say wide grip supinated, slightly wider than shoulder width...Tuna Guy.
OK, since the anatomical viewpoint isn't getting through think of it this way....
You want to push a car.
You (lats) are strong but you can't do it yourself so you get a weak friend to help (biceps).
Now, you can push the car but eventually your wek friend will tire out but you'll still have some energy left in you, but regardless you're not strong enough to push the car. You didn't work very hard.
So, if you were to get a stronger friend than you had before you could push the car further before the friend tired out. So, you worked harder because your friend allowed you to.
Did that make sense?
I feel so corny using analogies..lol
OK, since the anatomical viewpoint isn't getting through think of it this way....
You want to push a car.
You (lats) are strong but you can't do it yourself so you get a weak friend to help (biceps).
Now, you can push the car but eventually your wek friend will tire out but you'll still have some energy left in you, but regardless you're not strong enough to push the car. You didn't work very hard.
So, if you were to get a stronger friend than you had before you could push the car further before the friend tired out. So, you worked harder because your friend allowed you to.
Did that make sense?
I feel so corny using analogies..lol
nacius said:
Cackerot69 is 100% correct in the fact that the biceps are a weak link and in fact are the weakest link in the overhand position as opposed to the underhand. With the overhand I have personally discovered that lat pulldown poundages come to a plateau very quickly with this grip because of the weak link. However, I feel the underhand grip works the biceps too much.
Its interesting noone has mentioned the verticle grip method using the bar (I'm not sure what they call it) that is designed for this movement. With the palms faced inward toward each other, you don't sacrifice the weakest bicep link as you would in the overhand position and you don't involve the biceps too greatly (Remember, its not a bicep excercise) as you would in the underhand grip. You settle for the middle ground and poundage plateaus don't come as quickly. Also, I go in front of the neck with this but I arch my back as much as I can squeazing my shoulder blades together as if I'm trying to touch them so I can almost get what a behind the neck movement will give me. Try it, its great!
But no matter what, the biceps will fail first requiring some sort pre-exhaust routine every now and then. Just my .02.
MarkFlC5, you are right , nobody mentioned the vertical grip, its a good exercise indeed, need to incorporate that in my routine next time!
as for the biceps failure issue:
pre-exhaust with 3 sets of medium overhand grip chins
follow up with 3 sets of close vertical grip chins
I think this should hit the nail on its head
as for the biceps failure issue:
pre-exhaust with 3 sets of medium overhand grip chins
follow up with 3 sets of close vertical grip chins
I think this should hit the nail on its head
Cackerot69
New member
Wow, some people....
I give up.
I give up.
lmao.
Cack is 99% correct.
The strongest grip for most individuals is palms facing each other, followed by palms facing yourself, and finally palms facing forward.
(If anybody can do them with palms facing outwards, please let me know. That would look quite interesting.)
Anyway, yes, you technically would like to maximize the strength of the weak link; think about it as using straps for your deadlift if you're shooting for back/legs overload. Many people fail because of their grip; there's little doubt that grip is a weak link for many.
Why not put your arms in the strongest position possible? The various grips actually make little difference in overall lat growth if you're talking about vanilla chin/pull-ups. (as opposed to Poliquin's whacky subscapularis-, sternum-, mixed-grip- etc. chin-ups, which DO actually involve different muscles.)
Cack is 99% correct.
The strongest grip for most individuals is palms facing each other, followed by palms facing yourself, and finally palms facing forward.
(If anybody can do them with palms facing outwards, please let me know. That would look quite interesting.)
Anyway, yes, you technically would like to maximize the strength of the weak link; think about it as using straps for your deadlift if you're shooting for back/legs overload. Many people fail because of their grip; there's little doubt that grip is a weak link for many.
Why not put your arms in the strongest position possible? The various grips actually make little difference in overall lat growth if you're talking about vanilla chin/pull-ups. (as opposed to Poliquin's whacky subscapularis-, sternum-, mixed-grip- etc. chin-ups, which DO actually involve different muscles.)
Who needs teeth anyway, and fish and chips are a world renowned delicacy. As for wars cmon a country of your size and military force should be able to destroy anyone, instead a tiny, little country not even on mainland europe had the biggest empire the world has ever known.
