Cardio -

[JKurz1]

Wondering what you meatheads do for cardio when you are bulking cleanly.....and lean mass is your goal....I use early am cardio for cutting up and want to substitute training for a few cardio sessions on my off days....

Was thinking about a good sweat on the stationary bike.....anyone use it?

 

[BiggT]

When trying to gain muscle size and gain strength, cardio that is long in duration and slow is not going to help you get where you want to be. Even when cutting, it is counter-productive, since it isn't very friendly towards lean muscle.

So many people associate being 'in-shape' with running long distances at a fairly slow pace. Unless you're an endurance athlete training your body to perform whatever activity it is youre doing for such and such a period of time, there is no reason to pound away on say a treadmill at 5 miles an hour for an hour. It's not good for muscle and it will DESTROY your gym lifts.

Charles Poloquin talks a lot about long and slow cardio being counter-productive to both bodybuilders and non-endurance athletes a lot.

If you're bulking and you're a bodybuilder, not an athlete who needs explosive speed, you probably can just bag the cardio when trying to bulk and simply scale back your calories if you start not liking what you're seeing around your waist-line. For athletes, and bodybuilders getting ready for a contest, explosive cardio, done close to max effort for short periods is excellent. Sprinting, sled dragging, high intensity interval work, sprint a min then recover then sprint a minute and repeat for 10 sprints, sometimes I like to run a 10 yard dash, rest, run a 20 yard dash, rest, all the way up to a 100 yard dash..... stuff like that. If you don't like the super high impact stuff, you can jog a min/walk a min.


For your question, biking can be enjoyable and is a great activity, both mountain biking and road biking, but to pedal away in a stationary environment for 45 minutes + is pointless unless you're a cyclist or triathlete who needs to condition yourself to pedal away for whatever period of time.

Those are just my thoughts, a lot of people like to train at their target heart rate for so long. I find that the shorter, explosive stuff burns more calories and doesn't ruin your lifting and eat up muscle.

 

[JKurz1]

Good post, but I disagree. 30 minutes of incline walking or recumburant bike work with a HR around 60-70% is benefitial to the most important muscle in the body.....

+ some studies say it's great for bulking/protein synthesis, great stress reliever, reduces water retention.....increases appetite......give it a shot

 

[BiggT]

Good post, but I disagree. 30 minutes of incline walking or recumburant bike work with a HR around 60-70% is benefitial to the most important muscle in the body.....

+ some studies say it's great for bulking/protein synthesis, great stress reliever, reduces water retention.....increases appetite......give it a shot

It certainly is beneficial for the heart, relieves stress, helps with water retention, nobody will disagree with you, It is also good AR along with some stretching I have found. But, were you talking about what is best for a BB/athlete to acheive their goals or what is good for the average person to improve cardiovascular fitness and general health? It won't make somebody a better, more explosive athlete, and as far as the fat burning powers of this type of cardio, I'd rather spend the 30 min doing something that is going to help me acheive my goals more efficiently if I were a BB. But, in terms of general health benefits, that type of cardio is great.

 

[blut wump]

This relates to the other thread on specificity. Define your goals and work towards them.

Some cardio to keep the blood moving and stretch some muscles is good. Depleting recovery potential needed for muscle growth during a tough program is not good. You have to find your own balance dependent on all the factors which make you what you are at any point in time.

 

[Madcow2]

Even for endurance purposes always training at constant pace is not a good thing. What you wind up with is a slow albeit consistent finisher and most people who take their performance seriously aren't looking to just finish.

 

[Protobuilder]

Timely thread. I've been struggling balancing my SF 5x5 goals w/ my cardio/general fitness goals (trying to get down from roughly 17% BF and get healthier, functional, more athletic in general). There's never a good day for intense circuits of plyometric pushups and pullups or hill sprints, etc. when you're facing a new PR on military or squat. LoL I don't want to put my interval training completely on hold but I also don't want to completely sabotage my 5x5 goals.

Question -- if you've got someone in my shoes (let's assume they HAD to do the harder GPP/interval training), would it be OK to just keep pushing for SF 5x5 PRs but don't necessarily expect to get them as often? I mean, that's obvious, but what I'm saying is, usually if you don't hit your goal, you try one or two times more before you start adjusting variables or back off 3-4 weeks and reramp up for a new PR, etc. Well, if the reason you didn't get your PR is b/c you smoked your shoulders w/ pushups or something, would you just allow more time for setting PRs or is this going to really hurt the overall 5x5 program?

 

[Madcow2]

The 5x5 is the resistance training program. You should not be smoking your shoulders with push ups. This is like doing high rep bench presses and then trying to hit a 5RM the next day. Bad idea. You want to do a few pushups fine, don't overly tax yourself though as you already have a resistance program in place. For harder intervals and GPP work you just have to use your brain and try to schedule them as well as possible. Accept the consequences of trying to do 2 things at 100% at the same time and not being a novice (you get sub 100% results on both to a degree which depends on the individual, his current level of conditioning in each category and exactly what he/she is doing). It's generally not a problem to fit this stuff into a program, use the schedule and feel out exactly what you need. If your weights are light you can probably handle some extra work on the other side, if they are near maximum efforts with very little room, scale back on the extra work and get a bit more out of it (that's one way to handle this stuff more actively on a day to day and week to week basis). Basically comes down to thinking about your goals, designing your program, understanding how best to go about it, and being realistic.

 

[blut wump]

I tested push-ups a few months back on a bathroom scale. There was more weight on the scale at the bottom than at the top, as you'd expect, but you can think of pushups as being equivalent to benching at approx. 70% bodyweight.

 

[anotherbutters]

Does cardio really hit the CNS that much? I was toying with following a periodized program on my rowing machine, working in different heart rate zones, durations and number of 'sets' on different days, progressively getting harder over time. I was going to do that on the off days when I restart my SF 5x5 and bulking in January. All of the work would be in the sub-10 mins range, but pretty intense. I wanted to add general fitness to my goals of size and strength and the periodized program seems better than doing the same cardio workout each time (although I see parallels with the appropriateness of SF vs DF to lifting here ).

 

[Protobuilder]

LoL I'm not a pushup machine or anything, but I do some circuit/interval training where I'll wind up doing several circuits of regular or plyometric pushups/pullups, etc. and the reps by the time I'm done are around 80. So I won't get sore (not enough weight) but I'll feel fatigued Same goes for hill sprints, circuits of bodyweight squats, etc.

I think biggt said it best in another thread: "don't try and squeeze 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag." LoL

 

[BiggT]

I just want to add, that as much as we try, nobody is Superman. Specialization is hard to grasp a lot of times. Sometimes kids will see Rocky 4 and forget it's a movie and say "I wanna be Ivan Drago and clean and press 315 for reps and run a mile in 4 minutes", but in real life, that's not possible. Either shoot for the big c and p or shoot for the fast mile, both cannot happen at the same time. Some people are more gifted than others obviously, but specialization is key. In my opinion, shot putters are amazing athletes in terms of static strength, speed-strength, leaping ability, and sprinting, but even they are not in prime condition to run a marathon.....you need to decide what you want and train for it, we're all limited by being human.

For guys new to lifting, get strong, eat plenty of clean calories, and build a great base. If you're not bulking on sugar and processed junk from a box, you're really not going to be sloppy fat. The six pack may disappear for a while, but don't lose sight of your original goals, carrying 15% bodyfat does not mean you're anywhere near fat. Again, remember reality, this isn't a comic book, being absolutely shredded does not put you at your optimal strength and performance levels.

When I am trying to peak my strength, I don't worry about bodyfat, you need the extra bf levels anyway. WHEN I do worry about bodyfat is during a volume phase, where my training frequency is very high. I have periods where I will do one or both olympic lifts every day at very submaximal weights for MANY sets, maybe during these periods I'll squat 5 days a week, I'll back squat twice a week and front squat 3 times a week, NOWHERE near taxing weights, but I manipulate volume and workload to tax my body. Due to the "light" weights, this is the time I take off bodyfat and worry about that stuff, I'll sprint, do interval work, a lot of plyo, box jumps, etc......then when I do less in terms of frequency and more in terms of % of max weights and try to set lifting PR's, I back off to a more classic strength approach, lots of 5x5, 5x3, multiple sets of singles, squatting gets scaled back to twice or 3 times a week but I shoot for PR's, I don't give bodyfat a second thought, I cut back the cardio work, and worry about peaking my strength levels, the only cardio I do here is light sled dragging on off days for AR only, believe me, it's not too taxing.

I love The Incredible Hulk, Ivan Drago was an awesome character, Believe me, If I could be at peak strength, peak speed, and peak endurance with max muscle and minimal fat year round, I would, but the world isn't perfect and we're ALL limited by being human.

 

[BiggT]

Of course many trainees just want better health, a better looking body, etc. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, and what they need to do is train soundly, eat a well-balanced diet, and enjoy their life. That comes down to goals of the individual again.

I just find it impossible to help someone who says they want to be a comic book freak, then you tell them to specialize, then they shoot back with they just want to look and feel better and really don't have much time to train, lol.

 

[swordfish151]

Great posts biggt....here is another question that was posed in anabolics...the stairmaster of the treadmill for fat loss...opinions..i have always felt that i needed my "whole" body in motion to feel like i was doing cardio, hence why i never jumped on a stationary bike..just peddled away and didnt break a sweat..i know that when i do the stairmaster its killer....so if they stair master "may" be better then the treadmill why do millions choose the treadmill..??

 

[BiggT]

Great posts biggt....here is another question that was posed in anabolics...the stairmaster of the treadmill for fat loss...opinions..i have always felt that i needed my "whole" body in motion to feel like i was doing cardio, hence why i never jumped on a stationary bike..just peddled away and didnt break a sweat..i know that when i do the stairmaster its killer....so if they stair master "may" be better then the treadmill why do millions choose the treadmill..??

Other than personal preference and specific performance goals, intensity is the key factor as far as which is better for fat loss. If you walk on the treadmill at 2 mph for 20 minutes while talking on your cell and reading Maxim Magazine, of course an intense stairmaster workout is better.....it's all about intensity, it's all what you make of it. If you can't tell because you work hard on both, my advice is to get a heart rate monitor, plug in your stats, and see what burnd more calories.....it may not make a difference.....and if you're not training your running, I say do whatever one you like better.

 

[thelion2005]

Wondering what you meatheads do for cardio when you are bulking cleanly.....and lean mass is your goal....I use early am cardio for cutting up and want to substitute training for a few cardio sessions on my off days....

Was thinking about a good sweat on the stationary bike.....anyone use it?

I'm lazy. 15-20 minutes on the recliner bike before every w/o.
Doesn't burn off precious muscle and raises all the indicators.

 

[BOWTECH]

I use the bike everyday 6 days a week. I keep the rpm level between 120-130. I will do this even during bulking phases. Keeps the cardio vascular system in top shape too

 

[trendmit]

i am doing the 5x5 bulking and on the cardio i do some swimming,, would that be too much or is that good?

 

[BiggT]

i am doing the 5x5 bulking and on the cardio i do some swimming,, would that be too much or is that good?

Swimming is low impact and does not batter the joints. Again, it depends on the swimming. If you're swimming 3 miles a shot, it isn't the best idea given your goals........Swimming can be great AR on off days though, it is just what you make of it.

 

[siamesedream]

It's just another thing that you'll have to find out for yourself, as is such a large part of this fitness game. I have quite a long history with HIIT, and it ended up doing jack squat for me after around 7 or so months. I've recently began doing high-intensity training for 31-37 minutes and burning around 510-570 calories or so and have been doing that 6x a week on an empty stomach and have been getting great results from it.

As for the recumbent bike, it started doing less and less for me. Full-body cardio such as running, etc. is what works best for me now.


Regardless of what people tell you or how much "science" they throw at you, you have to find out for yourself if their words mean anything. Science is about testability, and if your "tests" prove opposite results, the fitness "science" you read means nothing.

As far as weight training, I'm a madcow2/rippetoe/penndlay follower not because I've been convinced of their wisdom through reading, but because I've been convinced of their wisdom through testing the principles they've given me which have all proven to be far superior to everything else I've tried.

 

[anotherbutters]

I suppose my question was really 'given a fitness goal that is secondary to size and strength, if you're going to do cardio, should you attempt to increase your CV capacity or just do the same old HIIT session each time?' It just seems to me that if you do the same cardio workout each time, you're not providing a stimulus to get better. I understand specificity and everything biggt is saying. I suppose my plan would be to get fitter then maintain that new level of fitness. I never had the intention of continuing all the way down a CV program that led me to a 4 minute mile.

I guess I should try it and see how it goes.

 

[blut wump]

If you want to get fitter then, like with weights, you have to keep pushing harder. You find, as with weights, that last months workout feels easy. If it feels easy then don't expect to get much from it.

When I did cardio in gyms equipped with lots of stations and machines I would always switch exercises every 8-10 minutes. On each exercise I would work on settings/programs which offered interval-training or I'd do it myself by keeeping an eye on the clock. I'd strive to move up to a higher intensity whenever possible. I always saw my aerobic workouts in the same way as my weight training. I wanted to get the time in but progressive workloads are needed to progress your fitness. I would reduce my weight lifting to compensate when I was hitting the machines a lot otherwise my body would insist.

 

[anotherbutters]

My planned rowing machine workouts don't seem anywhere near as much fun as G5.0's just had in his cardio workout

 

[Protobuilder]

Heh. You want to have "fun" w/ your cardio? LoL Check out www.crossfit.com . If you follow their "workout of the day" every day, you'll get your butt in shape big time. I pick and choose some of their workouts and implement them. You'll feel your fitness increasing in a very real way.

Check out their pdf on "what is fitness?" http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf