Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
Can't sleep...
- Thread starter jaded
- Start date
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
jaded said:
On top of melatonin 9and possibly trying meditation!), I would recomend the following supplements:
VALERIAN preparation containing 60 mg valeric acids and 30 mg hops extract 5:1 for valeric acids) 400mg
L-THEANINE 200mg
PASSION FLOWER EXTRACT (passion flower incarnata) 4-8g
5-HYDROXYTRYPTOPHAN (5HTP) extracted from the seeds of the African plant, griffonia simplicifolia. 300mg
KAVA Piper methysticum
(standardized to contain a 70% kava lactone content)
210 mg of kavalactones
GAMMA-AMINOBUTYRIC ACID (GABBA)- Hydrochloride (GABA HCL) – MUST BE PURE
PICOLAMIN 50mg
SKULLCAP (Scutellaria lateriflora) 1g
PYRIDOXINE 100mg
TAURINE 5g
RHODIOLA ROSEA 150mg
If you would like me to explain the scientific rationale behind these recommendations, say the word!
p.s. Pleasant dreams
Lady Viking
Well-known member
morning 
i woke up an hour ago
i woke up an hour ago
outset2
New member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try this shit if you want to stay away from the prescription drugs, It helps a lot for a natural product. It helped me get off prescription stuff
Each pill contains
-melatonin
-valerian root
-chamomile
-jujube
-passion flower
-niacin
-calcium
-magnesium
ORDER AT www.greatnightsleep.com
Try this shit if you want to stay away from the prescription drugs, It helps a lot for a natural product. It helped me get off prescription stuff
Each pill contains
-melatonin
-valerian root
-chamomile
-jujube
-passion flower
-niacin
-calcium
-magnesium
ORDER AT www.greatnightsleep.com
S
Spartacus
Guest
doesn't really work for true stress induced insomniaoutset2 said:
Masturbate.
Don't open your eyes afterwards.
In professional school, we used to call it 'major tranquillizer'.
Milk has morphine like substance in it.
Eating diverts blood from brain to stomach. That is why you feel drowsy after a heavy meal.
Melatonin works for a lot of people.
Alcohol makes you fall sleep but it disturbs the sleep pattern.
All 'PM's contain generic Benadryl (diphenhydramine). Don't take Tyelenol PM. You don't need Tyelenol part. The 'PM' part is generic Benadryl. Take 50 mg (two tabs/capsules). It will cause dry mouth.
All of the above (except for masturbation) are scientific facts
(This is a repost)
Don't open your eyes afterwards.
In professional school, we used to call it 'major tranquillizer'.
Milk has morphine like substance in it.
Eating diverts blood from brain to stomach. That is why you feel drowsy after a heavy meal.
Melatonin works for a lot of people.
Alcohol makes you fall sleep but it disturbs the sleep pattern.
All 'PM's contain generic Benadryl (diphenhydramine). Don't take Tyelenol PM. You don't need Tyelenol part. The 'PM' part is generic Benadryl. Take 50 mg (two tabs/capsules). It will cause dry mouth.
All of the above (except for masturbation) are scientific facts
(This is a repost)
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
Anthrax said:
To explain my reasoning - I just sent 88 pages of research (not joking) to Jaded, I'll try to quickly answer your queries
1. I didn't mention a doseage of melatonin
2. HTP 3X DOSEAGE, not true -this source is from Rehan Jalili, the head of the sport supplement research foundation, many other sources/studies back up this doseage too:
5-hydroxytryptophan
5-HTP is the intermediate metabolite in the serotonin pathway. The amino acid L-tryptophan converts into 5-HTP and then 5-HTP converts directly into the important neurotransmitter serotonin. Serotonin is a key factor in determining sleep, appetite, mood, and other body functions including pain control. 5-HTP is basically the direct pre-cursor to serotonin. Some research suggests that oral 5-HTP supplementation can also increase other neurotransmitters and brain chemicals like dopamine, melatonin, and beta-endorphin. 5-HTP is very well absorbed orally and easily crosses the blood-brain barrier. According to several studies including one published in the Alternative Medicine Review in 1998, 5-HTP can effectively increase central nervous system production of serotonin. It can be taken with food without any competitive absorption problems. The 5-HTP that is found in supplements today is extracted from the seeds of the African plant, griffonia simplicifolia.
The dosages of 5-HTP vary with the desired effect. For improving sleep quality, taking 200-300 mg before bed time may be useful. For weight loss, the recommended dosage is 300 mg taken three times daily. For anti-depressive effects, a good dose is 100 mg three times daily. As you can see, 5-HTP has many benefits to exercising individuals
3. Taurine does not have any stimulatory effect (this is a myth) on top of this it is a cell volumizer, and as such is anti catabolic when taken before bed (added bonus)
Here is an extract from a relevant study:
Taurine helps maintain a steady and even heart beat, by helping to regulate the concentration of calcium ions.*3,4,7 It increases calcium concentration in the heart when plasma calcium is low and protects against calcium overload when calcium is abundant.*4
Taurine also functions as a neuroregulator and nerve cell growth factor.*1,2,5 It promotes a calming effect by inhibiting the release of norepinephrine and acetylcholine, and stimulating the release of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA).*5 Taurine increases the production of serotonin and melatonin by stimulating the activity of N-acetyltransferase, resulting in normalization of sleep and nerve functioning.*3,5
More reccomendations from Rehan (I spoke to him directly)
Taurine has possible cell volumizing and “insulin mimicking” effects and is the 2nd most abundant free amino acid in muscle tissue. Some animal research shows that it may lower muscle breakdown and support lean muscle mass. 5-10 grams daily are recommended especially after a hard workout and before bed time.
I thought you recommended 9 mg of melatonin (see your original post)
As for 5-HTP there are studies stating that 100mg befoe bed on an empty stomach is all that you need
GABA : I've read studies about GABA not crossing the brain barrier making it completely useless
Kava : I tried and it didn't do jack shit to me
anyway I'm confident your stack "works" but it's more than $2-3 a pill....
As for 5-HTP there are studies stating that 100mg befoe bed on an empty stomach is all that you need
GABA : I've read studies about GABA not crossing the brain barrier making it completely useless
Kava : I tried and it didn't do jack shit to me
anyway I'm confident your stack "works" but it's more than $2-3 a pill....
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
Anthrax said:
The 9 was a typo, it was supposed to be a bracket.
I guess what works for different people is individual.
If you must economise, take the GABBA/ taurine/ pyroxidine combination as their effects are synergistic. Theanine is also excellent -it is the ingredient in green tea that makes you feel calm (it stimulates alpha waves in the brain), inspite of the caffeine content. As such it is excellent for combatting the effects of stimulants. Melatonin really is the most effective supplement tho.
Here is some more info about 5HTP:
NOTE DOSEAGE RECCOMENDATIONS-
Dosage Should you decide to use 5-HTP, the typical dose is 300-900mg per day (usually in 2-3 doses throughout the day).
Hydroxy-tryptophan (5-HTP)
Description 5-HTP is a derivative of the amino acid tryptophan (a hydroxyl group added to the 5-position). In the body, tryptophan is converted into 5-HTP, which then can be converted into serotonin (a potent neurotransmitter in the brain). Although 5-HTP is not found at any significant level in a normal diet, tryptophan is found in a wide variety of protein foods. The 5-HTP used in dietary supplements is derived from the seeds of and African plant (Griffonia simplicifolia).
Claims Relieves mild to moderate depression
Relieves insomnia and promotes restful sleep
Promotes weight loss by suppressing appetite
Reduces overall sensation of pain (migraine headaches, fibromyalgia, general muscle pain)
Theory 5-HTP is typically used to treat mild depression based on the theory that as a precursor to serotonin, supplements of 5-HTP can increase serotonin levels and influence mood, sleep patterns and pain control. The amino acid, tryptophan, can also be broken down in the body to yield ribose and/or NAD – both of which have been associated with increased energy levels. While these are certainly logical theories, the scientific evidence supporting them remains moderate at best.
Scientific Support As indicated above, the overall scientific evidence for the effectiveness of 5-HTP is not very strong. In a few small studies, however, 5-HTP has been shown to be as effective as prescription antidepressant medications – and with fewer side effects – but there are just as many controlled clinical trials which have shown no effect of 5-HTP in alleviating mood disturbances. In other studies, doses of 5-HTP in the range of 300-900mg/day have resulted in benefits in reducing pain (migraines and fibromyalgia), reducing appetite and promoting sleep (possibly by increasing blood levels of melatonin). In some studies, it appears that there are “responders” – those individuals who experience an elevation in 5-HTP levels in the blood, as well as “non-responders” – who see no such increase
Several studies have investigated 5-HTP supplementation in conjunction with SSRI medications (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as fenfluramine and fluoxetine – Prozac). In this combination, 5-HTP could be expected to help increase serotonin synthesis, while the SSRIs would keep those levels elevated – but this hypothesis has not been shown to be particularly effective. In at least one study, 5-HTP actually appeared to cause an increase in depressive symptoms in healthy subjects – exactly the opposite effect that users of the supplement are looking for.
Safety The most significant safety concern related to 5-HTP supplements is the remote possibility for contamination with a compound linked to a disorder known as eosinophilic myalgia syndrome (EMS). Several years ago (1989), an outbreak of EMS (which results in muscle pain and weakness, vomiting, headache and in rare cases, death) was linked to contaminated tryptophan supplements (not to the tryptophan per se, but to a contaminant in the tryptophan supplements). As a result, the FDA banned the sale of all tryptophan supplements (a move that has been widely criticized by people on both sides of the supplement debate). In some rare cases, 5-HTP supplements have been linked (anecdotally) to gastrointestinal distress, muscle pain, lethargy and headaches
The banned tryptophan supplements were manufactured from a bacterial source (fermentation process), while 5-HTP is extracted from the seeds of a plant – so it is less likely (though not impossible) that the contaminant associated with EMS is present in 5-HTP supplements (commonly known as “peak X”). However, the FDA issued a “talk paper” in 1998 which seemed to confirm the presence of “peak X” at low levels in several commercially available brands of 5-HTP – raising the possibility that EMS could strike those taking 5-HTP supplements (see FDA statement below). Although the FDA has not taken any action, such as removing 5-HTP from the market or issuing any precautions against using 5-HTP, anybody considering using this supplement should use a brand from a reputable company (such as the Serotain brand of 5-HTP from Triarco). Some supplement manufacturers and raw material suppliers conduct quality control tests to confirm the absence of “peak X” in their 5-HTP supplements. If you decide to try 5-HTP, we suggest contacting the manufacturer of your supplement for confirmation that their products have passed this type of analysis.
In addition to the above safety considerations, 5-HTP supplements are not recommended for children or for women who are pregnant or lactating. Those individuals currently taking prescription antidepressants, weight control medications or herbal remedies for depression (such as St. John’s wort) should not combine these treatments with 5-HTP supplements (except on the advice and guidance of a nutritionally-oriented physician).
=======================================
**Note: the following text comes from the Food and Drug Administration. This report is based on an FDA-supported analysis of 5-HTP supplements and confirms findings reported in a short letter that Mayo Clinic researchers published in the journal Nature Medicine. The original letter has been widely criticized for having “political overtones” and for being openly “anti-supplement” – which is to say that the results should probably speak for themselves (that the “peak X” contaminant was indeed found at low levels), but that the interpretation of these findings (that 5-HTP supplements pose a health threat) is open to debate. Of particular interest is the fact that, worldwide, only 10 cases of EMS have been associated with 5-HTP-containing products (not linked directly to purified 5-HTP). When considered in terms of the millions of people currently using 5-HTP supplements on a regular basis, the “threat” of 5-HTP contamination as a public health menace is probably not large – but more research certainly needs to be done to confirm safety.
From the FDA website – view at http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/tp5htp.html
August 31, 1998
IMPURITIES CONFIRMED IN DIETARY SUPPLEMENT 5-HYDROXY-L-TRYPTOPHAN
FDA scientists have confirmed the presence of impurities in some 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan (5HTP) products currently marketed and widely promoted as dietary supplements. These products are being used as aids for insomnia, depression, obesity, and in children with attention deficit disorder. FDA's analytical results are consistent with those obtained and published by researchers from the Mayo Clinic.
One of these impurities is known as "peak X." Although the significance of finding "peak X" and other impurities in dietary supplements containing 5-HTP is unknown, past experiences with these products suggests vigilance is warranted. "Peak X" was identified in one case of the illness eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS) associated with 5HTP in 1991. Impurities similar to "peak X" were also found in L-tryptophan that was associated with a 1989 epidemic of EMS. 5HTP and L-tryptophan are related in that 5HTP is synthesized from L-tryptophan in the body. The exact cause of the 1989 epidemic and of the case of EMS associated with 5HTP remain unclear.
EMS is a serious systemic illness characterized by elevations of certain white blood cells and severe muscle pain. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has identified more than 1,500 cases of EMS, including at least 38 deaths associated with the use of L-tryptophan. The medical literature reports approximately 10 previous cases of EMS worldwide associated with use of products containing 5HTP.
Research has not resolved whether these EMS were caused by L-tryptophan or 5HTP, one or more impurities, or other factors. At this time, FDA is unaware of any recent illnesses associated with the 5HTP products being sold as dietary supplements. The widespread promotion and use of these products, however, began only recently.
Value Because commonly prescribed antidepressant medications are ineffective in about 30% of depressed patients, and because depression and anxiety disorders are associated with brains imbalances in serotonin, 5-HTP supplements would seem to be a logical approach to boosting serotonin levels and mood. Unfortunately, the scientific evidence for effectiveness is not strong – even though a few small studies have shown 5-HTP supplements to be beneficial in several serotonin-related conditions, many other studies have shown no benefits.
Dosage Should you decide to use 5-HTP, the typical dose is 300-900mg per day (usually in 2-3 doses throughout the day).
PART 2 PART 2 PART 2 PART 2 PART 2 PART 2 PART 2 PART 2 PART 2
Here are some studies, those which mention doses, see 5-HTP used at higher daily doses that I have prescribed (300 at bed time being optimum for the required purpose)
Altern Med Rev 1998 Aug;3(4):271-80
5-Hydroxytryptophan: a clinically-effective serotonin precursor.
Birdsall TC.
[email protected]
5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) is the intermediate metabolite of the essential amino acid L-tryptophan (LT) in the biosynthesis of serotonin. Intestinal absorption of 5-HTP does not require the presence of a transport molecule, and is not affected by the presence of other amino acids; therefore it may be taken with meals without reducing its effectiveness. Unlike LT, 5-HTP cannot be shunted into niacin or protein production. Therapeutic use of 5-HTP bypasses the conversion of LT into 5-HTP by the enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase, which is the rate-limiting step in the synthesis of serotonin. 5-HTP is well absorbed from an oral dose, with about 70 percent ending up in the bloodstream. It easily crosses the blood-brain barrier and effectively increases central nervous system (CNS) synthesis of serotonin. In the CNS, serotonin levels have been implicated in the regulation of sleep, depression, anxiety, aggression, appetite, temperature, sexual behaviour, and pain sensation. Therapeutic administration of 5-HTP has been shown to be effective in treating a wide variety of conditions, including depression, fibromyalgia, binge eating associated with obesity, chronic headaches, and insomnia.
Am J Clin Nutr 1992 Nov;56(5):863-7
Eating behavior and adherence to dietary prescriptions in obese adult subjects treated with 5-hydroxytryptophan.
Cangiano C, Ceci F, Cascino A, Del Ben M, Laviano A, Muscaritoli M, Antonucci F, Rossi-Fanelli F.
3rd Department of Internal Medicine, University of Rome, La Sapienza, Italy.
Previous observations have shown that oral administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) without dietary prescriptions causes anorexia, decreased food intake, and weight loss in obese subjects. To confirm these data over a longer period of observation and to verify whether adherence to dietary restriction could be improved by 5-HTP, 20 obese patients were randomly assigned to receive either 5-HTP (900 mg/d) or a placebo. The study was double-blinded and was for two consecutive 6-wk periods. No diet was prescribed during the first period, a 5040-kJ/d diet was recommended for the second. Significant weight loss was observed in 5-HTP-treated patients during both periods. A reduction in carbohydrate intake and a consistent presence of early satiety were also found. These findings together with the good tolerance observed suggest that 5-HTP may be safely used to treat obesity.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1998 Jul;22(7):648-54
Effects of oral 5-hydroxy-tryptophan on energy intake and macronutrient selection in non-insulin dependent diabetic patients.
Cangiano C, Laviano A, Del Ben M, Preziosa I, Angelico F, Cascino A, Rossi-Fanelli F.
Department of Clinical Medicine, University of Rome La Sapienza, Italy.
OBJECTIVE: In obese patients, brain serotonergic stimulation via orally administered 5-hydroxy-tryptophan (5-HTP), the precursor of serotonin, causes decreased carbohydrate intake and weight loss. Since diabetes mellitus is associated with depressed brain serotonin, hyperphagia and carbohydrate craving, we hypothesized that in diabetic patients, orally administered 5-HTP stimulates brain serotonergic activity and thus normalizes eating behaviour. To test this hypothesis, we investigated whether in diabetic patients: 1) predicted brain serotonin concentrations are depressed as a result of decreased availability of the precursor, tryptophan; and 2) oral 5-HTP is effective in reducing energy and carbohydrate intake. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: 25 overweight non-insulin dependent diabetic outpatients were enrolled in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, and randomized to receive either 5-HTP (750 mg/d) or placebo for two consecutive weeks, during which no dietary restriction was prescribed. Energy intake and eating behaviour, as expressed by macronutrient selection, were evaluated using a daily diet diary. Plasma amino acid concentrations and body weight, as well as serum glucose, insulin and glycosylated haemoglobin were assessed. RESULTS: 20 patients (nine from the 5-HTP group and 11 from the Placebo group) completed the study. Brain tryptophan availability in diabetic patients was significantly reduced when compared to a group of healthy controls. Patients receiving 5-HTP significantly decreased their daily energy intake, by reducing carbohydrate and fat intake, and reduced their body weight. CONCLUSIONS: These data confirm the role of the serotonergic system in reducing energy intake, by predominantly inhibiting carbohydrate intake, and suggest that 5-HTP may be safely utilized to improve the compliance to dietary prescriptions in non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus.
J Int Med Res 1990 May-Jun;18(3):201-9
Double-blind study of 5-hydroxytryptophan versus placebo in the treatment of primary fibromyalgia syndrome.
Caruso I, Sarzi Puttini P, Cazzola M, Azzolini V.
Rheumatology Unit, L. Sacco Hospital, Milan, Italy.
A double-blind, placebo-controlled study of the efficacy and tolerability of 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) was conducted in 50 patients with primary fibromyalgia syndrome. All the clinical parameters studied were significantly improved by treatment with 5-HTP and only mild and transient side-effects were reported. Further controlled studies are required to define properly the value of 5-HTP in patients with primary fibromyalgia syndrome.
Adv Exp Med Biol 1999;467:461-8
Eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome case-associated contaminants in commercially available 5-hydroxytryptophan.
Klarskov K, Johnson KL, Benson LM, Gleich GJ, Naylor S.
Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.
Recently, 5-hydroxy-L-tryptophan (5-OHTrp) has been promoted as an alternative to banned L-tryptophan as a dietary supplement. It has been claimed to help alleviate obesity, insomnia, depression, and headaches. However, eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS)-like symptoms have also been associated with ingestion or exposure to 5-OHTrp. HPLC-UV analysis of EMS-implicated 5-OHTrp revealed the presence of peak X, described as case-implicated. We show that peak X is actually a family of contaminants with the same molecular weight (234 Da) and similar HPLC retention times. We also demonstrate that all eight samples of commercially available 5-OHTrp analyzed by HPLC-MS contained three or more contaminants of the peak X family. The significance of these findings is discussed.
J Neural Transm 1989;76(2):109-17
The effects of oral 5-hydroxytryptophan administration on feeding behavior in obese adult female subjects.
Ceci F, Cangiano C, Cairella M, Cascino A, Del Ben M, Muscaritoli M, Sibilia L, Rossi Fanelli F.
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Rome La Sapienza, Italy.
Nineteen obese female subjects with body mass index ranging between 30 and 40 were included in a double-blind crossover study aimed at evaluating the effects of oral 5-hydroxytryptophan administration on feeding behavior, mood state and weight loss. Either 5-hydroxytryptophan (8 mg/kg/day) or placebo was administered for five weeks during which patients were not prescribed any dietary restrictions. Feeding behavior was investigated by means of a questionnaire designed to establish the onset of anorexia and related symptoms. Food intake was evaluated using a three-day diet diary. BDI, SI, STAI-T, and STAI-S were used to assess mood state. The administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan resulted in no changes in mood state but promoted typical anorexia-related symptoms, decreased food intake and weight loss during the period of observation.
Last edited:
SPORT SCIENTIST,
since the metabolic pathway is :
L-Tryptophan —> 5-HTP —> serotonin —> melatonin
Why would you take both 5-HTP and melatonin at the same time ?
It appears to me that 5-HTP is a interesting for depression, hunger control etc but just a more expensive version of melatonin when it comes to treating insomnia
Anyway thanks for the articles
since the metabolic pathway is :
L-Tryptophan —> 5-HTP —> serotonin —> melatonin
Why would you take both 5-HTP and melatonin at the same time ?
It appears to me that 5-HTP is a interesting for depression, hunger control etc but just a more expensive version of melatonin when it comes to treating insomnia
Anyway thanks for the articles
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
5 HTP is easier to get in some countries than melatonin for legal reasons - doesn't apply to the U.S. = and yes I wouldn't take 5HTP if you were taking melatonin (my suggestion is actually part of a formulae that I am getting developed - a night time milk protein isolate)
I think it is good that you questioned me on some of the suggestions, as it is stupid to accept things on face value. This is what makes a scientist, you ask questions, argue and reason. Without meaning to sound pompous, I welcome this. Karma
I think it is good that you questioned me on some of the suggestions, as it is stupid to accept things on face value. This is what makes a scientist, you ask questions, argue and reason. Without meaning to sound pompous, I welcome this. Karma
OK, so we agree on melatonin over 5-HTPSPORT SCIENTIST said:
Now let's talk about dosage
the 3mg regular pill is NOT based on scientific studies, nor even empiric experience
I have personaly experienced better results with 0.5mg than higher dosages though I know guys taking 1g (yes, 1000mg)
What's your opinion on the matter ?
SPORT SCIENTIST said:
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
Anthrax said:OK, so we agree on melatonin over 5-HTP
Now let's talk about dosage
the 3mg regular pill is NOT based on scientific studies, nor even empiric experience
I have personaly experienced better results with 0.5mg than higher dosages though I know guys taking 1g (yes, 1000mg)
What's your opinion on the matter ?
To be honest, I haven't done much research on it, but for me personally, I always took half a pill (1.5g). This worked great for me
I did a search of some online journals and found this study in which dosages were even as high as 12mg!
Melatonin for treatment of REM sleep behavior disorder in neurologic disorders: results in 14 patients.
Boeve BF, Silber MH, Ferman TJ.
Sleep Disorders Center, Mayo Clinic, 200 First Street SW, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To describe the treatment response with melatonin for rapid eye movement (REM) sleep behavior disorder (RBD) associated with other neurologic disorders.BACKGROUND: Clonazepam has been considered the treatment of choice for RBD. However, an alternative treatment is desirable for those with RBD refractory to clonazepam, for those who experience intolerable side-effects with clonazepam, and for those in whom clonazepam precipitates or aggravates obstructive sleep apnea (OSA). To date, there is minimal published data and limited follow-up regarding the use of melatonin for patients with RBD associated with other neurologic syndromes and disorders.DESIGN/METHODS: The response to melatonin treatment for RBD was reviewed on consecutive patients the investigators treated with this agent at Mayo Clinic Rochester from January 2000 to June 2001. The coexisting neurologic disorders, reasons for using melatonin, effective doses, side-effects, and duration of follow-up were also reviewed on all patients.RESULTS: Fourteen patients were commenced on melatonin over the specified time period (13 male, median RBD onset age 56 years, range 20-77 years). The coexisting neurologic findings/disorders were dementia with Lewy bodies (n=7), mild cognitive impairment with mild parkinsonism (n=2), multiple system atrophy (n=2), narcolepsy (n=2), and Parkinson's disease (n=1). The reasons for using melatonin in these cases were incomplete response of RBD to clonazepam in six patients, existing cognitive impairment in five, intolerable side-effects with clonazepam in two, and presence of severe obstructive sleep apnea and narcolepsy in one. With seven patients continuing to use clonazepam at 0.5-1.0 mg/night, RBD was controlled in six patients, significantly improved in four, and initially improved but subsequently returned in two; no improvement occurred in one patient and increased RBD frequency/severity occurred in one patient. The effective melatonin doses were 3 mg in two cases, 6 mg in seven cases, 9 mg in one case, and 12 mg in two cases. Five patients reported side-effects, which included morning headaches (2), morning sleepiness (2), and delusions/hallucinations (1); these symptoms resolved with decreased dosage. The mean duration of follow-up was 14 months (range 9-25 months), with eight patients experiencing continued benefit with melatonin beyond 12 months of therapy.CONCLUSIONS: In this series, persistent benefit with melatonin beyond 1 year of therapy occurred in most but not all patients. Melatonin can be considered as a possible sole or add-on therapy in select patients with RBD. Prospective, long-term, controlled trials with melatonin are warranted in a larger number of patients with RBD associated with a variety of neurologic symptoms and disorders.
However the following study made an intiguing assertion, SEE BOLD:
Melatonin for the prevention and treatment of jet lag.
Herxheimer A, Petrie KJ.
UK Cochrane Centre, 9 Park Crescent, London N3 2NL, UK. andrew [email protected]
BACKGROUND: : Jet-lag commonly affects air travellers who cross several time zones. It results from the body's internal rhythms being out of step with the day-night cycle at the destination. Melatonin is a pineal hormone that plays a central part in regulating bodily rhythms and has been used as a drug to re-align them with the outside world. OBJECTIVES: : To assess the effectiveness of oral melatonin taken in different dosage regimens for alleviating jet-lag after air travel across several time zones. SEARCH STRATEGY: : We searched the Cochrane Controlled Trials Register, MEDLINE, EMBASE, PsychLit and Science Citation Index electronically, and the journals 'Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine' and 'Sleep' by hand. We searched citation lists of relevant studies for other relevant trials. We asked principal authors of relevant studies to tell us about unpublished trials. Reports of adverse events linked to melatonin use outside randomised trials were searched for systematically in 'Side Effects of Drugs' (SED) and SED Annuals, 'Reactions Weekly', MEDLINE, and the adverse drug reactions databases of the WHO Uppsala Monitoring Centre (UMC) and the US Food & Drug Administration. SELECTION CRITERIA: : Randomised trials in airline passengers, airline staff or military personnel given oral melatonin, compared with placebo or other medication. Outcome measures should consist of subjective rating of jet-lag or related components, such as subjective wellbeing, daytime tiredness, onset and quality of sleep, psychological functioning, duration of return to normal, or indicators of circadian rhythms. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: : Ten trials met the inclusion criteria. All compared melatonin with placebo; one in addition compared it with a hypnotic, zolpidem. Nine of the trials were of adequate quality to contribute to the assessment, one had a design fault and could not be used in the assessment. Reports of adverse events outside trials were found through MEDLINE, 'Reactions Weekly', and in the WHO UMC database. MAIN RESULTS: : Nine of the ten trials found that melatonin, taken close to the target bedtime at the destination (10pm to midnight), decreased jet-lag from flights crossing five or more time zones. Daily doses of melatonin between 0.5 and 5mg are similarly effective, except that people fall asleep faster and sleep better after 5mg than 0.5mg. Doses above 5mg appear to be no more effective. The relative ineffectiveness of 2mg slow-release melatonin suggests that a short-lived higher peak concentration of melatonin works better. Based on the review, the number needed to treat (NNT) is 2. The benefit is likely to be greater the more time zones are crossed, and less for westward flights. The timing of the melatonin dose is important: if it is taken at the wrong time, early in the day, it is liable to cause sleepiness and delay adaptation to local time. The incidence of other side effects is low. Case reports suggest that people with epilepsy, and patients taking warfarin may come to harm from melatonin. REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: : Melatonin is remarkably effective in preventing or reducing jet-lag, and occasional short-term use appears to be safe. It should be recommended to adult travellers flying across five or more time zones, particularly in an easterly direction, and especially if they have experienced jet-lag on previous journeys. Travellers crossing 2-4 time zones can also use it if need be. The pharmacology and toxicology of melatonin needs systematic study, and routine pharmaceutical quality control of melatonin products must be established. The effects of melatonin in people with epilepsy, and a possible interaction with warfarin, need investigation.
Thus perhaps you should use a melatonon with a shorter half life (that is assuming you don't) - seems a maximum of 5mg was reccomended
This study shows an improved effect with a very high 10mg dosage. The telling thing, was that the melatonin was of a slow releases variety. Judging by thepositive mental effects of the study, it seems as though this type of melatnin is preferential for fighting depressive illness. It is also further evidence of the need to up doseages when using a slow release variety, and its relative inferiority to short release at relative doses:
Use of slow-release melatonin in treatment-resistant depression.
Dalton EJ, Rotondi D, Levitan RD, Kennedy SH, Brown GM.
Depression Clinic, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH-Clarke), Toronto, Ont.
OBJECTIVE: To examine antidepressant augmentation with and hypnotic effects of slow-release melatonin (SR-melatonin) in patients with treatment-resistant depression. DESIGN: Open-label trial. SETTING: Tertiary care outpatient depression clinic. PATIENTS: Nine outpatients who had failed to respond to 2 or more 8-week trials of antidepressant medication. INTERVENTIONS: Patients received SR-melatonin 5 mg per day for the first 2 weeks and 10 mg per day for the final 2 weeks, in addition to their antidepressant medication. OUTCOME MEASURES: Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV, Axis 1 Disorders, Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HRSD), Beck Depression Inventory, Response Style Questionnaire, sleep and fatigue measures. RESULTS: One patient was excluded after 1 week because of the development of a mixed affective state. In the remaining 8 patients there was a 20% mean decrease in HRSD scores after 4 weeks of treatment, with no individual achieving an improvement of 50% or more. There was a 36% decrease on the 3-item HRSD related to insomnia, with 4 of 8 patients showing at least a 50% improvement on this measure. The greatest decrease in insomnia occurred during the last 2 weeks of the study, following the increase in dosage to 10 mg per day of SR-melatonin. Patients also reported significantly lower levels of fatigue post-treatment. CONCLUSIONS: SR-melatonin may be a useful adjunct for sleep, but does not substantially augment existing antidepressant therapies in some patients with treatment-resistant depression.
Finally, I think it is important that you take the melatonin at a specific time before bed. The peak concentration of melatonin in your system varies depending on the type of melatonin you supplement. This study gives a good insight into when you should use it:
A melatonin preparation with a pulsatile liberation pattern: a new form of melatonin in replacement therapy.
Hoffmann A, Farker K, Dittgen M, Hoffmann H.
Department of Clinical Pharmacology University Hospital Jena, Jena, Germany. [email protected]
Using melatonin (MLT) as a circadian synchroniser in humans to treat rhythm disorders, it is desirable to have controlled-release dosage forms. Following in vitro liberation tests, one fast-release form containing 5 mg MLT (capsule A) and two oral pulsatile-dosage forms containing 10 mg MLT each (capsules B and C) were studied in a randomised, single-dose, threefold cross-over study in 15 healthy male volunteers after investigation of capsule B in dogs. Mean peak concentrations of MLT in serum (pmol/ml) were reached between 0.5 h and 0.75 h: Cmax1 20.7 (A), 16.4 (B), 9.7 (C). Capsules B and C released a second MLT pulse after about 3.5 h with Cmax2 of 13.0 and 17.5 pmol/ml, respectively. The time course of the renally excreted main metabolite 6-sulphatoxymelatonin (aMT6s) correlates with that of changes in MLT serum concentrations. The kinetic profile of the delivery system is adjusted to the pattern of sleep maintenance disturbances
Note: FAST RELEASE MELATONIN - "Mean peak concentrations of MLT in serum (pmol/ml) were reached between 0.5 h and 0.75 h" - this is tHE REASON WHY IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE, AND THAT YOU DO NOT NEED AS HIGH A DOSEAGE.
In conclusion it seems that you have a 30-45 minute window. Personal observation: I have never taken it when I was completely awake, just when I was starting to feel slightly tired. I think if you do this it will most likely be more likely to work. As a final aside, I think you should use the dosage that works for you, regardless of what any study says (5mg seems to be the suggested dosage)
Also remember to turn all the lights off!
Last edited:
Sassy69
New member
When I'm really worked about something & can't sleep, just taking one regular aspirin does wonders for settling down. Melatonin used to work but now I spend 2-3 hrs with really weird dreams and then I wake up again. Any OTC sleep-aid works as well, or if I don't have to be functional in the morning, something like excedrin PM will knock me out. But I'm a little flaky in the morning.
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
Sassy, good luck getting that 2nd chin up!
Samoth, I found this web site, which has some pretty good info:
http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml
I have posted a couple of threads about selegeline and vincopoceine (which are nootropic drugs:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374679
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373784
In addition, panax (asian) gingseng seems very interesting , as too gaba, picolamon and phenibut. I'm going to be away from the computer for a few hours. When I come back, I'll post something on panax gingseng - I am very interested about this, as it has been shown to improve reaction time (great supplement for sports people) -American gingseng not the same. There are also a lot of adaptogens such as Rhodeola Rosea that have nootropic effects (stimulates parasympathetic n.s. , and reduces stress)
If you would like me to go into more detail about any of these (I have research on a few others too) just ask.
Samoth, I found this web site, which has some pretty good info:
http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml
I have posted a couple of threads about selegeline and vincopoceine (which are nootropic drugs:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374679
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373784
In addition, panax (asian) gingseng seems very interesting , as too gaba, picolamon and phenibut. I'm going to be away from the computer for a few hours. When I come back, I'll post something on panax gingseng - I am very interested about this, as it has been shown to improve reaction time (great supplement for sports people) -American gingseng not the same. There are also a lot of adaptogens such as Rhodeola Rosea that have nootropic effects (stimulates parasympathetic n.s. , and reduces stress)
If you would like me to go into more detail about any of these (I have research on a few others too) just ask.
Ah, you posted on the supp board. There used to be some activity on the life extension/nootropic board, but that was years ago.
I was just wondering your personal opinion. I can search med journals myself.
I was wondering about the older, more established chemicals, mainly piracetam and hydergine. I find vasopressin/desmopressin interesting as well. Nothing extravagant, just your opinion on the three chem's nootropic effectiveness in healthy, young adults.
Since reliable (and credible) journals on normal, healthy and young subjects are few and far between, it's not very effective to use these for relevant support. I'm just curious what you think their possible mechanisms are, or the mechanisms behind their potential synergystic effect with respect to the aforementioned criteria.
By the way, I'm not sure of what vincopoceine is. If you meant vinpocetine, that was pretty far off, or else an analogue I've never heard of.
Thanks,
please don't post dozens of journal articles, it takes forever to search them to find experimental conditions, lol
I was just wondering your personal opinion. I can search med journals myself.
I was wondering about the older, more established chemicals, mainly piracetam and hydergine. I find vasopressin/desmopressin interesting as well. Nothing extravagant, just your opinion on the three chem's nootropic effectiveness in healthy, young adults.
Since reliable (and credible) journals on normal, healthy and young subjects are few and far between, it's not very effective to use these for relevant support. I'm just curious what you think their possible mechanisms are, or the mechanisms behind their potential synergystic effect with respect to the aforementioned criteria.
By the way, I'm not sure of what vincopoceine is. If you meant vinpocetine, that was pretty far off, or else an analogue I've never heard of.
Thanks,
please don't post dozens of journal articles, it takes forever to search them to find experimental conditions, lol
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
I was wondering about the older, more established chemicals, mainly piracetam and hydergine. I find vasopressin/desmopressin interesting as well. Nothing extravagant, just your opinion on the three chem's nootropic effectiveness in healthy, young adults.
Since reliable (and credible) journals on normal, healthy and young subjects are few and far between, it's not very effective to use these for relevant support. I'm just curious what you think their possible mechanisms are, or the mechanisms behind their potential synergystic effect with respect to the aforementioned criteria.
By the way, I'm not sure of what vincopoceine is. If you meant vinpocetine, that was pretty far off, or else an analogue I've never heard of.
Thanks,
please don't post dozens of journal articles, it takes forever to search them to find experimental conditions, lol[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing that you are involved in some kind of research or are a post graduate in a science related field? (I am a sport scientist/nutritionalist)
First off, the vinco was a typo - I missed the t (not spelt this way in the thread)
I'll be honest, I don't know a great huge amount about the chemicals you quoted. However, I have done a little research, of which a synopsis of my opinions on vasopressin/desmopressin is posted below (I am busy today, so I will give you my opinion of Hydergine and piracetam later. I've only posted 1 scientific article at the end of this post, as I think it will answer most of your questions regarding mechanisms of action - see end of post.
Vasopressin is a peptide hormone found naturally in the brain and is partly responsible for the formation of memories. Its effects rapidly improve short-term memory and enhance memory imprints (i.e. after the event).
Vassopressin is found in the part of the brain which is responsible for the creation of memories (hippocampus). It is a peptide hormone, which when administered enhances short term memory and memory imprints (i.e. after the event). It is usually used in the treatment of diabetes insipidus- but has some applications in the treatment of mental difficulties and the use of narcotics. The approved useage is that of decreasing the frequency of urination.
There seem to be side efffetcs associated with administration include nausea and headaches. BEWARE: because urination frequency is decreased, excessive water intake will dilute salt and possibly lead to a deficiency, whereby vomiting and convulsions may occur. People also sometimes get blocked or runny noses and nose bleeds/ Alergic reactions sometimes occur – i.e. itching, skin rash or sore nose.
I found these testimonials: "Unbelievable! The fog lifted and everything came into sharp detail for the first time in a long time and all within using vasopressin in a minute or so"
B.D., Idaho.
'Before my lectures and business meetings I think I'd be at a loss without my vasopressin for detailed recall!'
R.E., Texas
However, because of the possible side effects it is generally suggested that it is used on a needs basis (only when very strong concentration is required).
This is an exert from a website:
“So desmopressin is of particular benefit before lectures, business meetings and other such occasions. One conference attendee remarked to me, that he thought desmopressin was the ideal product for conferences; not only did he remember more of it, but it also helped him prevent trips to the rest-room!
The use of desmopressin 15 minutes before recall or concentration is required, (by inserting one or two sprays into each nostril- each spray contains 10mcg), can produce a marked affect, sometimes within seconds and the effect can then last for up-to several hours.”
I know that you said that you can look up scientific papers yourself, but this one seems to answer your question as to the function of the mechanisms in part. However, some aspects need further research, before a comprehensive answer can be given.
J Thromb Haemost. 2003 Apr;1(4):682-9. Related Articles, Links
Cellular mechanisms of the hemostatic effects of desmopressin (DDAVP).
Kaufmann JE, Vischer UM.
Division of Clinical Biochemistry, Geneva, Switzerland.
The synthetic analog of vasopressin desmopressin (DDAVP) is widely used for the treatment of patients with von Willebrand disease (VWD), hemophilia A, several platelet disorders, and uremic bleeding. DDAVP induces an increase in plasma levels of von Willebrand factor (VWF), coagulation factor VIII (FVIII), and tissue plasminogen activator (t-PA). It also has a vasodilatory action. In spite of its extensive clinical use, its cellular mechanism of action remains incompletely understood. Its effect on VWF and t-PA as well as its vasodilatory effect are likely explained by a direct action on the endothelium, via activation of endothelial vasopressin V2R receptor and cAMP-mediated signaling. This leads to exocytosis from Weibel Palade bodies where both VWF and t-PA are stored, as well as to nitric oxide (NO) production via activation of endothelial NO synthase. The mechanism of action of DDAVP on FVIII plasma levels remains to be elucidated. The hemostatic effect of DDAVP likely involves additional cellular effects that remain to be discovered.
Back later
Since reliable (and credible) journals on normal, healthy and young subjects are few and far between, it's not very effective to use these for relevant support. I'm just curious what you think their possible mechanisms are, or the mechanisms behind their potential synergystic effect with respect to the aforementioned criteria.
By the way, I'm not sure of what vincopoceine is. If you meant vinpocetine, that was pretty far off, or else an analogue I've never heard of.
Thanks,
please don't post dozens of journal articles, it takes forever to search them to find experimental conditions, lol[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing that you are involved in some kind of research or are a post graduate in a science related field? (I am a sport scientist/nutritionalist)
First off, the vinco was a typo - I missed the t (not spelt this way in the thread)
I'll be honest, I don't know a great huge amount about the chemicals you quoted. However, I have done a little research, of which a synopsis of my opinions on vasopressin/desmopressin is posted below (I am busy today, so I will give you my opinion of Hydergine and piracetam later. I've only posted 1 scientific article at the end of this post, as I think it will answer most of your questions regarding mechanisms of action - see end of post.
Vasopressin is a peptide hormone found naturally in the brain and is partly responsible for the formation of memories. Its effects rapidly improve short-term memory and enhance memory imprints (i.e. after the event).
Vassopressin is found in the part of the brain which is responsible for the creation of memories (hippocampus). It is a peptide hormone, which when administered enhances short term memory and memory imprints (i.e. after the event). It is usually used in the treatment of diabetes insipidus- but has some applications in the treatment of mental difficulties and the use of narcotics. The approved useage is that of decreasing the frequency of urination.
There seem to be side efffetcs associated with administration include nausea and headaches. BEWARE: because urination frequency is decreased, excessive water intake will dilute salt and possibly lead to a deficiency, whereby vomiting and convulsions may occur. People also sometimes get blocked or runny noses and nose bleeds/ Alergic reactions sometimes occur – i.e. itching, skin rash or sore nose.
I found these testimonials: "Unbelievable! The fog lifted and everything came into sharp detail for the first time in a long time and all within using vasopressin in a minute or so"
B.D., Idaho.
'Before my lectures and business meetings I think I'd be at a loss without my vasopressin for detailed recall!'
R.E., Texas
However, because of the possible side effects it is generally suggested that it is used on a needs basis (only when very strong concentration is required).
This is an exert from a website:
“So desmopressin is of particular benefit before lectures, business meetings and other such occasions. One conference attendee remarked to me, that he thought desmopressin was the ideal product for conferences; not only did he remember more of it, but it also helped him prevent trips to the rest-room!
The use of desmopressin 15 minutes before recall or concentration is required, (by inserting one or two sprays into each nostril- each spray contains 10mcg), can produce a marked affect, sometimes within seconds and the effect can then last for up-to several hours.”
I know that you said that you can look up scientific papers yourself, but this one seems to answer your question as to the function of the mechanisms in part. However, some aspects need further research, before a comprehensive answer can be given.
J Thromb Haemost. 2003 Apr;1(4):682-9. Related Articles, Links
Cellular mechanisms of the hemostatic effects of desmopressin (DDAVP).
Kaufmann JE, Vischer UM.
Division of Clinical Biochemistry, Geneva, Switzerland.
The synthetic analog of vasopressin desmopressin (DDAVP) is widely used for the treatment of patients with von Willebrand disease (VWD), hemophilia A, several platelet disorders, and uremic bleeding. DDAVP induces an increase in plasma levels of von Willebrand factor (VWF), coagulation factor VIII (FVIII), and tissue plasminogen activator (t-PA). It also has a vasodilatory action. In spite of its extensive clinical use, its cellular mechanism of action remains incompletely understood. Its effect on VWF and t-PA as well as its vasodilatory effect are likely explained by a direct action on the endothelium, via activation of endothelial vasopressin V2R receptor and cAMP-mediated signaling. This leads to exocytosis from Weibel Palade bodies where both VWF and t-PA are stored, as well as to nitric oxide (NO) production via activation of endothelial NO synthase. The mechanism of action of DDAVP on FVIII plasma levels remains to be elucidated. The hemostatic effect of DDAVP likely involves additional cellular effects that remain to be discovered.
Back later
Last edited:
Thanks, but you didn't address desmopressin's mechanism. Or anything having to do with healthy, young adults. Or any opinion, really... just a brief synopsis of what it is and what it does - which didn't really state any opinion at all. And I don't know who "an exert from a website" is, but I'm sure he is very important.
No need to cut and paste anything, I was just curious if you had any a priori opinion. Thanks anyway.
No need to cut and paste anything, I was just curious if you had any a priori opinion. Thanks anyway.
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
samoth said:
SPORT SCIENTIST said:
No offence intended, however, you did not address any one of the points I mentioned. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Almost all studies done involving nootropics are not with healthy or young adults. That is the primary source of contraversy as to whether they have any affect on 'normal', healthy and young individuals. And, as someone who is involved in research like yourself undoubtedly knows, stating "an expert from a web site" is ludacris, in any field. Perhaps your country differs somewhat in what is expected in graduate research, but what do you honestly think your advisor would say to any of his/her students doing that? Like I said, I honesly intended no offence or rudeness, but I was a tad confused by your response. I'm guessing you haven't published yet. When it comes closer to that time, you'll learn from your advisor when he reviews your article(s).
SPORT SCIENTIST
Banned
samoth said:
Actually, I've published various articles on exercise physiology, training and nutrition since graduating a few years ago. However this was not one of them. I had about 20 minutes to combine what I already knew with some info off the internet. I would never publish anything like this, or use quotes from websites - however this is not a scientific publication. - seeing as you said there was no scientfic studies on healthy adults (and I don't have the time to check), I thought the extract, however flawed it is, was relevant (albeit just heresay)
p.s. I am not Thai, just live here at the moment as I am adopting my stepson (wife is Thai). I am English, and graduated from the University of Westminster (first class)
I need to supervise my kids now, so I'll knock it on the head today. As you can appreciate, giving an extensively researched answer (especially about 3 agents) is time consuming, and I don't have time at the moment. When I have time, I'll try to research your question more thoroughly and give you a better answer, although because it dilutes salts- you are asking for trouble. The homeostatic mechanism regarding the sodium potassium pump, aldesterone and ADH are finely balanced. Sodium has a central role in the balance of fluid and electrolytes- essential for neuromuscular excitability, secretory activity, membrane permeability and many other functions- in my opinion it is not worth altering the dilution of solutes due to the possible consequences. Take care
Last edited:
B
BrothaBill
Guest
Samoth laying the smack down hahaha! I saw the baiting a mile away LOL!! You being an expert I was wondering what your opinion is on... hahaha!
Forget the supplements for insomnia too much of a hassle, just go with the light goggles. Maybe some warm milk.
Forget the supplements for insomnia too much of a hassle, just go with the light goggles. Maybe some warm milk.
I'm still totally offended that this thread pertains to someone wanting to sleep, whilst I am trying to go without it so I can study for this damn exam.
I just need to find a way to stop my body from adapting to stimulants. Stupid body thinks it always wins. I'll totally show it! I'll tot ally lay t he s m a*
I just need to find a way to stop my body from adapting to stimulants. Stupid body thinks it always wins. I'll totally show it! I'll tot ally lay t he s m a*
B
BrothaBill
Guest
Hahahaha! I like the end there!
HAH! Stimulants and the annoying tendency to adapt. Thats why I dont drink coffee for more than two weeks at a time twice a year, just save til I need it.
I remember locking myself away from people for days with studying, one semester we had five classes all pain in the ass. Noninvasive procedures, invasive procedures in the cath lab, medical physics, I cant even remember one. We had this german Cardiologist who couldnt speak english hardly at alll teaching us cardiac physiology and electrophysiology and we did a chapter every week from the text this was on top of all the other full load and labs, two lectures and an exam on friday. Absolutely no life. I dont know how we did it looking back.
Im so glad I dont have to take exams again, not even boards, just advanced cardiac life support certifications every two years. Other than that its clear sailing. Just cmes, continuing medical education classes and conferences.
Speaking of which, I think might catch some zzzzzzzzzzzz myself.
HAH! Stimulants and the annoying tendency to adapt. Thats why I dont drink coffee for more than two weeks at a time twice a year, just save til I need it.
I remember locking myself away from people for days with studying, one semester we had five classes all pain in the ass. Noninvasive procedures, invasive procedures in the cath lab, medical physics, I cant even remember one. We had this german Cardiologist who couldnt speak english hardly at alll teaching us cardiac physiology and electrophysiology and we did a chapter every week from the text this was on top of all the other full load and labs, two lectures and an exam on friday. Absolutely no life. I dont know how we did it looking back.
Im so glad I dont have to take exams again, not even boards, just advanced cardiac life support certifications every two years. Other than that its clear sailing. Just cmes, continuing medical education classes and conferences.
Speaking of which, I think might catch some zzzzzzzzzzzz myself.
M
*MissFit*
Guest
I have taken both htp-5 and mel..
To me.. both are effective, but for different reasons.. htp-5 helps me relax, and mel helps me fall asleep
To me.. both are effective, but for different reasons.. htp-5 helps me relax, and mel helps me fall asleep
mountain muscle
New member
Shouldn't you be asleep old lady?
Anthrax said:
Studies and research regarding piracetam in healthy, young individuals is sketchy at best. Most, if not all, is derived from theoretical models and extrapolated from cases involving some form of degeneration of the brain.
However, unlike many here today, gone tomorrow bodybuilding supplements, nootropics have been an underground drug with an almost cult following for a couple decades. I believe that in itself holds some ground, albeit not the most solid.
Most nootropics are purported to take a month or two to exhibit their full potential neurological effect. This, coupled with a lack of any physical 'drug-like' effects that can be 'felt' immediately, lend to a more long-term use or survey of individuals needed to surmise whether or not the drug does indeed have any effect. Moreover, the dose dependency of the drug's action seems to warrent higher doses than many are willing to take, either by seemingly unnecessary quantities or lack of monetary funds.
I don't support or recommend the drug to anyone save the small class of individuals with an open mind, willing and able to take the time and money to try something that may very well yield no results. That group consists primarily of those within academia, where the possibility of even a small affect would yield maximum benefeit.
Personally, I think there exists a slight increase in memory recall. Whether or not this consists of short or long term memory, and whether the results warrent the price and hassle, I can't conclude.
The only nootropic with a truly 'drug-like' neurological effect is the hormone desmopressin. However, the primary mechanism of the drug places moderately narrow limitations on the drug's use in cognitive enhancement.
M
*MissFit*
Guest
I have been up since 5am Saturday 
mountain muscle said:
