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Can muscles shrink while on AAS by over-training?
- Thread starter LoneTree
- Start date
I know that you have a lot of experience, but I beg to differ with you.biteme said:
In my first cycle, I lost fat and gained muscle. I did eat enough protein. But that can only happen if you don't eat enough.
In a recent poll, 2/3rd of the responders agreed that you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. That would happen only if you eat less.
In my second cycle, I have not been eating enough. But I have at least not lost any muscle and definitely have lost fat.
Probably, the effects are different with short term use compared to long term use.
TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT
New member
LoneTree said:
you gotta be kidding
while the obvious answer is yes, this is my experience so far
3 weeks in to tbol/sus
cals reduced to 2000-2500 per day, i burn up to 4100
protein around 200g/day
training for 2-3 hours 4 days/wk, TRAINING HARD, trust me I dont pussyfoot around when im at the gym
lost good amounts of fat so far, ive lost about 5-6 lbs. ive lost around an inch off the waist. Ive added 1/4" or a little more to my arms. Gotten ALOT stronger in just 3 weeks. Clearly the results speak for themselves, if you do it right the answer is NO, if not, YES you will.
and im on nolva and arimidex, so no bloat or "water strength" to speak of.
3 weeks in to tbol/sus
cals reduced to 2000-2500 per day, i burn up to 4100
protein around 200g/day
training for 2-3 hours 4 days/wk, TRAINING HARD, trust me I dont pussyfoot around when im at the gym
lost good amounts of fat so far, ive lost about 5-6 lbs. ive lost around an inch off the waist. Ive added 1/4" or a little more to my arms. Gotten ALOT stronger in just 3 weeks. Clearly the results speak for themselves, if you do it right the answer is NO, if not, YES you will.
and im on nolva and arimidex, so no bloat or "water strength" to speak of.
Boston Strangler
New member
I guess you could....I have tried to overtrain on gear and I don't think I can. I usually get too exhausted before I can overtrain.
P
PolfaJelfa
Guest
yes
karachi183
New member
"I was on a cycle and tried that myoplex crap because of all the protein it contained."
I actually thought myoplex was the shit if u wanna gain but it shouldn't used as a meal replacement and if is then you might very well loose muscle. and if you reduce cals but keep protein intake very high you most certainly will loose muscles or i should say size (fat also shouldn't be counted as quality size or muscle). The problem i see every year is that people wanna get big without hitting the weights in the winter. So what happens they wanna get big and loose fat at the same time. Which can be done but is very hard IMO. Diet (60p/40c)is the key. my 2 cents
I actually thought myoplex was the shit if u wanna gain but it shouldn't used as a meal replacement and if is then you might very well loose muscle. and if you reduce cals but keep protein intake very high you most certainly will loose muscles or i should say size (fat also shouldn't be counted as quality size or muscle). The problem i see every year is that people wanna get big without hitting the weights in the winter. So what happens they wanna get big and loose fat at the same time. Which can be done but is very hard IMO. Diet (60p/40c)is the key. my 2 cents
triplesixmaf
New member
absolutly dont overtrain, find the perfect amount that makes you grow and stick with it, i like once a week 3 or 4 lifts per muscle 5 sets of 5 , 4 sets of 4 the next week, step down each week until you get to 1 set of one and just max. as your strength and lifts increase your body increases
secrest out
secrest out
21gun
New member
ok. Overtraining = lowered motivation, loss of appetite, sleep deprivation, etc... you get the picture. Sure you won't lose much size if any at all. But, why be on shit if you will overtrain and ruin all the gains you COULD have had? Listen to your body and recognize the signs. If any of the previously mentioned signs are "on" then it is time to take a couple of days off and eat like a horse. Then, return ready to go again.
krishna
New member
JKurz1 said:
If you overtrain, you break down the muscles too much and send them into a catabolic state. You don't give them enough rest and nutrition to rebuild, which is how you grow muscle. If you are continually breaking down muscle fibers, how can they get bigger? Think about it bro. If you overtrain, you're essentially devouring your own muscle.
karachi183
New member
This is y most BB'ers use low reps with heavy weight. And also y most BB'ers only hit each body part once a week and at most twice (IE: arms maybe twice like mon and friday spread out) when u over train ur not giving ur body enough time to repair itself fixing all the torn tissue so it's starts to breakdown. Thus loosing fat and muscle unless you have extremley high protein intake which won't make that much of a difference and you'll be fatigued as hell etc..
If your motivation is high - you can't wait till you hit again.21gun said:
You are not fatigued between the workouts.
Your appetite is good.
You don't workout when your body is sore.
Your get 8+ hours of good sleep.
Am I right to asume that: if you have all of the above, you are not overtraining. Right?
As for losing fat and gaining muscle, I have solid proof of my own:
In my first cycle, I gained 8-10 lbs while losing 3-4 lbs fat.
Now, my fat is disappearing and my weight is same or more. I can see my muscles bulking, though slowly.
I hate to see fat on my body. I would rather gain slowly than gain excess fat.
JKurz1
Banned
I could easily train 7x a week and be 110% every time in........I guess I'm just antsy by nature as I've been active all my life....to sit behind a desk now for 9+ hours puts me in a state of mysery.......I was cut out for contruction work.....maybe own my own company, cause somewhere, this CPA has to come in as not a total waste of 7 years.........krishna said:
karachi183
New member
JKurz1 said:
9+ hours puts me in a state of mysery.. Well if you put it like than i guess no.. LOL
triplesixmaf
New member
you know when your overtraining, some guys can handle lifting 7 days a week but i ddoubt they are getting the results that they could with a more recovery based workout, i say hit each muscle intense for a short period of time once or twice a week and if you start feeling way too tired or weak then your doing too much, everybody is different...........................................................................................................or are we the same?
secrest out
secrest out
Based on my research from multiple sources, and my own results, I have reached the following conclusion:
1. Muscles do not take that long to recover. Smaller muscles takes less time to recover than larger muscles. Biceps only take 48 hrs to recover (Arnold's book). That is without AAS.
2. AAS speeds up the recovery and decreases the recovery period.
If you are not sore, go ahead and work out.
So, WHILE ON AAS:
You can easily work out arms muscles 2-3/week.
Larger muscles, 2/week.
If you are doing less than that, you are not getting all you can achieve from your cycle.
1. Muscles do not take that long to recover. Smaller muscles takes less time to recover than larger muscles. Biceps only take 48 hrs to recover (Arnold's book). That is without AAS.
2. AAS speeds up the recovery and decreases the recovery period.
If you are not sore, go ahead and work out.
So, WHILE ON AAS:
You can easily work out arms muscles 2-3/week.
Larger muscles, 2/week.
If you are doing less than that, you are not getting all you can achieve from your cycle.
Güclü_oglan
New member
high levels of cortisol isn't good when you wanna build muscle so i say may be
LoneTree said:
I'm sorry man but that is just not research or science. Arnold may have been a great BBer but it's certainly not because he understands even the basics of exercise science. Look up studies on complete tissue remodeling with regard to weight training. Just logically there are going to be parameters that can drastically pull this single session figure to either side including:
-The conditioning of the athlete (to what training loads has this athlete accustomed himself)
-The level of fatigue present (you'll need to understand dual factor or fitness fatigue theory which is absolutely key for periodization)
-The amount of work performed (volume i.e. 3 sets of 8 or 100 sets of 8)
-The intensity with which the work is performed (i.e. are all these sets being done with 90%+ of your 1RM or are we talking 10% featherweight sets).
If you are inclined to really learn beyond the bogus stuff presented in the BBing mags, the ignorance of which never ceases to amaze me and really harms the results of so many people in the gyms, you can check out any of these books which are widely regarded as some of the finest ever written on the subject:
www.elitefts.com - Go to the books on training. You'll find the following (in no particular order):
A System of Multi Year Training in Weightlifting
Fundmentals of Special Strength Training in Sport
Supertraining (plus lots of others by Siff)
Managing the Training of Weightlifters
Science and Practice of Strength Training
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To the topic, of course it can happen. AAS only increases one's tolerances and ability to recover - it does not provide unlimited lattitude in the loads that can be applied and the duration one can tolerate them.
I can take just about anyone in the world and have them perform 20 grinding sets of backsquats and deadlifts with > 90% weight on the frequency of 10 sessions per week and drive them into overtraining very quickly. And if I don't let up, their strength will decrease steadily while they become walking zombies until the body doesn't kill itself. No doubt the overwhelming stimulus and sharpe drop off in strength will take it's toll and they'll wind up loosing significant muscle over the period.
An extreme case but sometimes a question or theory of possibility is best tested by looking at the extremes.
I can take just about anyone in the world and have them perform 20 grinding sets of backsquats and deadlifts with > 90% weight on the frequency of 10 sessions per week and drive them into overtraining very quickly. And if I don't let up, their strength will decrease steadily while they become walking zombies until the body doesn't kill itself. No doubt the overwhelming stimulus and sharpe drop off in strength will take it's toll and they'll wind up loosing significant muscle over the period.
An extreme case but sometimes a question or theory of possibility is best tested by looking at the extremes.
Joe Stenson
New member
Overtraining is a state your body goes into, not something that happens after a certain number of sets. There are a plethora of factors involved including the individual's own response to training, nutrition, sleep, etc.
Generally speaking though, if you are eating and sleeping enough, you probably are not going to overtrain. It's more likely the guys who are in the gym 7 days a week, eating 2000 calories/day and getting 4 hours/night that are going to be overtrained.
Generally speaking though, if you are eating and sleeping enough, you probably are not going to overtrain. It's more likely the guys who are in the gym 7 days a week, eating 2000 calories/day and getting 4 hours/night that are going to be overtrained.
silverbackn
New member
I have one thing to say, "pre-contest diet". You obviously lose size and strength.
My problem is with people who, on AAS, recommend working out every muscle group once a week.
I have seen several academic studies.
There is very good discussion on strength training in 'Physiology of Sports And Exercise'.
Arnold didn't himself write the book. It's only his name on the cover.
I am using his 'pyramidal' work out routine.
I am working out each muscle group at least twice a week.
If it is sore, I don't work it out. If it is not, I work out.
I have been able to increase weight IN EACH WORKOUT.
Initially, I could only feel increased strength, now I am bulking.
I have seen several academic studies.
There is very good discussion on strength training in 'Physiology of Sports And Exercise'.
Arnold didn't himself write the book. It's only his name on the cover.
I am using his 'pyramidal' work out routine.
I am working out each muscle group at least twice a week.
If it is sore, I don't work it out. If it is not, I work out.
I have been able to increase weight IN EACH WORKOUT.
Initially, I could only feel increased strength, now I am bulking.
silverbackn
New member
I am on AAS and I only do each muscle group once a week. I will be sore for 5 days after I lift every bodypart. Everyone is different. I'm on a gram of test right now and my recovery still isn't good enough to hit everything twice a week. I would fall apart if I did that.LoneTree said:
silverbackn
New member
I usually do about 15 sets for most bodyparts, over 20 for wheels.tommboy said:
LoneTree said:
Absolutely. Especially if you don't feed the muscle what it need to rebuild, recover, and repair IMMEDIATELY after training. A minimum of 50 grams whey protein, and 60-80 grams of carbs/sugar post workout, while you're still in the freaking locker room sweating. "Hey man, how come I can't gain and I'm taking all this juice?"
nutrition is the chief factor controlling muscle loss/gain. Overtraining really is secondary. In fact, if you were to find a program and deliberately overtrain while juicing and eating a lot -- you'd make great gains. Especially because you'd have to train with more volume or frequency to overtrain, and both of those build muscle faster.
Of course if you want to gain more it's easier just to up the dose than try and manipulate training variables
Of course if you want to gain more it's easier just to up the dose than try and manipulate training variables
wow you guys are seriously makeing me so scared I am overtraining and im only hitting the gym 5-6 days a week with a 4 day split. I am on 500mg of test too and get 8 -10 hours everynight. Now today I wake up and I have felt all tired most of the day, (like a walking zombie) You guys seriously got that into my head and now all day I am scared that I am overtraining!!!
bicepts101
New member
needsize said:
there has been days ive felt over trained on bis and tris day
Singleton
New member
For me, I can train 12-13 times a week (7 of those are AM Yoga/pilates), but I have to sleep about 8.5 - 9 hours and sometimes take a nap during the day. Of couse, my workouts are usually vy low volume. But that's me.
So I would have to say that sleep is the most important thing for me. If I get < 8 hours for over 4 days, I'll start to feel heavy and weak and tired and I'll be short of breaths and can't recoup btn. sets and become overtrained. Steroids do not seem to alleviate the need for me to sleep a lot.
So I would have to say that sleep is the most important thing for me. If I get < 8 hours for over 4 days, I'll start to feel heavy and weak and tired and I'll be short of breaths and can't recoup btn. sets and become overtrained. Steroids do not seem to alleviate the need for me to sleep a lot.
solidspine
New member
I think it may depend on each individual,
if I am on a serious cycle,
I don't think it is possible to over train.
if I am on a serious cycle,
I don't think it is possible to over train.
bicepts101
New member
steroids do nothing for me other than make me more tired.....as stated before over trainging is as easy to accumulate in the gym. it all starts with diet and rest plain and simple
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