Breasts: A Rant

[wend]

You know, we've been talking about breasts in here recently...between the thread about breast augmentation and the one about whether or not women should train chest (I mean, I know there's not supposed to be any such thing as a stupid question, but come on!), I've been thinking about breasts and how they're perceived in society and what they're really for...

Somebody (a so-called man) in the breast augmentation thread even called them "balloons" in one post. We let it slide, but, dang, don't you think that's kinda obnoxious? To come into the women's forum and refer to part of our anatomy in such a way? Hooters, knockers, tatas, titties...I bet between all of us we could think of at least fifty "terms of endearment" for our mammary glands, none of which really seem all that nice.

And Dayna, no offense, but between your avatar and your screen name, what am I supposed to think? That I'm supposed to envy you those? My best friend has some like that, and I'll tell you what, after a frustrating nursing experience (she had to bottle feed because they were so big that her baby couldn't latch on) and her current back problems, I'm afraid I don't envy you your extra-large set.

And Boscoe, forgive me, but in your thread, you accused another lady of not being a lady because "no girl talks like that." Well, I've been thinking about that, too. And you're right. No GIRL talks like that. But plenty of women do.

You know, real men and women know exactly what breasts are for. They're for feeding babies. They're why mammals are so damned successful. We make food for our young. It's really pretty amazing, almost miraculous.

They're also a heckuva lot of fun to play with, but that's secondary.

And on the subject of plastic surgery, I don't mean to not be "supportive" for those who make (or have made) that choice, but I think we need to be honest here. (Or at least I'm going to choose to be.) Plastic surgery is not a casual decision (and shouldn't be made over the course of a pregnancy, but over much more time, waiting to see what your breasts look like after a year or so post partum). It's serious, and can be dangerous (as any surgery can be). You know why they stopped using silicone? Because sometimes the silicone leaks, and some people have severe reactions to it. It can cause autoimmune disorders that can be debilitating and painful. It can mean the end of life in the gym, that's for sure. I'm not sure why they've started using it again...and I really don't understand why any woman would choose to have such a substance put into her body, just to fulfil a media-fed stereotype of the ideal female form. And to cut muscle for the same reason...well, frankly, I think that's nuts. Surgeons aren't gods...they make mistakes. To elect to have such a procedure...well. It's at best foolish...and maybe even crazy.

Well, sorry to squish anyone's toes, but as one of the elders here, I just had to say my piece. Good night, and god bless.

 

[mrstamiina]

HHAHAH WOOOW!

 

[boscoe wilson]

I have a response to the part about the decision being made during the coarse of my pregnancy...I had the procedure paid for and scheduled BEFORE my pregnancy but couldn't follow through because I found out I was pregnant. I respect your views on natural breasts, as I'm sure many others do, but you can look at AS in the same light, tanning etc. Though I know these are not as extreme, they are all a part of vanity, and all women posess vanity right? Well, I'm unhappy with a certain aspect of my body and have decided to fix it. I wasn't seeking your approval or anyone elses. I just had a few questions to ask and thought I could do so without being ripped up on the women's board. Guess I was wrong.

 

[wend]

Boscoe, this wasn't at all intended as a rip. (If I'd wanted to do that, I'd have done it in your thread.)

I'm glad that this isn't a decision that you've rushed into. Clearly, it's a personal one and I respect that. But I also realize that there may be other young women reading here, and I couldn't not say what I felt needed saying.

 

[boscoe wilson]

Well, then I'm sorry for what I just posted on the chat board. How young do you have to be to get a pair? I'm 26, is that old enough?

 

[Raina]

I think that plastic surgery is a VERY personal decision. And while I might not opt for it, that doesn't mean others don't have the right to-- particularly if they've done a lot of research prior to the procedure.

Has anyone ever seen the documentary "Breasts"? It's really an interesting one interviewing women of all different ages and races, women with natural and implanted breasts. It's just women talking about the relationship they have with their breasts and I recommend it to anyone. I found it thought provoking and was delighted that it was so honest and not sexualized.

As for the reactions of men-- I guess it's the modern focus as a tiny waist was a long time ago. And it's funny what people will say online because I guarantee you they wouldn't be making the same comments in person. To each their own. Mine are sore all the time and I'm looking forward to going off the pill in a couple of months so they stop being so swollen and ouch.

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

lots of misinformation in your post-- "It can mean the end of life in the gym, that's for sure."...so can a car accident!!

geez... if you dont want implants thats your choice but you really dont have a clue about plastic surgery.

& BTW I think Dayna's avatar rocks

 

[Daisy_Girl]

I think our differences, our goals, and our personal decisions are what makes us all special.

You can look at anything we do as "not normal". For example, my daily diet is deficient in almost ALL the vitamins and minerals, most notably calcium. Is this healthy? No. But I made a personal decision, based off my goals and what I want out of myself and my life, and chose to eat what I do. And live the life I do. Most fitness professionals and bodybuilders are VERY unhealthy. They train too hard, diet too much, tan too much and often take too many drugs. It is, by nature, a self-obsessed unhealthy life.

I equate this to plastic surgery. It is a CHOICE on what an individual wants for themselves. And far be it from me to judge them for their decisions simply because it is not a path I might choose for myself.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

FYI Wend - I came VERY close to deleting the 'balloons' thread. It was so offensive to me too. But since nobody complained at the time, I left it alone.

For the future, everyone, if something or someone offends you, annoys you or generally makes you feel uncomfortable - PLEASE let me know. I might not always be able to do something about it, but by God, I'll do what I can.

 

[Saddlebags]

They use saline now.

 

[Saddlebags]

I wouldn't want breast surgery even though I would be a darn good candidate for a lift at least....

But I am considering lyposuction. I hate surgery, it hurts and I've never felt as good afterwards as the doctors claimed, so I'm trying to get my stubborn thighs and butt to get with the picture through diet and exercise. I'm giving it 'till I'm 30, If they are still so ugly that I could clear a beach then I will probably go for it. I don't even see it as unhealthy necessarily, It depends on the person and what it would do for them. Some small amounts of lyposuction would do so much for me mentally that the risks and cost are well worth it to me.

 

[boscoe wilson]

FYI Wend - I came VERY close to deleting the 'balloons' thread. It was so offensive to me too. But since nobody complained at the time, I left it alone.

For the future, everyone, if something or someone offends you, annoys you or generally makes you feel uncomfortable - PLEASE let me know. I might not always be able to do something about it, but by God, I'll do what I can.

I know there are many different views for this topic, but like daisy said, it is all up to the individual. No one has convinced me I needed to do it, I've made the choice on my own and my husband approves. I don't think there is anything wrong with natural breasts. I'm just tired of mine! I've been a large C since junior high, and now they're not so high! I hate having to wear a damn strapless bra with everything in the summertime! Implants have been around since the late 60's. They were originally designed for women who've nursed children, but just like anything there are risks. Alot of women on this board use AS, as do I. I've wieghed out the pro's and con's and decided to take my chances. Life's too short!

 

[Ceebs]

Most fitness professionals and bodybuilders are VERY unhealthy. They train too hard, diet too much, tan too much and often take too many drugs. It is, by nature, a self-obsessed unhealthy life.

What a funny dichotomy - doing unhealthy things to create an image of health and fitness.

Good rant, wend.

 

[Blaithin]

Wend, I get what you are saying. It's crossed my mind more than a few times. I struggle quite often with what the media and society now perceives as a hot body. On one hand who doesn't want to look good but on the other I try very hard to accept my body as is. I want to have muscle and it happens to result in a look that is appealing to me, but I mainly want it because it will maintain a great quality of life for much longer than if I didn't work out. I want to be able to enjoy the physical activities and travel later that I can't enjoy now because of having children to raise.

I did seriously consider getting implants recently. I just wanted to fill up the skin enough to make up for the sag that pregnancy has rendered. But then husband started getting all excited about me getting huge breasts and that just ruined it for me. That's not my personality or the image I want to portray. I've decided to live with my saggy breasts and accept that this is natural for someone who has had 4 children. Why fight it? Why try to be something I'm not?

And yes, I understand this is an individual choice. I don't fault anyone who chooses differently than I do. But wouldn't we eliminate so much stress from our lives as women if we didn't worry so much about such things? I bet we wouldn't if we lived in a matriarchal society.

I've even thought about how working out really isn't natural either. But unfortunately we don't live in the same society of old that provided for the physical labor that once kept people thin and in shape. So we try to re create was once natural in the gym. I figure there isn't much of an alternative unless I want to be a frail old crone in the future. I choose to be a strong old crone. No one better mess with me! LOL!

I struggle with the tanning issue because I know it's bad for my skin. But I like how it looks. I guess I've been brain washed. I've only done it for a short while but have recently decided to stop it. Once again , I feel I'm buying into someone elses notion of what I should look like. Well forget that! I'm not of mediterranean decent or other tan or darker ethnicity. I'm just plain old vanilla and I better learn to love it! LOL!

Well those are all my ramblings and opinions on such matters right now. No bashing here. Just wanted to express my thoughts!

Blaithin

 

[wend]

So good to hear, Blaithin! It IS hard to learn to love ourselves, "imperfections" and all. But it sure is worth the effort and compassion that it takes.

Again, I really didn't want to squish anyone's toes, but I felt I needed to say what I did. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings or imply that I think less of anyone who chooses plastic surgery (about which, in fact, I know plenty). I'm 36 and have been around the block a few times, been in more than a few hospitals, and know more than a few folks in the medical professions (some of whom are family members). And I'm fairly well informed, particularly about breast reconstruction and enlargement, since I was considering a reconstruction and possibly implants for myself. My own decision is to continue to fill out my loose breast skin with muscle. I don't want scars (I don't think Frankenboobies is a good look for me), I don't want to risk losing sensation in my nipples (which have already lost too much after six years of nursing), and I don't want to risk, when lean, clearly having a foreign object under my skin (as I said, there's no way I'd elect to have them cut my muscle...I love using it too much).

I want to be able to stretch in the gym without attracting more attention than I already do. I also decided that I don't want the hassle that comes from having large breasts. Let's be honest. Faced with a large-breasted woman, most men become idiots. I remember saying to a "gentleman" in a bar once, "They won't ANSWER you..." as I tried to bring his gaze up to my face.

I've also decided that to beautify my naked breasts (after all, I DO want my HUSBAND's attention), I'm going to have my nipples pierced, instead (a look MY husband finds sexy, and since I do too, why not?). Some would say that this is crazy, I know. Not quite as risky as plastic surgery, but certainly painful and unnecessary. (He actually already seems to like my deflated balloons plenty.)

Ms. Bevery Hills, you're right, that a car crash can end your life in the gym (well, it can end your life, period). That's why we wear seatbelts and try to drive sober and sanely, and keep an eye out for those who don't. All I'm saying about plastic surgery is that we ought to use the same caution. The current obsession with the breast (which a Houma man once told me he was sure was because most American men weren't breast fed...which he said also explained their desire to suck on beer bottles) IS like the earlier obsession with wasp-waitsted women (which, btw, led some women to have ribs removed). And it's a damned shame.

Saddlebags, I hope that you research your doctor well if you do decide to go through with the lyposuction. Some of those folk get a little carried away and end up doing nerve or blood-vessel damage. (I'd also research Yohimburn, which I've heard works for some people, or Xenadrine EFX, which I'm currently using in conjunction with intense HST training and a reasonable diet...I actually discovered this morning that the cellulite on the back of my thighs that has plagued me since I was 16, even when, at 24, I was my smallest...121 pounds and a size six!...is gone! I'm now 170 and a twelve, but with tight thighs...incredible what hard work and a little discipline can achieve, given time.)

Anyway, again, I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I certainly don't mean to be judgmental. I just gotta speak up now and then. I'm a writer and it's what I do.

 

[wend]

And BTW, Daisygirl, I hope you start taking a calcium supplement. My mother had to care for her mother-in-law during the last year of her life, as she slowly died from osteoporosis. Her spine was at a right angle, with seven broken vertebrae. Her son told me that her bones looked like lace on x-ray. She ended up more or less insane due to the pain-meds that were necessary to keep her in a state approaching comfort.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Have always taken a calcium supplement, since about age 16, along with many other vit/min supplements. I'm not that naive about my health.

 

[boscoe wilson]

"I want to be able to stretch in the gym without attracting more attention than I already do. I also decided that I don't want the hassle that comes from having large breasts. Let's be honest. Faced with a large-breasted woman, most men become idiots. I remember saying to a "gentleman" in a bar once, "They won't ANSWER you..." as I tried to bring his gaze up to my face. "

I think its great that you are so open with your opinions, but just because you've decided implants aren't right for you, why the negativity towards others who feel differently? I personally want the biggest boobs on the block and I don't care who wants to look, and no I'm not single...happily married.

 

[wend]

(Very glad to hear it, Daisy Girl.)

Boscoe, I'm not being negative towards anyone who feels differently. That's only your perception. I'm just stating my opinion as another option for those people who may be wondering if they're allowed to feel okay about their less-than-large-and-round breasts. There seem to be plenty of people who feel that bigger is better. I'm not sure why you're so defensive about MY feeling differently.

 

[boscoe wilson]

I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm just very excited about my new friends. I feel the same way about men who like to stare too long. I'm the biggest bitch to men when I go out. I've been called a bitch more times than I can count. I think the implants may help me get over that a little. Does that make sense? I mean, thats not why I'm getting them, but they will help me get over the "what the fuck are you looking at" syndrome. At first I'm probably gonna hate that shit, but with some time you never know.

 

[wend]

Whatever works for you, Boscoe. I hope the procedure goes well (or have you already had it done?) If so, may your recovery be quick!

 

[boscoe wilson]

I won't have the procedure until Feb. 26th. But thank you.

 

[Blaithin]

What do you all think though about how PS helps or hinders women as a whole? Do you think that having these surgeries, (lipo, breasts, etc.) keeps us from being taken seriously for our intelligence, talents, etc.? Are we just fighting getting old? You know there was a time when advanced age was associated with wisdom and was honored. Older women were considered powerful. Women in general were honored for their fertility and ability to give life. Women were considered different yet equal in ancient societies. They say we are equal now but we're only as equal as the patriarchy allows us. We're still in reality all playing games. Men became threatened at some point and have for centuries discouraged us from being who we really are. And encouraged us to fulfill the perfect image of their plaything. CONTROL!

Women come in all shapes and sizes even the fit ones. Can't we be left alone to be accepted as beautiful in our own right? I was very put off recently by a conversation on the chat board about fat women. And, NO, I'm not fat. It became a very sexist and degrading chat about fat women and what they could or couldn't do sexually and the like. I thought how shallow that these men couldn't realize that a fat woman could be just as sexual and fullfilled as a thin woman. Fortunately there are more positive than negative conversations around here or that would have been enough for me never to come back.

So anyway, just some more thoughts of mine. I love my man. I'm not a femi nazi. I just find it very hard to stomach what many women do to themselves physically and emotionally to please them whether they realize that's what they are doing or not.

 

[jenscats5]

I find this thread very interesting.

I agree with the point that plastic surgery isn't something to be taken lightly and getting it may not solve what it is trying to solve. But, after research and consultations if someone wants to get it done why not? What's right for one lady will be wrong for another and so the world turns.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone was accepted for who they are instead of what they look like? It seems every decade or so, that "look" changes and you just can't keep up with it! I used to try but can't be bothered anymore. The older I've gotten (34 now) the less I care about what others think. I want to look good & be healthy of course.

I think too that the "evil women" and "fat women" threads on C&C are just the men posturing cuz they KNOW they can't have that conversation in person. I mean, they can (with the anominity (sp?) the internet provides) let loose with all kinds of BS conversations. They may in reality not feel that way, but when the testosterone gets pumping..... hehe

 

[jenscats5]

All right, now I'm really going to go out on a limb......

I was never going to post this here cuz I am serious about my exercise & lifting and was afraid I'd be labelled as a "cheater" of sorts if I said anything, but with the other ladies considering it, I may be able to help.

I had liposuction last Feb and again in September.

If anyone has questions as to what to expect or whatever, feel free to ask. It's a tough surgery and there is a recovery time of several months.

In a way I think that the fact that plastic surgery exists at all and has become an art form makes it ok. I had it done cuz I was killing myself in the gym with exercise & diet and my abs & saddlebags had excess fat due to heredity and it wasn't going away in these pockets.....now I look more proportional but my body has not become a different shape....I still am the same shape but smaller......now the rest is up to me.

Plastic surgery is an art form and a good PS makes the difference in how you'll look afterwards.

 

[majutsu]

2 or 3 times in this thread (which is real interesting btw) people have mentioned that bodybuilding (particularly the use of aas) is analagous to plastic surgery. Particularly regarding aas, I find this misleading. It may seem analagous, but there is a simple situation that shows the difference: There is plastic surgery for bodybuilding. A man can go to a plastic surgeon and get Synthol injects to temporarily make his pecs look bigger, or even get mucle implants. Of course, you can't really bench any more weight, but it looks like you could, and that's the difference. Furthermore, they can carve fake definition lines on your abs, of course, but you don't really have reduced subcutaneous abdominal fat, but from a distance it looks like you might. AAS are performance enhancing drugs; successful use with hard work leads to an enhanced performance, a physiological difference that is functional and real, such as increased lean body mass or reduced fat. Since physiologically meaningful sides, such as increased cholesterol, can be controlled with diet, supplements, and judicious aas choice, and reduced body fat or increased lean mass have been repeatedly shown to be life prolonging and disease preventing, therefore bodybuilding increases your health in clearly measurable ways. If the same guy gets liposuction, muscle implants and laser sketched abs instead of working out, he is as unhealthy as ever, a mere empty picture. To wear a mask like this, a fraud facade, and be happy about it, would indicate a very insecure and psychological troubled person. As for tanning, most amateurs and pros use harmless dyes except for a modest non-injurious base. And no real bodybuilder can maximize their gains on a deficient diet?!?

Plastic surgery is a fraud, an empty visual effect. If the same women, instead of liposuction, breast jobs, and face tucks, concentrated on diet and excercise, they could achieve a beautiful aesthetic effect and have improved cardiac function, immune response, and improved lean muscle mass to assist through the frailities of old age. And don't forget, fake boobs are artwork, like tattoos, they are made for that body at that time. Ever seen your grandma's tattoo, or your old aunt's fake boobs from the late seventies' Think about it, but not too hard, trust me, it's a mental image not easily cro-barred out of your head. The horror! The horror!

 

[jenscats5]

Well, Maj, I could agree with you about PS being a fraud if the person who was getting surgery did not exercise or eat right and got the PS just to "look good." However with improper diet & exercise, the lipo will make no difference within a year as the person who got it will go back to looking the way they did B4.

Now if you have another person who is diligent about diet & exercise, does so regularly & eats right but due to heredity has pockets of excess fat that cannot be eliminated with diet & exercise alone, lipo could be an option for them. Yes, it enhances their look. However it's not fraudulent cuz they are putting in the time at the gym. Not everyone can get rid of large fat pockets with diet & exercise alone.

 

[wend]

Jens, I know you've worked hard , and if you felt the need to have liposuction and are happy with it, then it's the right thing for you! I just thank the DNA gods that it doesn't seem to be necessary for me. (And I'm thankful that your procedure went well and had no ill effects...as I'm sure you are, too!)

Blaithin, I think on the whole that plastic surgery as a quick fix is a bad thing for women. I've seen so many celebrities get their lips done, and it just looks like shit. Then there's Lauren Hutton, who is now 60 and is staunchly against it. Instead, she's living a fulfilling, healthy, active, adventurous life that's keeping her young...she looks incredible.

I knew a young woman (who has since suicided) whose father gave her a nose job for her sixteenth birthday. It left a scar on both her nose and her psyche (though not as deep a one as the incest, which is what impelled her suicide).

And while I'm glad that there are some really good plastic surgeons so that those who need reconstruction can get it, I think most of them are seriously unethical (and from the looks of the scars that I've seen on breasts and noses and lips, pretty unskilled as well). I think that many women are not well informed of the risks involved. And more importantly, it's the only medical profession which, through advertising, creates its own market. I think that's unconscionable: to put advertisments in women's magazines with airbrushed images of the "perfect" body so that we human women can feel badly about our own and run in and have something cut out or stuffed in.

Majutsu, while your language may be a little strong, I think you've got a point. There IS a world of difference between AS use and plastic surgery. Both ARE risky, but the former requires real work, and can create beautiful, lasting, healthy results. (I've got to object to the tattoo analogy, though...if you keep your body fit, tattoos will look sexy at any age!)

 

[jenscats5]

Wend, I agree with you on the "quick fix" part....as part of my recovery I joined a PS recovery site but it seems most of the people were looking for a quick fix. They have a exercise forum & these people get on my nerves! They don't want to put in the time or effort to exercise or eat right which irritates me to no end. I put in the time & effort but my genetics were against me. I researched PS, got consultations, checked my dr's license his educations, etc. I also think those "airbrushed" pics are unrealistic. Plastic surgery won't make you look like that or rarely will. The pressure for women to look a certain way in society is a shame and if they feel surgery is necessary then that is also a shame. I used it to assist me in my goals but know very well that it's not permanent unless I take responsibility & eat right & exercise. My dr. was very good at telling me I won't look like the airbrushed or celebrity pics -- he stressed the risks & reality & he was right.

I hope that anyone who considers PS realizes it for what it is & takes all the complications & risks into consideration. There ARE a lot of dr's in it just for the money and don't take the patient into the proper consideration.

 

[Blaithin]

I had sort of forgotten about Lauren Hutton. And I agree that she is a wonderful role model for women and an example of aging gracefully. She is active, healthy, and living life on her own terms.

She has had some rough times though. Had a boyfriend/manager that ripped her off for years. She basically had to find ways to remake her fortune long after her bloom had faded. Then not all that long ago she had a terrible motorcycle accident. She had some very serious injuries but was able to come back and recover. Remarkable woman!

Think about Martha Stewart for a moment. She was once a model also and I believe has aged gracefully. I know many have a negative image of her and her projects are a bit frou frou and complicated. But truth be known she has accomplished quite a bit. She is known to be a bitch, but would a man in her position be thought of negatively or would he be thought of as a shrewd and assertive businessman? Would a man be in as much hot water right now? I don't think those Enron guys have been smeared as much. I think this is a woman who in the eyes of many has gotten a little too big for her breeches. I think this a woman living on her own terms being made an example of.

I know that's a bit off the topic of breasts but just look at what happens sometimes when a woman doesn't live up to what is expected.

 

[wend]

It IS off topic, but not really, as you say. I guess that's what I was trying to say in the first post: that we all should examine how the expectations of others dictate how we live our lives (and remake our bodies).