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kickboxer195

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Been in bjj/sombo the past couple months, and I'm getting hit with SO MANY of different submissions/escapes that I'm getting confused. Let me give my background and experience so you all can answer my question.........

I've sparred a few of our mma guys and done pretty well while standing. I have a real good sprawl, and a real good clinch, so I've gotten away with those 2 alone pretty well. I've been in stand up for a LONG ass time, competing boxing, Muay Thai, and leg kick rules. I have some HS and JO wrestling, but not enough to say I"m proficeint on the ground.

Now my question is 'what' should be the basic moves I should concentrate on initially. I DON'T want to be that guy that wants to strike, then just 'ties-up' on the ground when taken down. I'd like to be very proficeint on the ground, but I'm a BIG believer in doing a FEW moves EXCELLENT rather than a lot of moves good.

I'm doing well in helicoptor arm bars, triangles, and real good at heel hooks. Not so hot at sweeps or escapes right now. I'm not too bad fighting off my back, but my mount is weak if I can't punch (just submission sparring).
 
Lock flow drill.

Drill any move 100 times. So much thats its boring. Take TIME. Lotz and lotz of time.

Learn move, drill um. Roll. Take chances when you roll don't be afraid to tap, it's practice.
 
Believe me, when I roll I just try to do stupid shit to see if I can get it.........the first thing I learned about submissions is to not try to be 'too' technical on them....I was trying to do the EXACT moves I learned, EXACTLY the way I learned them.

Is there any moves I should be concentrating on???? Meaning, if you had only 3-4 moves to learn and use soley, what would they be?
 
it kind of depends on yoru bodytype
I mean my idea is try all the submissions you are shown, and focus onthe ones you pick up quickly
 
If you want to still fight while training. I would concentrate on escapes and not getting caught in subs and getting back up.

I'm kind of the same style. My first MMA fight I won with a sub though, but after I leg kicked the guy so much he could barely walk. I always say I am only a white belt in bjj, but my rank goes up the more I beat on my opponent lol.
 
Well , how about this for a Focus ?

1 Go Berhind Move

1 Leg Sub

1 Choke

1 Arm Sub from Front

1 Arm Sub from Rear

Armbar

Triangle

Now , notice I didnt say "Top" , and "Bottom" like usu . Be able to do SOMETHING - ONE thing PERFECTLY from each position of Opportunity . If the arm is there , be able to take it - backwards or Forward . If the Neck is there , take it , Guillotine and RNC perhaps , along with a Decent Side Control Choke . IF you need a Goal of this type , why not make it the ability to have a reliable way to Tap a guy from any Given Relational Position ?

IF you start associating Subs with their Positioning and less with each other in the general Category of "Subs" your Mind will be less cluttered about it , and that will free you up to flow more easily .

ALWAYS be thinking - How can I end this RIGHT now ! This will make you a FAR more Dangerous man than someone that has to Transition through 3-4 Positions to get to his "Go To Move" . Have a "Go To Move" for ALL Occasions !
 
actually djimbe, that makes the most sense out of everything I learned in classes........never thought of it that way. Maybe learn 2 subs proficeintly in each position.


Demoix, that is my plan to leg kick the hell out of them, but I want to be good on the ground so I have no worrys about being on my back.
 
I was thinking of something smilar actually
2 subs from each possition
then if I become 'masterful' with them add subs fromt here for options
 
Focus on posture at first. It's BJJ's equivalent to Kickboxing's footwork. Most attacks require good posture and good posture simultaneously creates submission defense.
 
First thing you should work for is maintaining a dominant/favorable position. Work things like guard passing as well. You can know all the submissions in the world but you will not be able to apply them if you are constantly mounted or stuck inside someone's guard.

Good luck man! :)
 
ya man just learn those subs, and remember position before submission and pretty soon you'll develope your own style. after 9 months, i just sort of gotten used to what i can and i cant do with my body type and now my style is fighting alot off my back- triangles, omoplatas, armbars, sweeps etc and u develope a sub u really start leaning towards (for me its triangles). tho that doesnt mean u wont be able to fight from other positions, but rather, youd just develope a favored one- this is the beauty of bjj: everyones unique.
 
I look at bjj and mmabjj different even though they are the same. For example at when grappling only I love having someone in my guard, I feel safe and can usually get a submission pretty easily, however when we train mma I do not enjoy having someone in my guard because of the intense training that all mma guys are doing in relation to throwing elbows from the guard. Now when I get rocked sparring I will pull guard and hold on just to recover, but my ultimate goal in fighting is to get side mount and pin a shoulder with my knee I then drop elbows and that will either end the fight or loosen my opponent up and I will take the arm bar for a submission. As for the question asked I would do as the guys are saying, learn a submission, drill that submission, and then when you grapple tell your partner I am going for heel hooks all night, that way he knows whats coming thus making it harder for you. When you can heel hook an opponent when they know its coming then you are ready to move on to another submission. Someone earlier made the most valid point of bjj....DO NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT TAPPING....its just part of it. Teammates wont judge you for tapping because they understand its practice. I get tapped all the time, I also have been choked to sleep for not tapping.....it was great.
 
rfowler that is a good post I like it a lot : o )
the only thing about possition before submission, I agree with it, but it's not suitable for every situation
I am fairly dangerous when someone is on my back
if I go to get out of that possition sometimes I wind up in thier closed guard, where I am actually less dangerous
for straight sub hunting
P b4 S is probubly more important in MMA where strikes are involved
 
Kane Fan said:
you can sub someone from open guard
Click to expand...

Hell yah! It's far easier to barrage someone with subs from open guard. In open guard you have more hip mobility than closed guard. With open guard you can set up far more sweeps also. Closed guard is generally a defensive posture used to keep someone from rising and pounding you with strikes.
 
I'm a fairly large guy (6'3", 240#) with a muscular build. I have found it very easy to submit bug guys like me as they have so much mass in the shoulders/neck/chest that chokes come real easy. Now little skinny guys are a lot more difficult for me to finish as they can squirm around more and I have less to squeeze.

Obviously from a power standpoint I can dominate them, usually picking them up for a slam or just bench pressing them off me. When in practice I try to use skill over power so that I can really learn the subs. We specialize in no-gi BJJ specifically for MMA. This helps also as we don't get used to grabbing collars and sleeves, but on sweaty bodies. A lot of the techniques we learn I just mentally pass on them as it's too difficult to move my long limbs to make the move happen. Other skills we learn are better adapted to my body type and I ambrace those and drill them.

We have different instructors at my school and different teachers may be more suitable to your style. I have noticed that Eddie Bravo is tremendous at techincal BJJ and is very flexible and lean - he can pull stuff off that I could only dream about. Bas Rutten on the other hand has simplified some of the moves to make them more suitable for a MMA competition where getting a quick sub is more important than setting it up with positioning.

As others have said - you need to learn a few basic moves in various positions and learn them well. The more you train the more you will pick up.

Good luck.
 
I have come a long way since that first post...............I TOTALLY agree with 1392477, there are some moves I look at and think 'they look pretty, but ain't no way I'm doing that' (bravo choke being one of them).

Now I just pick the moves that I like, and drill the hell out of them. And I could give a shit less about getting tapped, so I'll try some crazy shit out in practice just for the hell of it.
 
1392477 I am in your boat with size and "beef" and this is definitely a plus and minus for us, of course the strenght differential is great in fights and practice but more importantly I learned from my instructor to use my larger than normal delts as a submission especially in fights. When you are more muscular than your opponent you can tap people by smothering their face and nose with your delts/ and or sweaty bis. Theres nothing worst than being gassed and getting a moutful of some big bastards delts when hes in your half guard. When tired shoulder pressure is essential, I use it all the time but in later rounds pressure can mimick submissions, when your opponent is breathing heavy by covering their mouth and nose with your bis, delts, or rash guard makes them feel smothered, and this can end a fight. So I totally understand where you coming from when you talk about being larger. When sparring, fighting, or grappling smaller quicker guys I am with you I try to use more skill especially is practice.Practice in my opinion is where bjj and mmabjj seperate. In bjj you practice like you compete for tournaments etc, but in mmabjj I go into practice expecting to get tapped because thats where i take my chances because again its practice. If someone one your team has to much pride to be tapped then I question there ability to get better. When we train mmabjj punches are constantly being thrown, not hard enough to hurt but theres enough on them to get your opponent to move, this is when the new guys realize whether or not mma is for them or if they want to just grapple, not that theres anything wrong with that I say in all honesty I would rather right for 15 minutes than straight grapple, 15 minutes of grappling is bruttle, I got nothing but love for straight jiu jitsu guys, my worst injuries have come more from grappling than from a fight anyday.
 
Jacob Creutzfeldt said:
Hell yah! It's far easier to barrage someone with subs from open guard. In open guard you have more hip mobility than closed guard. With open guard you can set up far more sweeps also. Closed guard is generally a defensive posture used to keep someone from rising and pounding you with strikes.
Click to expand...

well that to
but I ment you can sub someone from inside of thier open guard
 
well bigger guys are easie rto girp to a point
when they are past that point tho it's hard to lock moves in
like guys can only do a true triangle on me if they have long legs
otherwise they have to go for a striaght leg triangle
 
Kane Fan said:
well that to
but I ment you can sub someone from inside of thier open guard
Click to expand...

It's virtually impossible. How do you do it? I've never been subbed by someone in my open guard. Realistically you have to pass any guard to effectively sub except for some kind of leg lock. Falling back into a leg lock might work on a beginner or someone very tired, but usually it's a recipe for getting mounted.

It's easier to sub a guy out of closed guard with a collar choke, sleeve choke, or can opener.
 
One thing to remember is you don't have to sit in the guard. Posture up, break guard and just stand up, its that simple. Some guys forget about this, they get in the just start to get into the grappling game. People always say, "wow look at Chuck, he just gets up and breaks away from takedowns" Ya I know we are not Chuck, but its the mentallity. You get on top and in guard, don't think about passing or what to do next, just focus on getting up and getting away.

Just keep rolling and watch guys that are good at escapes. Get used to pulling away when a guy gets a hold or gets grabby.

As far as subs to learn, I would go with high percentage ones like gullotine, kimura, rear naked choke.
 
Jacob Creutzfeldt said:
It's virtually impossible. How do you do it? I've never been subbed by someone in my open guard. Realistically you have to pass any guard to effectively sub except for some kind of leg lock. Falling back into a leg lock might work on a beginner or someone very tired, but usually it's a recipe for getting mounted.

It's easier to sub a guy out of closed guard with a collar choke, sleeve choke, or can opener.
Click to expand...

you can fall back for an ankle which someone I train with does from time to time but I'll usually turn for a different kind of ankle lock
I'm sorry I don't have a name for it but I can describe it
lets say your in open guard and you turn to your left to go after thier right leg
your right arm goes down over thier shin/ankle area (low on the shin kinda) and your left hand goes to the top of thier foot, your right hand on your left forearm (similar to KeyLock)
usually this dosn't just present itself you kinda have to force the situation with posture in thier guard with one foot up sort of will make it easier
but if they go after your foot when you post then of course you can't do it
there are a lot of ways to stop it, but the same is true of any submission really
oh and I nearly choked a guy to a tap from a shirt choke
but of course you couldn't do that in NOGI/Mixed enviorment
 
well, Guillotine isn't really a high percentage sub with skillfull opponents from what I have seen
usually you just wind up with them in yoru guard, but if you have a good guard it's no loss
as to standing up to break guard, sure if your in a start from the feet grappling tournament or match, but a lot of times you start on your knees, to me it's bad form to stand up at any point in a match that didn't start from the feet
 
Kane Fan said:
you can fall back for an ankle which someone I train with does from time to time but I'll usually turn for a different kind of ankle lock
I'm sorry I don't have a name for it but I can describe it
lets say your in open guard and you turn to your left to go after thier right leg
your right arm goes down over thier shin/ankle area (low on the shin kinda) and your left hand goes to the top of thier foot, your right hand on your left forearm (similar to KeyLock)
usually this dosn't just present itself you kinda have to force the situation with posture in thier guard with one foot up sort of will make it easier
but if they go after your foot when you post then of course you can't do it
there are a lot of ways to stop it, but the same is true of any submission really
oh and I nearly choked a guy to a tap from a shirt choke
but of course you couldn't do that in NOGI/Mixed enviorment
Click to expand...

Are you describing a toehold? You can pull that off on someone with a sloppy open guard, but most open guard players are going to use their feet as hooks curling around the back or your legs or in your crotch or put it tight on your hip. There isn't any space to grab a foot as they keep their feet snugged against you.

Here's a clip of a leg lock during a guard pass. Take note of Jean Jacques leg position when he applies the kneebar. You and I went back and forth in an old thread here where I tried to describe how you can place your shin in the hip of the guy you are kneebarring to make it far tighter. Jean Jacques does it in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch v=S6PXdmspbpk&mode=related&search=
 
well thanks for the video
but I told you you don't do it straight from kneeling in his open guard
you have to post to open his open guard a bit more then turn
 
Work the butterfly guard more if you wants to sweep off your back. Personally Im a strong thick powerful guy and I try my best to control all action on the ground and avoid being put on my back @ all costs. My most proficient subs come from side control and every now and again Ill spin for a heel hook or a toe hold.
 
sounds like me
I'm really not good at all in Mount, I like Side Control
I don't even care to go for Mount unless the person is too worn out to have a good bump
and even then what usually happens is when they go to roll me I use the momentum to wind up with them in my guard but my guard moving towards a sub attempt
even tho my offensive guardwork is crap
 
From a BJJ and submission wrestling point of view, I think side mount is better than full mount. You have more mobility for transitions, at least as many submissions, and it's much harder for the bottom guy to roll you. The mount is more MMA oriented as you can really wind up and land full force strikes.
 
I guess I am the minority but I love to pull guard. I am constantly looking for armbars when someone is in my guard. I have confidence in my blocking guard in mma and my hips are quick enough to catch the armbar. I guess its because the armbar was the first submission that just clicked in my head but it is my old faithful. I feel most comfortable when I pull guard. Side mount for me is all about elbows, extended arm bars, keylocks, etc, but mostly ground and pound. I am a huge fan of pinning a shoulder, pounding the face with bows, then just when they hate their life taking the armbar, btw when someone gets side mount on me I am crap.
 
yes I'm iffy in bottom of sidemount as well
my first click submission was the side choke
I"m ok with someone in my guard for grappling but would not enjoy it for mixed
 
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