Bicep Curls don't help your biceps

[Synpax]

Must be so. Nelson Montana said so right here:

"Article 4. Working Your Biceps To Their Fullest - The secret formula for loaded guns!

Everyone knows the appeal of the bicep muscle and its importance to one's overall appearance. Instead, let's get right to the point: Biceps training is probably the simplest form of all bodybuilding exercise, yet thousands of bodybuilders fail to stimulate bicep growth with ample success. There's a reason for that. There's also a solution. If you never seem to get a good bicep pump and would like to rectify the situation, get this. The standard bicep curl doesn't directly affect the bicep -- at least that's the case with most people. The Bodybuilding Truth explains how to pump the biceps so hard you'll feel it all week."

So. My bicep routine consists of ez-bar curls, concentration curls, and cable rows with a broad bar.

Any thoughts?

 

[Bulldog_10]

He just means that when doing curls (esp. with the E-Z bar) you're not isolating the bis. You're also working the brachialis and brachioradialis.

It's true, but there really is no way to isolate the bis...you're always working all three of those muscles when doing elbow flexion movements...but there is a way to make the bis the primary mover...don't know if it's in nelson's book, so I don't wanna give away the ending.

 

[bran987]

actually the first day I came to EF I bought that book.. the way he recommends to do biceps has helped me a lot.. dunno if I'm allowed to talk about it or not though

 

[Bulldog_10]

actually the first day I came to EF I bought that book.. the way he recommends to do biceps has helped me a lot.. dunno if I'm allowed to talk about it or not though

Check your karma...

 

[Synpax]

What do you mean curls don't directly affect the bicep? Of course they work many muscles (and you left out aconeous and possibly a few others).

I am not shelling out for what I can ask here. Or what I already know.

I do know that the concentration curls hit the biceps and only biceps. I think cable work does too (recall reading an article 'written' by Ronnie Coleman saying that).

 

[cwick0]

Just as many other exercises you have to tweak things to your advantage. That is why you over turn the db at the top of the bicep db curl.

 

[Bulldog_10]

What do you mean curls don't directly affect the bicep? Of course they work many muscles (and you left out aconeous and possibly a few others).

I am not shelling out for what I can ask here. Or what I already know.

I do know that the concentration curls hit the biceps and only biceps. I think cable work does too (recall reading an article 'written' by Ronnie Coleman saying that).

Anconeus is a elbow extensor...so it doesn't get worked during curls at all. The only other small muscles that could assist in flexion are the wrist and finger flexors/extensors...because they originate on the humeral epicondyles.

Any elbow flexion exercise works all elbow flexors (even concentration curls).


BTW...check YOUR karma too.

 

[Synpax]

Ok, thanks. I will probably take a picture at the gym tomorrow and send it to you, cause the description is hard for me to be sure about. I am also doubtful I can do as you describe with the eZ.

BTW - that just put me at 600 karma and I got another dot. I'm well ahead now of all I lost when the board switched.

 

[zxe003]

actually the first day I came to EF I bought that book.. the way he recommends to do biceps has helped me a lot.. dunno if I'm allowed to talk about it or not though

I actually got the book my first day as well. What Montana says about the biceps actually makes a lot of sense. And his reccomedation for working them actually jacked my arms up pretty good for the first couple times I implemented it.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I actually got the book my first day as well. What Montana says about the biceps actually makes a lot of sense. And his reccomedation for working them actually jacked my arms up pretty good for the first couple times I implemented it.

It's a good idea, anyone who knows physiology knows all kinds of tricks like this. But don't go overboard, your brachialii and brachioradialii still need to be worked...don't ignore them just because you want to build the biceps.

 

[CLOMIDCLOWN]

SO what does he actually say?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Yeah, I feel left out here now. If I wasn't in a financial pit right now I'd go buy the book, but I need the money to get my car fixed. Blah, what could possibly be different?

 

[wnt2bBeast]

It's a good idea, anyone who knows physiology knows all kinds of tricks like this. But don't go overboard, your brachialii and brachioradialii still need to be worked...don't ignore them just because you want to build the biceps.

Whats the answer here..I have nelson's ebook too but dont feel like sifting through it for the answer..I get a great pump in my bi's but i've been questioning the whole curl thing and looking for ways to stay really really strict with the elbows at my side and only curling up a little above my nipples rather than try to bring the bar up to ur chin we i think takes stress of the bi's and puts it on ur front delts..

 

[chewyxrage]

Bulldog 10 you have obviously have the your "own" knowledge, not just nelson's.

If you know the answer then share it, just because nelson published it doesn't mean you can't tell other people.



I know nelson recommends keeping the pinky above the thumb on EZ bar curls (widest grip will do this) and DB curls

 

[super_rice]

gironda (spelling?) "perfect" curl...



i dunno always does it for me.

drag curls too maybe?

meh, who gives a damn about biceps anyway? it's all about the legs :

 

[Bulldog_10]

Yeah...rice is on the money...using a straight bar puts the bis in a optimal position to be the prime mover during elbow flexion. I believe Nelson says to put the pinkies higher than the thumbs...but that's not necessary IMO.

The reason for this is that the biceps inserts on the radius, not the ulna (like the brachialis)...and the radius rotates around the ulna during pronation/supination of the forearm.

So when the forearm is supinated, the biceps is lengthened, which means that it is in good position for strong contraction...Sort of like how the gastrocnemius is the prime ankle entensor only when the knees are extended (and the soleus takes over when the knees are in flexion).

So using the straight bar is better for the bis...but don't neglect the brachialis. If you want to do this, make sure you're hitting hammer curls as well if you want total arm development.

 

[CLOMIDCLOWN]

what does it mean to put pinkies higher than thumbs on a strait bar?

 

[Bulldog_10]

what does it mean to put pinkies higher than thumbs on a strait bar?

You can't. I said that NELSON says to put the pinkies higher than the thumbs, I say to just use a straight bar.

On an e-z curl bar, you can just use the widest grip and it puts your hands in a position where your pinkies are higher than the thumbs (awkward).

 

[chewyxrage]

I find using the wide grip (with pinkies up above thumbs) it makes my former stricter (it's harder to swing or use the back when struggling)

 

[CLOMIDCLOWN]

thanks.

 

[Forge]

I've always preferred using dumbells myself. Start the curl like a hammer curl, but halfway up twist into a normal curl, at the top you want to try to touch the inside plate to your chest. Hold at the top for a second or two and squeeze, then slowly lower the dumbell down, after the halfway point twist back into a hammer curl start.

I honestly don't do alot of bicep work, but this destroys my biceps every time.

 

[BOOEY]

I can't use a straight bar, it puts way to much pressure on my forearms and I consider my forearms to be pretty strong. I think as long as you're using strict form (no swinging, no momentum, no bending of the legs or back) and you fully contract the muscle, you'll get the gains.

 

[JKurz1]

I've noticed that if I use a monkey grip (no thumb), I have no wrist pain........yes, I do have to go lighter, but concentrating on form is the key..........what's your reccomendation B-Dog?

 

[Bulldog_10]

I've noticed that if I use a monkey grip (no thumb), I have no wrist pain........yes, I do have to go lighter, but concentrating on form is the key..........what's your reccomendation B-Dog?

Yep...the open grip alleviates the pain in the wrists somewhat. I, personally, don't do much work directly on my bis...but if I was to do the traditional arm exercise I'd use the straight bar, then do hammers...then maybe do a set with the E-Z bar with strict form (like you said) to finish off everything (bis and brachialis).

 

[JKurz1]

Yep...the open grip alleviates the pain in the wrists somewhat. I, personally, don't do much work directly on my bis...but if I was to do the traditional arm exercise I'd use the straight bar, then do hammers...then maybe do a set with the E-Z bar with strict form (like you said) to finish off everything (bis and brachialis).

YUP YUP....I'll go heavy for 3 sets on st8 bar, then finish with a strip set leaving 65lbs+ on the bar.....use that weight to do reverse curls...........kills the brachi.......

 

[Synpax]

Hey -

I took some pics at the gym today with my phone. Tell me what you mean cause' I don't know jack about this supination the radial ulna, etc.

Here I am with the EZ bar and the grip I usually use:

And here I am with what I think you are saying to do with the straight bar (putting my hands outward rather than inward:

How can I modify this so the bi is the principle muscle getting worked? This is the anchor of my 5x5 for bicep group and I follow with wide cable rows and db concentration curls on a preacher stand.

 

[Bulldog_10]

You see how your hands are in that first pic? Just use the next grip out further...so your pinkies are higher than your thumbs...in that pic your thumbs are higher than your pinkies. But you should still use an "underhand" grip.

get it?

 

[bran987]

Hey -

I took some pics at the gym today with my phone. Tell me what you mean cause' I don't know jack about this supination the radial ulna, etc.

Here I am with the EZ bar and the grip I usually use:

And here I am with what I think you are saying to do with the straight bar (putting my hands outward rather than inward:

How can I modify this so the bi is the principle muscle getting worked? This is the anchor of my 5x5 for bicep group and I follow with wide cable rows and db concentration curls on a preacher stand.

cool pics, you do a 5x5 even on small muscle groups?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

The 5x5 routine is designed as such, Bran. One 5x5 movement for all bodyparts (bis, tris, chest, back, legs) and 5x15 on calves (higher reps/volume because they're so stubborn).

 

[Synpax]

A 5x5 plus a 2x10 for each mucle group. I consider the muscle groups to be back, bis, tris, chest, shoulders, upper legs, and calves.

I also consider flexors/extensors and abs to be a group but use a different approach with them.

 

[Synpax]

Ok - I took a picture again today. How does this look?

 

[Bulldog_10]

That's the one! But that also puts your grip really wide, which is why the straight bar is better IMO...you can still use your favorite grip width.

But if you give that a try, that will really target the biceps...and you'll probably have to lower your weights a little bit if you're gonna work with that grip. From my experience this grip is a little harder.

 

[Synpax]

But that also puts your grip really wide, which is why the straight bar is better IMO

How can you do the straight bar so the pinky is above the thumb. The thumb and pinky seem to be about at the same level on a straight bar. Or the pinky is just slightly higher.

 

[Bulldog_10]

How can you do the straight bar so the pinky is above the thumb. The thumb and pinky seem to be about at the same level on a straight bar. Or the pinky is just slightly higher.

Sorry for the misunderstanding bro...the pinky won't be higher than the thumb on the straight bar. What I'm saying is that if they're even with each other, you'll get the same effect. So just doing curls with the straight bar as opposed to the E-Z curl bar really targets the bis.

 

[Synpax]

If I just flip the EZ, I can use the next rung in for grip with pinky dominance.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Don't focus on such minor details man. Curl. Progress. Grow.

 

[view]

Don't focus on such minor details man. Curl. Progress. Grow.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[chewyxrage]

Might as well "Curl. Progress. Grow" at the most efficient pace wouldn't you say?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I don't think it'll make enough of a difference to really matter. Besides, the brachialis and brachioradilias won't be emphasized as much, so something will be sacrificed either way.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I don't think it'll make enough of a difference to really matter. Besides, the brachialis and brachioradilias won't be emphasized as much, so something will be sacrificed either way.

Yeah...that's why I said to make sure you do hammers as well.

 

[Boss101]

The Straight Bar Curl is considered the king when it comes to building biceps mass. For some reason, it seems that the proponents of this exercise believe that a straight bar is the only thing that will hold enough weight to build the most size and strength. The rationale for the straight bar is the full supination of the biceps when one is used.

For one thing, I rarely see anyone doing heavy straight bar curls without cheating in some way. The use of leg thrust or back swing is common to this exercise. But forget the cheating. Assuming good form, the leverage imposed on the upright stance as the weight travels in its arc away from the body causes you to lean forward. This problem I remedied long ago by leaning my back against a wall with my feet out forward, using my bodyweight to keep my back against the wall. This counterbalances the weight.

Even when you get past body stabilization, this exercise has a flaw that makes biceps overload difficult. When you get to the top of the range of motion, the resistance is supported by your bone structure, and you can relax the biceps if you choose. At this peak in the exercise, I prefer to have a sizeable leverage disadvantage. Instead of resting, I want my biceps to be straining against a heavy resistance. The straight bar curl doesn't allow this at its peak position. Keeping your elbows at your sides may prevent total loss of the resistance. But you may find that extremely heavy resistance too difficult with this strict form. Most people however, raise their elbows up with deltoid assistance causing this total loss of resistance as far as the biceps is concerned.

In addressing the possible supination advantage the straight bar produces, you need to consider two things. First, if the biceps supinates the lower arm and hand, then an act of supination during the exercise would be of benefit. The straight bar doesn't cause an act of supination, the grip is already supinated. Even if you were to use dumbbells and start with palms down and supinate as you raise the weight, the act of supination is counterbalanced. If you truly want resisted supination, use a triceps rope on a cable curl. Only then would supination be fully resisted.

Second, raise your arms in front of you with palms down. Now rotate your hands to palms up. You will notice that without cranking your elbows and wrists, you cannot reach full straight bar supination. The supination produced by the straight bar is unnatural and excessive. A properly constructed EZ curl bar places your hands at the natural extreme of a supinated grip.

You can continue to listen to errant experts and fool yourself that the straight bar curl is the best exercise to build big biceps, or you can watch anyone else perform them and observe the inherent flaws that I have described. The next step is to look for an alternative that produces continuous tension and adequate leverage disadvantage, while allowing for an attainable optimal technique.

Overloading the biceps is the goal. The straight bar curl is too flawed by potential and inherent flaws to be the best at anything positive.

Link http://www.revised-training.com/straight_bar_curls.htm

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Hmm, it sounds good. How true it is though, I don't know.

 

[Synpax]

boss101 - I will continue to use EZ with the extreme pinky up as seen in my last picture. Thanks.

 

[Boss101]

Have you ever tried spider curls before? They have to be my favourite bicep exercise I feel constant tension on my bi's through the entire ROM.

http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/spidercurl.html

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Have you ever tried spider curls before? They have to be my favourite bicep exercise I feel constant tension on my bi's through the entire ROM.

http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/spidercurl.html

Looks interesting think i may give these a try next week for bi's..anyone else???/

 

[zxe003]

Looks interesting think i may give these a try next week for bi's..anyone else???/

I do them regularly. Read an article by Tom Prince a couple of years ago, and he suggested using these to maintain constant tension through the entire ROM. Works pretty well...the key is to not come up too high, because than you'll start to try to pull your body back which shifts the emphasis onto your anterior delts.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

I do them regularly. Read an article by Tom Prince a couple of years ago, and he suggested using these to maintain constant tension through the entire ROM. Works pretty well...the key is to not come up too high, because than you'll start to try to pull your body back which shifts the emphasis onto your anterior delts.

cool..do you do them as your main curling move or do you do an additional BB curl?

 

[zxe003]

I also do standing bb curls...mostly alternate between them. And to be honest, even though Boss101 has so thoroughly pointed out the straight bar curl's inefficiency, I still like to hit these with a really wide grip for some added variation.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

thanks bro!!!