Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
Believe in ghosts? Weird.
- Thread starter rsnoble-im-back
- Start date
needtogetas said:
I'm being honest, nugga......I like your wife......ALOT.
I'd split her six ways from sunday if she wasn't bound by marriage vows.
KA-BAR said:
Exactly, KA-BARABAR....
Mind over matter......if you don't mind, they don't matter. I think the ghosts become dissapointed when we ignore their childish behaviour.
spongebob said:
Spongebob, can you expound on the physical experiences you've had in your old house? Things moving in the other room? Please be specific. What moved? How did it move? What sounds did it make? How did you react? Why did you not go in the other room to confront the entity which made the sounds?
Please elaborate, Spongebob.
DIV
DIVISION said:
Dude - go on a ghost hunt or two yourself man...
There are tons of places listed all over the US and world...
http://www.theshadowlands.net/places/arizona.htm
besides, it woudl be awesome to hear your story if you did run into something
Old abandoned insane asylums are the best scare. I went to one in my hometown that was shut down in the '50s and on the top floor there were all these chains hanging on the walls, and bedsprings still in the rooms.
...It was getting dark, so we split. I would've rather stayed now that I think of it.
There's also a haunted theater near there I always heard stories about.
...It was getting dark, so we split. I would've rather stayed now that I think of it.
There's also a haunted theater near there I always heard stories about.
DIVISION said:
I want to have demons scare the shit out of me, not screw it out of me.
spongebob
New member
DIVISION said:
well mine seems tame compared to bigbairs, thats why he probably experienced demons whereas mine are just friendly spirits.
i try and remember some of it but it was like so common i quit paying alot of attention to it. may just be nothing for all i know. but i did hear things and i do feel a presence alot of times. one of those feelings that you know someone is right behind you if your sitting on the couch or you know someone is just in the room. ive always had that feeling. and you think you see something out of the corner of your eye. that happens alot especially in this new house. like i said the elderly lady died here in our bedroom. i new i would experience things when i found that out.
maybe its all an illusion, im not trying to convince myself or anyone, i can only say what i have experienced.
the old house things would move all the time. i quit responding to it like you said, why dont i go an investigate, because i did alot at first and got tired of getting up and looking only to find nothing. for example, my couch wasnt too far away from the kitchen, id be laying there watching tv and all of a sudden something in the dish drain would move. i wouldnt physically see it because my eyes would be on the tv. but it was clear as day as to what happened. maybe it was gravity, but it happened alot with the dishes.
another i use to get up alot for would be the pantry off of the kitchen, id hear a loud noise and wonder wtf, get up and go look and the only thing i could see was maybe something on the ground. was it there before i dont know.
this happened alot.
its something ive quit caring.
just like in this new house ive already kind of quit caring but to be honest i still have just a tad bit of nervousness until i know for sure it is friendly. then i will quit caring.
this morning i was sleeping on the couch, it was about 6am or so when i heard a very distinct noise. the noise that someone makes while getting up from the computer desk and accidentally hits the keyboard trey. everyone always hits it with thier knees while getting up and its noisey. well no one was in thier but i heard it plain as day.
then i fell back asleep and i was half awake i guess, so i hear this voice that said something, something like get up or be careful, im not sure now. but it sounded like it came from an older lady, i even had a fuzzy image in my head of her when i heard it. and i thought for sure it came from her as she was sitting right next to me on the couch. as soon as i fully opened my eyes and looked(i was really expecting to see someone) there was nothing there. and to be honest it scared me a little.
spongebob
New member
DIVISION said:Jesus, Robert.....
That's full-fledged haunting you got there.....
Good thing she seems nice.....
DIV
well i dont know, dreams can play tricks on ya. but it has been happening alot more recently. right before im fully awake i hear something only to wake up and no one else is either here or awake. who knows, but im not really on a hunt for ghost or dont care if thats what it really is. nothing i could do about it. except if the walls start bleeding and she says get out, motel 6 here i come.
Div - here is one for you -
Missouri -
Crocker - Cry Baby Hollow - Located off DD hwy. just outside Crocker, if you go there between 11:50P.M. and 12:20 A.M. you will see a flash of light like a door opening and hear a baby crying and screams, then hear the mother crying for her child , all the while there are sets of evil looking red eyes in various spots around you. It was rumored that the woman was pregnant and while on a hiking trip fell into a ravine and that by time her rescuers got to her that she was already dead. Also the same location is rumored to be a gateway to hell.(WARNING: most people who go there and are brave enough to stay through the whole experience have some kind of Vehicle trouble upon trying to exit the hollow.(I.E.) flat tires mysterious claw marks on the vehicle, and even wrecks!!!)
Michigan-
Ypsilanti - just off Denton road - At night you an drive down this road and see weird blue lights flashing all over the whole road. the more noise you make the more lights come out. And if you get out of the car or turn off the engine you can hear metal chains or pipes grinding and also hear groans and growls.
Missouri-
Desoto - OLD ST.LOUIS ROAD - OFF HIGHWAY 67 AND OLD CHARTER CHURCH RD. THERE IS A ROAD THAT IS CALLED OLD ST. LOUIS RD. THE STORY IS THAT IN THE 1800'S IT WAS USED TO GET TO ST. LOUIS FROM FARMINGTON. IN BETWEEN 1800 AND 1954 THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED. NOW THEY ALL HAUNT THIS ROAD. THE DIRECTIONS ARE TO FOLLOW OLD CHARTER CHURCH RD. UNTIL YOU COME TO A GRAVEL ROAD THAT LEADS INTO THE WOODS AND KEEP GOING AT A SPEED OF ABOUT 15 OR 20 MPH. KEEP GOING FOR ABOUT 2 OR 3 MINUTES AND STOP THE CAR. TURN EVERYTHING OFF AND SIT IN COMPLETE SILENCE WITH YOUR WINDOWS DOWN HALF WAY, ALL THE WAY IF YOUR REALLY BRAVE. MANY THINGS START TO HAPPEN LIKE SOUNDS OF PEOPLE TALKING IN THE WOODS AND PEOPLE WALKING AROUND. THE MOST COMMON ONE IS A GIRL STARTS SCREAMING VERY FAINTLY AND IT GETS LOUDER AND LOUDER AND THEN STOPS. AFTER A FEW SECONDS GOES BY THEN A MAN WITH BLOOD ALL OVER HIM COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND STARTS A CONVERSATION WITH YOU. ANOTHER COMMON THING THAT HAPPENS IS WHEN YOU LEAVE YOU SEE A FLIPPED CAR IN THE ROAD WITH A MAN THAT ASKS YOU TO HELP HIM FLIP HIS CAR BACK OVER. BEFORE OR AFTER YOU SEE THIS YOU START FEELING HANDS AND FINGERS START TOUCHING ALL OVER YOU LEGS AND BODY.
Missouri -
Crocker - Cry Baby Hollow - Located off DD hwy. just outside Crocker, if you go there between 11:50P.M. and 12:20 A.M. you will see a flash of light like a door opening and hear a baby crying and screams, then hear the mother crying for her child , all the while there are sets of evil looking red eyes in various spots around you. It was rumored that the woman was pregnant and while on a hiking trip fell into a ravine and that by time her rescuers got to her that she was already dead. Also the same location is rumored to be a gateway to hell.(WARNING: most people who go there and are brave enough to stay through the whole experience have some kind of Vehicle trouble upon trying to exit the hollow.(I.E.) flat tires mysterious claw marks on the vehicle, and even wrecks!!!)
Michigan-
Ypsilanti - just off Denton road - At night you an drive down this road and see weird blue lights flashing all over the whole road. the more noise you make the more lights come out. And if you get out of the car or turn off the engine you can hear metal chains or pipes grinding and also hear groans and growls.
Missouri-
Desoto - OLD ST.LOUIS ROAD - OFF HIGHWAY 67 AND OLD CHARTER CHURCH RD. THERE IS A ROAD THAT IS CALLED OLD ST. LOUIS RD. THE STORY IS THAT IN THE 1800'S IT WAS USED TO GET TO ST. LOUIS FROM FARMINGTON. IN BETWEEN 1800 AND 1954 THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED. NOW THEY ALL HAUNT THIS ROAD. THE DIRECTIONS ARE TO FOLLOW OLD CHARTER CHURCH RD. UNTIL YOU COME TO A GRAVEL ROAD THAT LEADS INTO THE WOODS AND KEEP GOING AT A SPEED OF ABOUT 15 OR 20 MPH. KEEP GOING FOR ABOUT 2 OR 3 MINUTES AND STOP THE CAR. TURN EVERYTHING OFF AND SIT IN COMPLETE SILENCE WITH YOUR WINDOWS DOWN HALF WAY, ALL THE WAY IF YOUR REALLY BRAVE. MANY THINGS START TO HAPPEN LIKE SOUNDS OF PEOPLE TALKING IN THE WOODS AND PEOPLE WALKING AROUND. THE MOST COMMON ONE IS A GIRL STARTS SCREAMING VERY FAINTLY AND IT GETS LOUDER AND LOUDER AND THEN STOPS. AFTER A FEW SECONDS GOES BY THEN A MAN WITH BLOOD ALL OVER HIM COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND STARTS A CONVERSATION WITH YOU. ANOTHER COMMON THING THAT HAPPENS IS WHEN YOU LEAVE YOU SEE A FLIPPED CAR IN THE ROAD WITH A MAN THAT ASKS YOU TO HELP HIM FLIP HIS CAR BACK OVER. BEFORE OR AFTER YOU SEE THIS YOU START FEELING HANDS AND FINGERS START TOUCHING ALL OVER YOU LEGS AND BODY.
One of those places is called "The Catfish Plantation" here in Waxahachie, Texas. It's in the most haunted places in America "book". Well, I don't believe it. I went to that place and went in to the restroom and turned out all of the lights and I called the Ghosts out. Either they don't exist or they were too afraid of me.
Mammoth2500
New member
Heres some interesting speculations why we can hear more at night.
1. People go to sleep, cars stop driving on the road, everything gets much more quiet. This reduces the ambient noise level allowing quiet sounds like dripping faucets to be heard more easily.
2. Our vision gets degraded causing us to focus more of our attention on what we can hear.
3. We become more nervous. Do you hear someone walking behind you? Step, step, step. This will tend to cause us to pay more attention as well
4. Sound travels slightly faster in warm air than in cool, with the result that if the temperature near the ground is greater, sound will tend to be refracted upward and become lost. This condition is more likely during the daytime when the sun is heating the ground.
1. People go to sleep, cars stop driving on the road, everything gets much more quiet. This reduces the ambient noise level allowing quiet sounds like dripping faucets to be heard more easily.
2. Our vision gets degraded causing us to focus more of our attention on what we can hear.
3. We become more nervous. Do you hear someone walking behind you? Step, step, step. This will tend to cause us to pay more attention as well
4. Sound travels slightly faster in warm air than in cool, with the result that if the temperature near the ground is greater, sound will tend to be refracted upward and become lost. This condition is more likely during the daytime when the sun is heating the ground.
Mammoth2500
New member
biteme said:
or perhaps the question is what is your grandmother smoking?
big_bad_buff
New member
listen to some of these then post up
http://elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4870504#post4870504
http://elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4870504#post4870504
Dieselgoku23
New member
Few things have happened to about 3 years ago I felt something similar about preasure in the chest feels bad, this was I was sleeping and you cant scream or move!! it use to happen to me very often I would also hear loud wind noise while this was happening one time it happened to me with my eyes open I started to see a figure make up I go scared I closed my eyes and prayed. Mind you though at the time I was going thru a difficult situation they had just repo my BMW my parents were going thru financial trouble,I couldnt go to school (college) had no money so was very difficult so might have been the stress who knows. Sometimes it happens here and there but not really.
big_bad_buff
New member
Actually that’s common, I forget what it’s called, but it’s when your brain wakes up or something and your body doesnt
Q
You know me well, BecomingBro.....
I want the red glowing evil eyes glaring through my soul! I want the pregnant woman desperating calling out to her child! I want the anguished cries of baby screaming for it mother! I want the the flat tires that pop when I'm trying to escape my impending doom! I want the mysterious claw marks on my vehicle and preferably ON ME TOO!
I want to feel the demons, heart & soul.......I want the fur, I want the flesh, I want the fury that can only surmised as the gateway to HeLL!
I want it all, nugga!
DIV
Becoming said:
You know me well, BecomingBro.....
I want the red glowing evil eyes glaring through my soul! I want the pregnant woman desperating calling out to her child! I want the anguished cries of baby screaming for it mother! I want the the flat tires that pop when I'm trying to escape my impending doom! I want the mysterious claw marks on my vehicle and preferably ON ME TOO!
I want to feel the demons, heart & soul.......I want the fur, I want the flesh, I want the fury that can only surmised as the gateway to HeLL!
I want it all, nugga!
DIV
Re: Q
It would be pretty sweet if one of those places did scare the shit out of you... LOL
Dude, I got a project for you - go to all these places and prove that there is no ghost in each one... stay the night one night in each place... or each of the "most haunted places in america"
don't tell anyone you are doing this though, or they will set up some bs trick...
this one sounds good too. I saw it on TV and it is supposed to be legit... too bad the owners aren't down with peeps scaring the shit out of themselves anymore...
Illinois-
Equality - The Old Slave House - !!!WARNING!!! Was once a tourist attraction for history buffs and ghost hunters alike. The house was sold to new owners in 1994 and they do not give tours. They do not want guest and they do not want anyone near the property. they will call the police on trespassers. - the story of the Slave house is, the owner built the house to breed slaves and sell them down south. He had many studs, his most famous was named Big Jim. All of the Slaves, including Big Jim were kept chained in little rooms in the attic. Slavery was Illegal in IL, so the owner has a side entrance built on to the house that a wagon could pull up to and a person or persons could be taken into the house and up to attic without being seen. Some of his victims were free blacks that he kidnapped and held captured until they were sold down south when was done breading them. To this day the attic still has the little stalls with the chains on the wall and floor. You can hear the moaning and crying of the slaves. Some reported seeing Big Jim in the Attic and other places in the house. There is a lot of activity in the house. The owners would give tours and even let people spend the nightin the attic. It is said no one has ever been able to stay till dawn in that attic. A few TV crews, ghost hunters and psychics have tried and failed.
DIVISION said:I want to feel the demons, heart & soul.......I want the fur, I want the flesh, I want the fury that can only surmised as the gateway to HeLL!
It would be pretty sweet if one of those places did scare the shit out of you... LOL
Dude, I got a project for you - go to all these places and prove that there is no ghost in each one... stay the night one night in each place... or each of the "most haunted places in america"
don't tell anyone you are doing this though, or they will set up some bs trick...
this one sounds good too. I saw it on TV and it is supposed to be legit... too bad the owners aren't down with peeps scaring the shit out of themselves anymore...
Illinois-
Equality - The Old Slave House - !!!WARNING!!! Was once a tourist attraction for history buffs and ghost hunters alike. The house was sold to new owners in 1994 and they do not give tours. They do not want guest and they do not want anyone near the property. they will call the police on trespassers. - the story of the Slave house is, the owner built the house to breed slaves and sell them down south. He had many studs, his most famous was named Big Jim. All of the Slaves, including Big Jim were kept chained in little rooms in the attic. Slavery was Illegal in IL, so the owner has a side entrance built on to the house that a wagon could pull up to and a person or persons could be taken into the house and up to attic without being seen. Some of his victims were free blacks that he kidnapped and held captured until they were sold down south when was done breading them. To this day the attic still has the little stalls with the chains on the wall and floor. You can hear the moaning and crying of the slaves. Some reported seeing Big Jim in the Attic and other places in the house. There is a lot of activity in the house. The owners would give tours and even let people spend the nightin the attic. It is said no one has ever been able to stay till dawn in that attic. A few TV crews, ghost hunters and psychics have tried and failed.
NO way in hell he would to it. One cemetary around here I would even drive him to and I bet he would not go to this corner under one tree for more than 15 min without running out of the place. Lots of people claim to be brave but I can tell you just about everyone will run from that place. Its way out in the boonies. Very scary.
Dieselgoku23
New member
yeah I research when I was getting that stuff it was sleep paralysis let me tell you that shit sucked lol!!.
sigweed
New member
DIVISION said:
dude isnt that like saying Wayne Gretzky has never scored a goal on you?
oh course you havent run from anything, you've openly admitted that you've never seen any ghosts or demons
i think you should totally try spending the night at one of those joints with a video camera or something
Mammoth2500
New member
I honestly don't believe in any of it at all either.. I would like to stay in a haunted freaky place.
Only dif for me is depending what i saw i might get freaked out and bolt.
None the less i enjoy challenging myself so i would more than likely go back.
Only dif for me is depending what i saw i might get freaked out and bolt.
None the less i enjoy challenging myself so i would more than likely go back.
I don’t know if I bel you. I have seen others say the same shit you have and they pussies out fast. Last 4th of July was talking about this cemetery I used to mow and my crew would all get freaked out in the day time. Friend of mine sounded a lot like you do so we went to the cemetery. Hell we where even drinking. About 5 of us. I opened the gate to the cemetery and said it’s all you man. He was drawn to the part where we all had weird feelings and he walked to it by himself. lol He came back pretty quick and said something is freaky down there. Well he took a few more people back to the spot with digital camera and all kinds of shit was showing up. He was a believer after that. This was done about 3-4 am in the morning. I think you are all talk. lol
I will even let my girl go down there with you. lol You will have to drag her by her hair though because she will be scared shitless.
I will even let my girl go down there with you. lol You will have to drag her by her hair though because she will be scared shitless.
DIVISION said:
dawookie
New member
ive read a book called "my life with spirits" by lon milo duquette.. its an autobiography relating to his experiences with demons, exorcisms, and rituals.. its a short read at only a couple hundred pages, I read the whole book in a night...
he goes into different rituals that he and his templar-type group used to communicate with different demons.. some are described and the zorro demon may even be described in it...
it was written by a guy who grew up under strong catholic upbringing and his brother strayed in one direction toward white magic and he went toward dark magic. the author has written books about aleister crowley and the thoth tarot deck as well as others.. for someone interested in demons, this is a recommended read.
he goes into different rituals that he and his templar-type group used to communicate with different demons.. some are described and the zorro demon may even be described in it...
it was written by a guy who grew up under strong catholic upbringing and his brother strayed in one direction toward white magic and he went toward dark magic. the author has written books about aleister crowley and the thoth tarot deck as well as others.. for someone interested in demons, this is a recommended read.
Mammoth2500
New member
DIVISION said:Kool.....What contraints are you giving me? It might take a real pounding to change her behaviour.....she sounds like a real bitch.
DIV
Nothing the experienced can't handle by the sounds of her
spongebob
New member
ghost update:
and i will preclude this with another posibilty.
my wife has recently started on wellbutrin because she is feeling more depressed from her monthly period. no biggie just 75mg twice daily. she has experience some side effects from it. one being insomnia. so last night she took 1mg, 1/5mg and 1/5mg of ativan over a two hour period. one side effect from both of these is hallucinations, but generally from overdose. so i wouldnt think what she took even came close to that range.
well last night i had to work nightshift, so she calls me and tells me she is scared. she was in bed and saw two ghostly figures standing next to the bed. a kid she thought was our daughter and someone else behind her. she saw it so clearly that she reached out to grab her, she thought she came in the room. she couldnt grab nothing and she turned on the light and nothing was there.
she turns off the light and tries to go to sleep again, she had never even went to sleep. so she sees to other ghoslty figures standing next to the door to the master bath. adult figures with a white glow just like before. she turns on the light and nothing. so we talked and i said its either a ghost or your illucibating. she says ok and we hang up.
30minutes later she calls again and wants me to come home. she is really scared now. she never went to sleep and heard the back door deadbolt unlock, she immediately thought that maybe i had decided to come home. well i didnt, she gets up and checks and the lock is locked. but its a very distinct noise to hear and this house is real quite at night.
but she finally fell asleep.
and i will preclude this with another posibilty.
my wife has recently started on wellbutrin because she is feeling more depressed from her monthly period. no biggie just 75mg twice daily. she has experience some side effects from it. one being insomnia. so last night she took 1mg, 1/5mg and 1/5mg of ativan over a two hour period. one side effect from both of these is hallucinations, but generally from overdose. so i wouldnt think what she took even came close to that range.
well last night i had to work nightshift, so she calls me and tells me she is scared. she was in bed and saw two ghostly figures standing next to the bed. a kid she thought was our daughter and someone else behind her. she saw it so clearly that she reached out to grab her, she thought she came in the room. she couldnt grab nothing and she turned on the light and nothing was there.
she turns off the light and tries to go to sleep again, she had never even went to sleep. so she sees to other ghoslty figures standing next to the door to the master bath. adult figures with a white glow just like before. she turns on the light and nothing. so we talked and i said its either a ghost or your illucibating. she says ok and we hang up.
30minutes later she calls again and wants me to come home. she is really scared now. she never went to sleep and heard the back door deadbolt unlock, she immediately thought that maybe i had decided to come home. well i didnt, she gets up and checks and the lock is locked. but its a very distinct noise to hear and this house is real quite at night.
but she finally fell asleep.
spongebob said:
You mentioned the deadbolt thing before, so I believe that the ghosts realize it spooks you and will continue doing it.
The ghostly figures are probably a side effect of the wellbutrin, until YOU actually see them I would not take them seriously.
If both of you see them at the same time, then I'd give it credence.
DIV
rsnoble-im-back
Banned
Ur gonna be pissed DIV: that goddamn ghost came in here last night and stole the brisket I was gonna cook this weekend!
dawookie
New member
Becoming said:
I bought if off of amazon, here is the url:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578631203/103-9008194-2395847?v=glance
rsnoble-im-back
Banned
15lbs and just about everything in the spice cabinet.
I have a peach tree that died over the winter and im going to cut it down and save the wood-theres quit a lot it was a pretty big tree. Already have a couple people wanting a little of it. I've heard it's really good for smoking but I haven't ever tried it.
I have a peach tree that died over the winter and im going to cut it down and save the wood-theres quit a lot it was a pretty big tree. Already have a couple people wanting a little of it. I've heard it's really good for smoking but I haven't ever tried it.
Destroyer1986*
New member
Lmao at the guy who was bitch slapped by the ghost.
What would be a good book to read on spiritual warfare, Im very interested in this topic!
Thanx
What would be a good book to read on spiritual warfare, Im very interested in this topic!
Thanx
Do you think it could be possible that the wellbutrin opens you up to the other side more easily? A guy I know who used to do meth used to tell me he would see shadows and shit. He said one would not leave him alone so he drove miles away for a long time. lol. Said he has never touched the shit since.
spongebob said:
spongebob
New member
KA-BAR said:
lmao! yea i know about the shadow people. thats an inside joke amongst meth users and even x users a little. they even come out when your not using. ive seen them for months.
the shadow people are different from your doplegangler. the shadow people are short and there are many. my buddy said, jokingly, its just something he has to live with.
rsnoble-im-back
Banned
Destroyer1986* said:
I am into astral projection and when I was less experienced got into a fight with some unknown which I learned later to be a poltergeist.
And.........unless your very, very open minded the thought of leaving your own body for midnight strolls is way out of line for most people.
There's a lot of talk about demons here. Here's what it says in my study bible about demons: The company of fallen angels who chose to follow Satan when he was cast out of his heavenly abode in eternity past. They are his personal emissaries who carry out his evil plan on earth until their ultimate judgement and doom. They have the ability to possess animals and people, working havoc in and through the lives of their victims. They energize idolatry,immorality, and every form of human wickedness ( l Corinthians 10:20, Revelation 9:20-21), Inspire false teachers (1 John 4:1-3) and exercise influential power over governmental leaders in the satanic world system ( Daniel 10:13, Ephesians 6:12). Demons exist today, comprising the invisible forces of darkness and wickedness that wage war against the forces of righteousness.
KA-BAR said:
The hallucinations you see while on drugs are not applicable here, KABARA. Those are figments of your imagination from the drugs fucking up your brain and perceptions. Psychiatric drugs and Stimulants like meth will make you see all kinds of shit, but I wouldn't take that as being supernatural.
biteme said:
Brad, when you bring religion in to this thread it just kills it for me. We came too far to throw it all away.
Keep it real, while I flip chips w/ Satan.....
DIV
spongebob said:
I realize that, spongebob......just stating my opinion is all.
None of this shit can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt anyway.
I've just always thought drug induced experiences should be discounted, because your mind is already altered, thus anything you see is tainted.
biteme said:
I already am, Brad. Sinning is my nature, so it would seem my fate is sealed.
DIV
Eringobraugh
New member
spongebob said:
An Idea
Hallucinogens and Einstein
If hallucinogens distort our perception of reality, wouldn't that mean that the theory of general relativity would be disproven?
Observation would no longer be the same for any 2 individuals..
Perhaps we need to revise this?
Eringobraugh said:
Reality is not an absolute. It is already accepted that reality is relative. It is defined as the common perception of the majority. People who do not percieve the same as the majority are generally thought of as having hallucinations.... When this interferes with your functioning in society, you are defined as having mental illness.
Ever seen the movie 12 monkeys? One of my favorite descriptions of this is from that movie. ie people who do not percieve the same as others are "mentally divergent"
Eringobraugh
New member
Mr. dB said:
Yeah right lol, just hasnt taken his Psych 410 class on Sensation and Perception. Then he'll realize that everything is just a hallucination created by the mind and neurochemical reactions. It simply cannot be stated that a sober reality is any better than a distorted reality by chemicals b/c each individual has their own unique brain chemistry usually within similar parameters but not always. Hence, reality is extremely subjective and only real in the individuals mind, everything is just a fabrication of one's mind, no two realities are the same. A chemical that distorts perception simply creates a new reality by definition, in that reality, that mind, it is real, they do see them just as someone sees a reality devoid of that chemical influence but still under the influence of other chemicals naturally, like food as a base example, reality distorts without food so food changes the reality, hence falls under the definition of a drug and also a drug definition is simply an agent that blocks a biological process, in this case food blocks the biological process of starvation. Regardless of sensation and perception that is wholly different that he'll find out in his psych 490 class on cognition and memory. Perception is one thing, its what cognition does with it, what the person interprets it as, that is where discussion comes in. What does a blind from birth person see on hallucinogens? If he can answer and explain how that impacts his position that then he gets a cookie.
In a 400 level history of Psych he'll see that the philosophies play out about all of reality and interpretation of the human condition. It goes on and on and on until it becomes a leap of faith that this reality is actually real. Its a Gedankenexperiment.
Eringobraugh
New member
Becoming said:
Beat me to it by a couple of seconds, yeah thats what I was saying. 12 monkeys great movie. Also Vanilla Sky is a great example of it as well as Jacob's Ladder, I hate to say but even the Matrix. No one can prove a reality, its a made up term. We are surrounded by ooze and we have a finite number of senses to perceive it, if we had more senses to perceive the reality in our mind would change but what we are surrounded by remains static, it does not change, only the way the mind thinks of it does. There are no such things as corners, colors etc... they dont exist until its created in the mind, an illusion of "perceived" reality, thats why they call it "perception" afterall.
The perceived reality in perception and reality science, like Mary who grows up in a room devoid of color, she learns what colors are but never sees them, everything put in the room is either black or white. Since she knows what colors are and how the mind interprets them, what happens when she goes out in the real world and sees colors for the first time, has she learned anything new?
Or the brain in the vat gedankenexperiment
In philosophy, the brain-in-a-vat is any of a variety of thought experiments intended to draw out certain features of our ideas of knowledge, reality, truth, mind, and meaning. It is drawn from the idea, common to many science fiction stories, that a mad scientist might remove a person's brain from their body to suspension in a vat of life-sustaining liquid, and connect its neurons by wires to a supercomputer which would provide it with electrical impulses identical to those the brain normally receives. According to such stories, the computer would then be simulating a virtual reality (including appropriate responses to the brain's own output) and the person with the "disembodied" brain would continue to have perfectly normal conscious experiences without these being related to objects or events in the real world.
The simplest use of brain-in-a-vat scenarios is as an argument for philosophical skepticism. A simple version of this runs as follows: Since the brain-in-a-vat gives and receives the exact same impulses as it would if it were in a skull, and since these are its only way of interacting with its environment, then it is not possible to tell, from the perspective of that brain, whether it is in a head or a vat. Yet in the first case most of the person's beliefs may be true (if he believes, say, that he is walking down the street, or eating ice-cream); in the latter case they are false. Since, the argument says, you cannot know whether or not you are a brain in a vat, then you cannot know whether most of your beliefs might be completely false. Since, in principle, it is impossible to rule out your being a brain in a vat, you cannot have good grounds for believing any of the things you believe; you certainly cannot know them.
This argument is little more than a contemporary revision of the argument given by Descartes in Meditations on First Philosophy that he could not trust his perceptions on the grounds that an evil demon might, conceivably, be controlling his every experience. It is also (though more distantly) related to Descartes' argument that he cannot trust his perceptions because he may be dreaming. In this latter argument the worry about active deception is removed.
Such puzzles have been worked over in many variations by philosophers in recent decades. Some, including Barry Stroud, continue to insist that such puzzles consistute an unanswerable objection to any knowledge claims. Others have argued against them, most notably Hilary Putnam. In the first chapter of his Reason, Truth, and HistoryPutnam claims that the thought experiment is inconsistent on the grounds that a brain in a vat could not have the sort of history and interaction with the world that would allow its thoughts or words to be about the vat that it is in. In other words, if a brain-in-a-vat stated "I am a brain in a vat," it would always be stating a falsehood. If the brain making this statement lives in the "real" world, then it is not a brain in a vat.
On the other hand, if the brain making this statement is really just a brain in the vat then by stating "I am a brain in a vat" what the brain is really stating is "I am what nerve stimuli have convinced me is a 'brain,' and I reside in an image that I have been convinced is called a 'vat'." That is, a brain in a vat would never be thinking about real brains or real vats, but rather about images sent into it that resemble real brains or real vats. This of course makes our definition of "real" even more muddled. This refutation of the vat theory is a consequence of his endorsement of, at that time, the causal theory of reference. Roughly, in this case: if you've never experienced the real world, then you can't have thoughts about it, whether to deny or affirm them. Putnam contends that by "brain" and "vat" the brain in a vat must be referring not to things in "our" world but to elements of its own "virtual world"; and it is clearly not a brain in a vat in that sense. Likewise, whatever we can mean by "brain" and "vat" must be such that we obviously are not brains in vats (the way to tell is to look in a mirror). Many writers have found Putnam's proposed solution unsatisfying, as it appears to depend on irrelevant facts about meaning: whether or not we can express it, there seems to be a real problem of knowledge here.
Last edited:
rsnoble-im-back said:
I want that fucking brisket.......I want the savory juices, I want the biscuits. When are having a meetup at your pad, YoungNoble?
Becoming said:
This is also my thinking on this.
Eringobraugh said:
No I haven't taken Sensation and Perception yet, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'd have a different opinion. I realize brain chemistry has a significant influence on perception, though there's no telling if mind altering drugs really allow you to see anything "supernatural", that is anything you would see had you not taken the drugs in the first place. This whole argument is intangible regardless. There's no right or wrong.
DIV
Eringobraugh said:
I think these are some neat questions... I see a color red - is it the same as you percieve it? no one knows. you might also call it red, but it might "look" green to you.
Also as for the girl who has never seen color, if put into a world of color after long enough, will she even be able to see them? If she has no previous experience, her brain may not be able to interpret them in a way that means anything to her, so her world may remain black and white as percieved...
It is known that the reason people have different experiences in learning/speaking languages later in life has something to do with the auditory learning that happens early in life (and the neural pathway development/remodeling that occurs as a result of this) Chinese people as the stereotype goes can't say their Rs (and instead say Ls) because that sound is not used in their language and they have never learned to percieve it... In addition, it is thought that the neural pathways developed and eliminated the possiblity that they might ever learn to hear it... They can't say those letters because they can't percieve the difference in the sounds... to them it does not exist... they hear the two the same...
Isn't it possible that this could happen with other modalities (like vision) So isn't it possible that the girl in the black and white room, if this went on long enough, might NEVER be able to percieve colors? Instead only seeing black and white? And you could in fact extrapolate this to other visual experiences.... what if someone had never previously percieved "spirits" at an early age and the neural pathways for these abilities were lost? Wouldn't it make sense then that the ability to percieve these phenomena would never exist for that individual?
Just something to think about.
Eringobraugh
New member
Becoming said:
Its an interesting idea and discussion of formation of brain and pathways and cognition and perception is an interesting one and also the differences between auditory and visual senses.
People that have never seen before, and then gain sight, spend years in intensive therapy just in order to do what we consider "instinctual" tasks such as judging depth; and understanding that when you reach out with your hand, your hand doesn't get smaller, it is just getting further away.
A man was given sight back after about 55 years (he lost it when he was young), and was caught by a nurse about to crawl out the window of the fifth story hospital window. He thought he was on the street level and that the cars were some sort of new technology he had never seen that was small. He didn't realize they looked small because they were far away.
I posed the question on an earlier post what does a blind person see on a hallucinogen, there was a report of a blind woman who became able to see while taking the powerful hallucinogen DMT. It sounds like an impossibility in first thought b/c we assume that there is an organic cause to the blindness but that isnt always the case. What if the chemical stimulates damaged pathways and allows sight. What if the brain was always able to see and interpret vision but lacked the awareness of it? Hence, the part of the brain that interprets vision has formed. This is too complex but it is somewhat along the lines of a variation of the formation of Broca's auditory area of the brain that you are talking about. If its not organic damage to the inner ear and Broca formed but brain damage prevented the cognition of hearing then it resides outside of that are in the cortex. It gets muddled and I think that the concept of language learning still applies but it brings about some interesting thoughts on it. Is it possible to see on a hallucinogen?
Actually, it would depend on the kind of blindness. Blindness can be caused by may different problems in different areas in the brain. You can even be blind because of dammage to the parietal cortex while the actual visual cortex still works. This results is cortical blindness, a condition in which the person believes they can still see, but are actually blind!
They say they can see the room perfectly clearly, but tell them to walk into the hall, and they hit the wall. Ask them what happened, and they tell you that you must have moved the door. The visual cortex works, and is telling the person they can see, but there is no signal in the parietal cortex to process and send to the conscious awareness in the frontal lobe. One part tells the frontal lobe it can see, but there is no visual information coming in.
Each brain has unique features, none is perfect, all have little tumors, blood vessle defects, are a little differently organized than all the others.
I see no reason why theoretically someone could not have their visual cortex and parietal cortex working their entire lives, thus having "sight" and proper programing, but have axonal dammage or insufficency to provide that signal to the frontal lobes, thus making the person consciously unaware thay have sight. It that case perhaps the increese in nural activity from the DMT, or the change in other nefurotransmitters affected by it, could boost the signal enough to make visual signals conscious in the frontal lobes.
Remember, the visual learning and memory does not happen in the area we call conscious awareness. It interprets and decides on the signals it recieves from the other areas of the brain.
To actually know what happened with this person she would have to undergo a before and after nurological exam. Whatever it was, it may be unique to her brain structure, or a complete misinterpretation of the experience itself.
Brain actually makes up more than 90% of what you think you see. If you hold two fingers out at arms length, that's your actual visual field. The illusion of wider visual field comes from the eyes constant scanning being held in active memory and the brain piecing it all togetherwith filtration and additions, into the illusion of a wider field.
People think there are five senses, wrong! 27 seperate perceptuall maps being integrated all at once. some of the stranger things that happen in the visual system, just for information and "laughs", from damage to the ocipital cortex and thalmus at different areas;
Can't see individual objects.
Can't determine the relationship of objects in space.
Can't see objects if they move until they stop moving again.
Can't see more than one object at a time.
Right or left half of the universe literally ceases to exist. You have to rotate all the way around in one direction or the other to find the other half.
Can't see faces anymore, but all other objects are visable.
Can see objects, but can't locate them in space.
Can see normally, but have no sense where you are in relation to what you are seeing.
Other system in the brain when not working cause more "fun" problems;
Can see objects and name them, but no longer know what they are.
Can see them, know what they are for, but have no names for them.
The use of hallucinogens to see the spirit world has been part of many cultures and what they see is real in their mind, hence it becomes real. It becomes a question of knowledge or the multiple worlds theory and the like. No one can discount people's belief in spirits. Personally I dont believe that they can be seen without chemical enhancement to heighten perception as someone that has experimented with such molecules. I have seen what appears to be much realer than real experiences with them and therefore exist in my mind which is in contrast to me usually dismissing people who see spirits as mindtricks of their own making. Its all a leap of faith, but if anyone wants to experience full interaction with spirits there are molecules scientifically proven to reproduce those experiences and Ive tried them and they work.
spongebob
New member
Eringobraugh said:An Idea
Hallucinogens and Einstein
If hallucinogens distort our perception of reality, wouldn't that mean that the theory of general relativity would be disproven?
Observation would no longer be the same for any 2 individuals..
Perhaps we need to revise this?
i thought observation wasnt the same for two individuals already.
Last edited:
spongebob
New member
Mr. dB said:
no not really, reality is just a perception from one person to the next. whether that person is blind, deaf or drug induced may change the reality but doesnt change the fact that that reality is just as real as the reality that everyone views as common. well at least thats what i think.
Last edited:
biteme said:
When it turns to fact there will be no more use for faith.
mustang_00 said:
Sounds like the making of a good horror movie.
Guvna said:
Awesome!!! OMFG. Frighteningly interesting.
DIVISION said:
Yes, this is what makes the world truly interesting-experiencing the unknown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammoth2500
you know what they say.. keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
I think it means just to never let your guard down/ being prepared.
Originally Posted by Mammoth2500
you know what they say.. keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
DIVISION said:
I think it means just to never let your guard down/ being prepared.
Eringobraugh
New member
spongebob said:
Ok, sponge first off it was a joke but what I was referring to was how time slows down for an individual, you know what I mean
. Literally things stop or become superslow in perception, as if time has changed. Also bending the rules of probability with a certain molecule that people report on a reproducible level amongst individuals that were independently unaware of such effects. It was humor based on hypothetical speculation for fun. 
spongebob
New member
Eringobraugh said:Ok, sponge first off it was a joke but what I was referring to was how time slows down for an individual, you know what I mean
screw you i should bomb you my damn self!!@!
spongebob said:
In that case, all of life is an illusion then, Sponger.
hanselthecaretaker said:
You're really giving biteme a stark reality when you take away his religious security blanket. We're not talking elephants here, nugga.
hanselthecaretaker said:
I don't just want to "experience" the unknown......I want to be kneedeep in it's ass railing it up against a wall.....I want to live, breathe, eat, fuck that shit.....feel me?
hanselthecaretaker said:
My guard is never really down, until I'm laying naked on the cool carpet of my 2 bedroom apartment.
DIV
DIVISION said:
Over the course of our lives, we acquire certain concrete understandings of what "reality" is, which we accept without any suspicion or doubt; i.e. no one would argue that an orange is a fruit or that Dell, Inc. makes computers, etc, etc, provided that all these things are learned in a sober, natural state of mind. If one wants to debate what an actual "natural" state of mind is, perse, then that is where the possibilities turn infinite.
You have to draw the line somewhere.
I'm hungry and need food now.
Daeo
Well-known member
I've been in the presence of something I can't explain a few times before. Seen someone sitting at the dining room table when no one was home, then it was gone. Also at the same table I've seen a figure in white leaning over the table looking at something, then gone the next moment. Glad to be out of there...
rsnoble-im-back
Banned
DIVISION said:I want that fucking brisket.......I want the savory juices, I want the biscuits. When are having a meetup at your pad, YoungNoble?
This is also my thinking on this.
No I haven't taken Sensation and Perception yet, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'd have a different opinion. I realize brain chemistry has a significant influence on perception, though there's no telling if mind altering drugs really allow you to see anything "supernatural", that is anything you would see had you not taken the drugs in the first place. This whole argument is intangible regardless. There's no right or wrong.
DIV
Hopefully things will settle down around here by end of summer where I can actually have some people over.
And as far as drugs go---one time as teens messing around in the graveyard at midnight we had this guy with us that we called Strawberry. Everyone looked normal but when I looked at Strawberry he looked like a total Demon and I nudged my friend to look at him and he turned white and ran off. Then everyone else seen him and freaked. I never got around that guy again.
