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Beginner Cycle - HELP plz :) Test Enth / Primo VSTest Enth / Eq VS Test Enth only

SuperStrong

High End Bro
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been researching a lot. And first cycle is either Test enth only... or Test enth / Eq... or Test Enth / Primo. I was about to do Test enth / Deca but Deca seems a little harsh with the whole progesterone prolactin thing so I ruled that one out...

Since it's the first cycle I want to go with a conservative dose / like the minimum, low-end dosage, since I figured the body never experienced AAS before that it would react to a low dose, then i can think of increasing dosage on future cycles. Would you help me out my brothas?

Do you guys recommend a Test Enth/Primo cycle out of the three I mentioned above?

My goal is to build mass / bulk / quality mass gain.

I was thinking going the Mick Hart conservative dosage route.. something like 250mg Test Enth / 200 Primo per week (Question: Why do people recommend shooting twice a week. Can't I shoot this once a week and still get stable blood levels?)... you think that's good for a first timer on a cycle? never even touched prohormones? So, the cycle be able to pack a punch in that case?

Also, what ancillary to run on cycle? Adex .25mg ED? or is that overkill? Maybe .25 EOD? Or is aromasin better than adex? And i'm not sure what's the dosage for aromasin.

What about PCT? Is HCG a must for a beginner? What is the recommended PCT for a beginner cycle?

SS
 
So i'm thinking something like:

wks 1-12 Test Enanthate 250
wks 1-12 Arimidex .25 E3D
wks 1-14 Primo 200
wks 15-18 PCT

Not exactly sure about PCT, can someone advise? I read some PCT consisting of Aromasin, Nolvadex. Also HCG is in the mix, some people use it mid cycle, some at the start of the cycle, and some during the PCT weeks (like Anthony Roberts' PCT regimen).

Or is there a natural PCT alternative? Can I use something like natural herbal testosterone booster like Tongkat Ali? Or how does Tribulus fare?

Thinking of also having Letro in hand as a safety measure, as I hear it is able to reverse gyno if symptoms start occuring.
 
And primo vs. eq... am I making the right decision to go with Primo in my first cycle, you think?

Again goal is to gain as much muscle mass as I can. I'm kinda scared of using Deca for my first cycle. I heard Eq was stronger than primo though.. but some people are saying the gains of muscle with Primo are harder and better, is this true? So I guess i'm debating between Eq and Primo.
 
Response to different steroids is an individual thing and most of your questions cannot be answered with any accuracy. But here are some general points:

The shorter your cycle, the easier it is to recover. For a 12 or 14 weeks cycle HCG is a necessity (in my opinion).

Natural PCT products are available. See Primordial Performance

Primo or EQ at 200mg/wk is a waste (also my opinion).

The half-life of test enanthate is 4-5 days. Twice weekly shots are best for stable blood levels.


My best advice on a first cycle is run test prop at 100mg EOD for 6 weeks. That will be 20 injections of 100mg for a total of 2 grams worth of gear.

From that cycle you will see good results, you will see how you react to test, and you will have a nice easy recovery (without HCG). For your 2nd cycle you can stack another steroid and see how you like that, etc.
 
So will this be better:

wk 1-12 Primo 400mg
wk 1-12 Test Enth 250mg
wk 1-12 Adex .25 EOD or ED
wk 13-14 nothing
wk 15-18 nolvadex

Is 400mg of Primo really the minimum dosage to be effective -- even for a first-time cycle?

Does Primo have a shorter half life than test enth? Or if i don't have to worry about that for PCT..maybe it would be best to continue Primo at wk 13-14 after I stopped testosterone, and then after my last shot of Primo, I start PCT on wk 15-18?

What do you guys think of that?

SS
 
im on my 2nd cycle. i just ran enanthate 500mg ew for 10 weeks (split into two injects) 250 monday 250 thursday. it was a good first cycle. if i could do it over again id probably throw 25mg of dbol everyday for the first 5 weeks. make sure u get ur pct down. i gained 19lbs on first cycle then lost everything because of poor pct.

by the way whats ur stats?
 
im on my 2nd cycle. I just ran enanthate 500mg ew for 10 weeks (split into two injects) 250 monday 250 thursday. It was a good first cycle. If i could do it over again id probably throw 25mg of dbol everyday for the first 5 weeks. Make sure u get ur pct down. i gained 19lbs on first cycle then lost everything because of poor pct.

by the way whats ur stats?

damn
 
So i'm thinking something like:

wks 1-12 Test Enanthate 250
wks 1-12 Arimidex .25 E3D
wks 1-14 Primo 200
wks 15-18 PCT

Not exactly sure about PCT, can someone advise? I read some PCT consisting of Aromasin, Nolvadex. Also HCG is in the mix, some people use it mid cycle, some at the start of the cycle, and some during the PCT weeks (like Anthony Roberts' PCT regimen).

Or is there a natural PCT alternative? Can I use something like natural herbal testosterone booster like Tongkat Ali? Or how does Tribulus fare?

Thinking of also having Letro in hand as a safety measure, as I hear it is able to reverse gyno if symptoms start occuring.

I like the cycle. People forget that test alone for awhile will do some serious damage to tendons and collagen and all that crap.

I think primo, eq, deca or anavar are always a must to keep a nice balance and keep you strong and healthy.

PCT Id do hcg, clomid and natural herbs.
 
i like test alone for a 1st cycle .. it will be the base of almost every cycle to come for u.. see how your body reacts to it and learn the effects it has on your body .. hard to do this when u add other compounds 1st time..dont know whats causing what good and bad

after 1st cycle , feel free to add .. i never do test alone anymore practically
 
Maybe you posted them in another thread, or am I blind and did not see your stats?
Now dont think I'm flaming advice because I am using prop for the first time right now and love it. EOD injects are no big deal. However, I think that might be a bit much for a first timer. My personal recomendation (from my experience) Is 250mg sustanon, every 5 days for 10 weeks. that way you will see what your body thinks of AAS. But whether you use test P, E, C, or sust I dont se a problem with 250mg a week. If you really dont want to inject twice a week for your first run then go E5D. I personally would not use the AI right off the bat unless you are prone to gyno and know it. that wat , again, you see how your body reacts to test. You will see if it bloats you or not. you may be one of those people who never needs an AI during cycle.
I would stick with your theory of using the lowest effective dose. Its good thinking.
I think nydj66's advice is good with the prop because you have alot more control with prop. If for some reason you have to stop or have bad sides its out of your body in a couple days. But that all depends on your feelings about EOD injections. honestly you could go L delt, L glute, R delt , R glute and repeat. You would be hitting each spot once every 7 days.
 
I like the cycle. People forget that test alone for awhile will do some serious damage to tendons and collagen and all that crap.

I think primo, eq, deca or anavar are always a must to keep a nice balance and keep you strong and healthy.

PCT Id do hcg, clomid and natural herbs.

What do you mean it will do bad things to your tendons? Explain?
 
I think the 250mg Test/ 400mg Primo sounds good... as far as PCT, check out Nelson's and Needto's posts about the "new PCT".
 
thanks guys!

For those who asked, my stats are 25 yo / 170-180lbs / about 13% bf / never been on cycle or even prohormones for that matter / been lifting 4-5 yrs so I got diet and training on check for a natural regimen anyway / do usually 40-30-30 protein,fat,carbs,and i like to do 20 times my bodyweight to get minimum calorie starting point since I don't carry extreme amount of bodyfat weight to begin with.. somewhat of an ectomorph build.

My goals: To pack on significant muscle gains.

My Concerns: I have a history with acne. It's gotten much better, i get the occasional white head. Skin is a bit on the oily side, obviously, with being acne prone. So I want to keep my acne under control if at all possible during cycle.

I was thinking of doing a test/primo cycle since my goal is to add size. But at the same time I'm kinda concerned that my body won't like the test and it'll make me breakout. So I am debating between a test/primo cycle or a primo-only cycle or maybe a primo/var cycle. Anyone experience a primo-only cycle can comment or a primo/var cycle? Benefits of Primo only cycle or maybe even primo/var is I don't have to worry about estrogen or any of that stuff.. so no need for nolvadex or AIs and for PCT it would be natural herbal test boosters.

Thanks for your help! Appreciate it!

SS
 
So will this be better:

wk 1-12 Primo 400mg
wk 1-12 Test Enth 250mg
wk 1-12 Adex .25 EOD or ED
wk 13-14 nothing
wk 15-18 nolvadex

Is 400mg of Primo really the minimum dosage to be effective -- even for a first-time cycle?

Does Primo have a shorter half life than test enth? Or if i don't have to worry about that for PCT..maybe it would be best to continue Primo at wk 13-14 after I stopped testosterone, and then after my last shot of Primo, I start PCT on wk 15-18?

What do you guys think of that?

SS

Bump this question:

Is it a good strategy to continue primo 2 weeks after my last Testosterone injection?

I'm thinking, you have to wait 2 weeks after last injection of testosterone enth to let the test e leave the body, and then do the PCT... so during the 2 weeks waiting time, maybe it's a good idea to still run Primo? Since I've never heard that you have that there's a waiting time for Primo before you start PCT..and I think primo doesn't even really need PCT to begin with.

Also... how do I incorporate Aromasin into a cycle. I hear it's better than adex. So what is the minimum low-dosage of aromasin on that test/primo cycle you think? I've read a lot of adex dosage on cycle but not much out there on aromasin for on cycle.

Let me know, thanks

SS
 
I personally would not use the AI right off the bat unless you are prone to gyno and know it. that wat , again, you see how your body reacts to test. You will see if it bloats you or not. you may be one of those people who never needs an AI during cycle.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Question. Wouldn't you always want to use an AI even if you don't really react to estrogen (estrogen sides)? Because isn't the body always going to try and downregulate/maintain homeostasis by converting the injected testosterone into estrogen? So in essence it's like the body is lowering the dosage you're injecting, and an AI will make sure that the body isn't too successful in doing this by blocking the aromatase enzyme?

Thanks,

SS
 
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Primo acts as an anti e so unless you're really prone to e sides you shouldn't need anything. Maybe a natty e like in POST CYCLE or Sustain would be enough until PCT.

My PCT is a little different than PP, obviously. We each developed products that we found to work. I found PP's Sustain to be very good and would add it to my recommendation of HMG, UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE and arimidex. I hate nolvadex and see no reason for it.
 
Hi Nelson, thanks for your reply.

Primo acts as an anti e so unless you're really prone to e sides you shouldn't need anything. Maybe a natty e like in POST CYCLE or Sustain would be enough until PCT.

"natty e"? Does that mean natural anti-estrogen? just making sure i'm on the same page lol.

What do you think of what I said earlier? here:

Wouldn't you always want to use an AI even if you don't really react to estrogen (estrogen sides)? Because isn't the body always going to try and downregulate/maintain homeostasis by converting the injected testosterone into estrogen? So in essence it's like the body is lowering the dosage you're injecting, and an AI will make sure that the body isn't too successful in doing this by blocking the aromatase enzyme?


And, in addition to Test Enth 250mg, is Primobolan 200mg/wk too low? Do I have to bump it up to 400mg? 2x200mg a week, like Mon/Saturday?

Also, what do you think about a Primo-only cycle? Is that worth doing?


Nelson Montana said:
My PCT is a little different than PP, obviously. We each developed products that we found to work. I found PP's Sustain to be very good and would add it to my recommendation of HMG, UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE and arimidex. I hate nolvadex and see no reason for it.

What would the purpose of arimidex be for on PCT again? I think Nolvadex was to get the LH/GnRH/etc kicking again right? But I guess with the more natural alternatives you mentioned, then there would be no need for Nolva in that case. Can i just use straight resveratrol powder + Tongkat Ali extract + Tribulus extract + Toco8 or natural Vitamin E complex mix, for my PCT? Or maybe even on Cycle might be a good idea too.

What do you know about Saw Palmetto which prevents Testosterone to DHT conversion? And Nettle extract which is said to prevent testosterone to estrogen conversion? Also the natural supp called DIM which is also an anti-e. Do you have any thoughts of that?

Thanks,

SS
 
While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.
Reply With Quote
 
Wow, thanks Galaxy, that is a very informative post.

My goal is more for Mass Gain rather than fatloss.

Following along the lines of your post, for a first-time ever beginner cycle (but not 100% sure of the dosage, would you please advise?) I'm thinking:

Primobolan 400mg per week (shot of two 200mg, separate days, per week)
Test Enth 200mg per week
Anavar 25-50mg per day..i'll probably taper up then back down to 25 during the course of the cycle.
Supplements: Creatine, Liv52, DIM, Saw Palmetto, Tribulus and/or Tongkat Ali to keep the boys active

**Question: is it better to split the Test Enth into two shots per week, deviding the Test to 2x 100mg dose, shot together with Primo since i'm also shooting Primo 2x a week? Or in this case, would it be more stable
blood levels if I just shot the Test Enth at the beginning of the week for a full 200mg shot?

**Question: Will Test Enth of 200mg per week do more than maintain test levels? I mean I heard that the body usually produces about 7mg of natural testosterone per week... so doesn't a 200mg per week dose of testosterone should pack a punch for the first time aas user?

**Question: Would one be able to get away with a 200mg per week dose of Primo? Or is 400mg the absolute minimum to get good effect?

**Question: Also what are your thoughts on a Primo/Anavar cycle? No test enth.

**Question: Probably no need for HCG in this first cycle, right? What about SERMS/AI on cycle? How do you think PCT would look? Can I just try boosting my natural test producting post-cycle with natural herbal Testosterone boosters like Tongkat Ali and tribulus?


Again, i'm going for the low-end/conservative dose that still gives good effect for the first time cycle

Thanks guys for all your help!

SS
 
Last edited:
200mgs with 400mgs of primo would be a good starting point along with the anavar. The anavar may be overkill however and not needed till 2nd cycle.

HCG is still a must if you ask me. At the end of cycle is fine. Taken throughout isnt neccessary.
 
Galaxy,

Any idea where that post comes from originally? It's been floating around and is often quoted, but I've never seen the source or research behind it. Just curious if anyone knows who wrote this to begin with...
 
Hey Galaxy, how would you recommend the HCG be done? And could you explain why you think the anavar is overkill for a first cycle with primo/test.

thanks!

SS
 
Galaxy,

Any idea where that post comes from originally? It's been floating around and is often quoted, but I've never seen the source or research behind it. Just curious if anyone knows who wrote this to begin with...


No clue. But I would say its right on from my experience.

I myself like to do 2500ius hcg every 5th day for a total of 4 injects at the end of cycle followed by 3 weeks of clomid. Then I hit up the herbs and amminos for a few weeks.
 
Galaxy,

Im planning my first ever cycle of 250mg of Test E for 10 weeks now you have totally freaked me out as im a really active person that enjoys alot of sport and dont really want to find myself with a snapped tendon. WTF am i going to do? Do i need to throw in some Deca to prevent this?


While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.
Reply With Quote
 
Galaxy,

Im planning my first ever cycle of 250mg of Test E for 10 weeks now you have totally freaked me out as im a really active person that enjoys alot of sport and dont really want to find myself with a snapped tendon. WTF am i going to do? Do i need to throw in some Deca to prevent this?

Bro you have no worries. Your all set. This only happens with people who stay on for 8 months out of the year with no breaks and never run any eq or deca.

This is why we talk about time on = time off

Now if you doing lots of eq and some HGH your time off can be greatley reduced.
 
Bro you have no worries. Your all set. This only happens with people who stay on for 8 months out of the year with no breaks and never run any eq or deca.

This is why we talk about time on = time off

Now if you doing lots of eq and some HGH your time off can be greatley reduced.


Ahhh i see ! Well here i come then! lol
 
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