Band Training...Most affective routine..Trying to tweak 5x5.

[mm107]

Hey all. some might know me from my thread...

Ive ran through the 5x5 plan and LOVE IT. GOT VERY VERY STRONG.

Also kinda hurt my shoulder but im taking the neccesary steps(it was just banged up).

But i want to throw bands in for resistance. I have a competition in OCT, so i want to have explosiveness power too, since everyone im going up against has yrs of training. I am strong, but i lack the explosiveniss i think...

My Goals:
Have explosive Power.
Have 400lb RAW Sqaut ( already hit 405x1 in the cheap suit)
Have 500lbs Raw Deadlift ( already can hit 435x4)
Have 315 Raw Bench (This will take the longest)

Right Now:
405x1 Sqaut w/ Cheap suit on
485x1 Deadlift w/ Cheap suit on
240x5 RAW

I would be a novice.... So it still a good chance i can take it...

BUTTTTT I want to incorporate Bands..WHY? Because i want explosive power right now.

this is from T-nation article..

Some guidelines

1. For maximum hypertrophy keep the reps between 6 and 10 reps while using a bar weight of 65-75%.

2. To reap maximum benefit from hypertrophy band training you should use a slow eccentric tempo (lowering the bar in 4-6 seconds) and try to lift the resistance as fast as possible.

3. Because of the high degree of eccentric stress from this method, the volume of training for each muscle group should be slightly lower than with your regular training.

4. Only use this combo method for, at most, 4-6 weeks in a row as it’s very stressful on the body and nervous system.

5. Because of the high trauma this approach inflicts on the muscle fibers, a proper post-workout shake like Surge is an absolute must if you want to progress at an optimum rate.

This would only LAST 6 weeks max. First 2 weeks Will be deloading because my shoulder is somewhat still banged up so i want to go light for atleast 1 or 2 weeks.

Im thinking of actually just doing the 5x5 routine, with 65% of the weight i would do for reps. Is this reasonable?

This is what im changing tho
Sqauts: Box Sqaut w/ Band setup Or do u think ATF Sqauts are more beneficial in this situation?

Also i will be deadlifting w/ bands to help w/ the lockout. I will also stand on a 1 inch mat while deadlifting to improve my lower part of the lift.

Also will be training HIP FLEXORS/GROIN w/ bands too to help them catch up.

I also will be incorporating Goodmornings/Still leg Deadlifts into the routine as well.

So please READ my GOALS, and letme know if i will be able to accomplish w/ this routine.

 

[Protobuilder]

Well, you’ve just mentioned a whole lot of stuff (e.g., want to be “explosive” but also want to improve your bench lockout, and want to work the bottom part of your deadlift as well as banded squats, etc.). That’s a lot of ‘stuff.’

If you want speed work, I don’t know how/whether bands fit in there, but I do know that you should take a look at Westside’s DE method. You definitely don’t need a “hypertrophy” phase right now if you’re looking at gaining speed/incraesing power. Two diff’t goals there. You could go into a full-blown WS template I guess, conjugating hypertrophy & speed, etc. . . . I’m not sure how to set that up properly. But, my bigger point is that you seem . . . unfocused for lack of a better word. And I’m not trying to put you down. I’m just saying, you need to figure out exactly what needs work and target that. Do you really need lockout power on bench? Or is it a matter of speed/power? Or do you just need max strength period? And on deadlift, why train on a platform? Is your dead really suffering right off the floor? And is extending the ROM 2 inches going to fix that for you? It might; I’m just saying you need to narrow down exactly what needs work and what just “sounds” like something you “ought” to do.

I’m no expert, but if you need speed / power work (and you probably do coming out of a 5x5 max strength training cycle), you might look at keeping the regular lifts in there (bands or no bands, I dunno, but I know you’re aching to play with them, LoL), and adding in a speed day a la Westside.

Also, didn’t you decide against bands about 2-3 weeks ago? LoL I know they’re shiny & new right now, but are they what you need?

 

[mm107]

Well, you’ve just mentioned a whole lot of stuff (e.g., want to be “explosive” but also want to improve your bench lockout, and want to work the bottom part of your deadlift as well as banded squats, etc.). That’s a lot of ‘stuff.’

If you want speed work, I don’t know how/whether bands fit in there, but I do know that you should take a look at Westside’s DE method. You definitely don’t need a “hypertrophy” phase right now if you’re looking at gaining speed/incraesing power. Two diff’t goals there. You could go into a full-blown WS template I guess, conjugating hypertrophy & speed, etc. . . . I’m not sure how to set that up properly. But, my bigger point is that you seem . . . unfocused for lack of a better word. And I’m not trying to put you down. I’m just saying, you need to figure out exactly what needs work and target that. Do you really need lockout power on bench? Or is it a matter of speed/power? Or do you just need max strength period?


Well, i feel that my 'sticking point' on my bench is due to the lack of momentum/lack of speed. Im going for max strenght on all lifts.

And on deadlift, why train on a platform? Is your dead really suffering right off the floor? And is extending the ROM 2 inches going to fix that for you? It might; I’m just saying you need to narrow down exactly what needs work and what just “sounds” like something you “ought” to do.


Off the floor is one of my battles. Once its off the floor it flies up, just mentally the bottom is the hardest and i wanted my lower back to really get strong as hell. Ive done alot of reading/reseatch and in a book i was reading lifting on a platform to get the extra range was supposevely a 'lost workout'....

I’m no expert, but if you need speed / power work (and you probably do coming out of a 5x5 max strength training cycle), you might look at keeping the regular lifts in there (bands or no bands, I dunno, but I know you’re aching to play with them, LoL), and adding in a speed day a la Westside.

Also, didn’t you decide against bands about 2-3 weeks ago? LoL I know they’re shiny & new right now, but are they what you need?

Yea i was looking into the idea, trying to play around w/ it. And one of the reasons to change was if you are not seeing results, or just plain bored. Well im not that bored, i just think im being conservative w/ the program. I EAT amazing, so my healing ability is definately above Par. Maybe i should look into the Duel Factor or Advanced 5x5 plans?


Damn lol imma havta answer all questions...All my responses in RED above..
Nice man! K to you!

 

[Protobuilder]

LoL

Here’s what I’m saying: you figure out what needs improvement and THEN you pick the program/plan that best attacks those areas. The ‘advanced’ DF 5x5 has nothing to do with improving your “explosiveness” except inasmuch as it improves max strength, the precursor to power development. You’d still need to “convert” your new found strength into power. You do that via DE style training, etc. I’m no expert in that area so can’t say much more than that. Just notice the bigger picture: find what needs improvement, then find a way to fix it. You don’t haphazardly start throwing things at your body kind of “hoping” that you’re fixing what needs fixing. I’m not trying to put you down or say that’s what you’re doing, but you’re kind of shotgunning right now hoping to be ready for an Oct. competition. A lot of the stuff out there is PERFECT . . . for the right person at the right time. It’s all tools. You use the right tool at the right time. If the sink is clogged, you don’t dump your toolbox into the sink and hope for the best. LoL Bands may or may not be what you need. Power training may or may not be what you need. Platform deads may or may not be what you need. I wish I could be more specific w/ my “help.” I’ll just say that at this stage in your training, you probably just need more continued work on the lifts.

Another big point that keeps coming up both here and w/ others (myself included): the use of assistance exercises and the “specificity” principle in training. The best way to improve your skill at deadlifting is to deadlift. The best way to improve your squat is to squat. I think Glen has said before that people feel like they have weak points but what they really need to do is just keep working the lift. The further away from the lift you go, the less carry-over you’ll see. So, platform deads may be great for improving strength off the floor . . . or they may be just different enough for your DL form that you are forced to learn a new groove, which doesn’t then help you when you go back to regular DL. Make sense? I’m not saying “don’t do platform DLs.” I’m just saying think it through and think about what’s going on when you start doing Task B to get better at Task A.

 

[mm107]

LoL

Here’s what I’m saying: you figure out what needs improvement and THEN you pick the program/plan that best attacks those areas. The ‘advanced’ DF 5x5 has nothing to do with improving your “explosiveness” except inasmuch as it improves max strength, the precursor to power development. You’d still need to “convert” your new found strength into power. You do that via DE style training, etc. I’m no expert in that area so can’t say much more than that. Just notice the bigger picture: find what needs improvement, then find a way to fix it. You don’t haphazardly start throwing things at your body kind of “hoping” that you’re fixing what needs fixing. I’m not trying to put you down or say that’s what you’re doing, but you’re kind of shotgunning right now hoping to be ready for an Oct. competition. A lot of the stuff out there is PERFECT . . . for the right person at the right time. It’s all tools. You use the right tool at the right time. If the sink is clogged, you don’t dump your toolbox into the sink and hope for the best. LoL Bands may or may not be what you need. Power training may or may not be what you need. Platform deads may or may not be what you need. I wish I could be more specific w/ my “help.” I’ll just say that at this stage in your training, you probably just need more continued work on the lifts.

Another big point that keeps coming up both here and w/ others (myself included): the use of assistance exercises and the “specificity” principle in training. The best way to improve your skill at deadlifting is to deadlift. The best way to improve your squat is to squat. I think Glen has said before that people feel like they have weak points but what they really need to do is just keep working the lift. The further away from the lift you go, the less carry-over you’ll see. So, platform deads may be great for improving strength off the floor . . . or they may be just different enough for your DL form that you are forced to learn a new groove, which doesn’t then help you when you go back to regular DL. Make sense? I’m not saying “don’t do platform DLs.” I’m just saying think it through and think about what’s going on when you start doing Task B to get better at Task A.

WOW PROTO smart bro...

In no way would i ever think u were putting me down, lol unless u were like ur 'ur stupid' wich i dont think i every would see u write lol

I understand exactly what you mean! I see what you are telling me....

Basically i can tell im too 'novice' in this sport yet to be able to pinpoint EXACTLY what needs fixing yet. Wich is very true. Only got about 6months under my belt. Guess im just bored and was looking to spice things up...

But hey i like training smart alot. Looks like im gonna stay on my 5x5 untill i really fall off or seriously plateu.

What im gonna do about the deadlift, is work the actual lift, and then for accesory/burnout sets ill throw in some misc work, such as lifting from the mat. BUT they wont be my main lift. THE DEADLIFT will remain as the main lift.

Really appreciate it proto!

 

[BiggT]

MM, that is really good advice from Proto, I agree with it and I tend to come from the same school, that you only use the tools you need when you need them.

Look at the progress you are STILL making, your deadlift was going up and up by just deadlifting. An example of needing to work your start would be if you were deadlifting 485 and hadn't improved that for 6 months despite consistently trying to, however, you could pull 525 from 18", then you may want to look into what you can do to gain some strength off the floor. Now of course everybody can pull more from 18" than they can the floor, but as long as your pull from the floor keeps going up, then you have no issue....did that make sense? lol

Again, with explosion on the bench, do you know for a fact that it is an issue? If you can bench 275 for a single, then you put on 315 and get burried it isn't because you are too slow off the chest, it is simply too damn much weight at this point in time and working a % of 275 with bands and doing lockouts with 350 won't help you bench 315 the most efficient way. The way I see it, you're progressing really well and have not hit a wall in the least, I think you can get the bench to 315 by just benching and adding weight each time, as nothing from your journal is leading me to believe you were stalling out.....and even when you do stall out, I'd still say try taking a step back in order to take 3 forward rather than get too fancy.

I know all sorts of stuff sounds interesting, but it really needs to be done for a specific purpose, for a specific length of time, with a specific goal in mind, to remedy a problem that actually exists.

 

[Madcow2]

I wrote this for someone else:
It is very hard to make an argument for needing more or something else when your big lifts are on the rise. In other words, you already have the training goal well in hand, why break the machine trying to fix what isn't broken or stress yourself overthinking it. Best case scenario, you find something else that also works and does the same thing.

So from a practical standpoint, don't change anything that is steadily working. If you don't mind giving up some time and efficiency, possibly blowing something up, then yeah it's fun to tinker sometimes.

 

[mm107]

I wrote this for someone else:
It is very hard to make an argument for needing more or something else when your big lifts are on the rise. In other words, you already have the training goal well in hand, why break the machine trying to fix what isn't broken or stress yourself overthinking it. Best case scenario, you find something else that also works and does the same thing.

So from a practical standpoint, don't change anything that is steadily working. If you don't mind giving up some time and efficiency, possibly blowing something up, then yeah it's fun to tinker sometimes.

I know u guys are all right...Proto/BigT/Madcow Im just overthinkin. and once again thank you for slapping that shit out of me lol

 

[fortunatesun]

Heh, heh. You guys have really ambushed MM in his own thread here. Maybe this whole thing isn't as complicated as you're making it out to be.

What are the issues? First, how to acheive speed and hypertrophy in the same cycle. This is simple proto. You've done (8-10) x 3 for speed. Now you have the rest of your workout for hypertrophy. Instead of speed you can do this with maximum effort or 5x5 as well.
Multitasking on lifts: It's not a lift A or lift B scenario. Deadlift off a platform is still bio-mechanically a deadlift. All you've done is add a nonstandard difficulty factor. Instead of increasing weight you've changed the center of gravity. People do this all the time- flat bench, incline, decline; press seated or standing; varying your grip width- it's a long list. There would be an issue if his basic DL isn't solid yet. But if he feels comfortable pulling the weight then why not hone in on the weakness? When a pitcher practices throwing the ball he'll use a heavier ball, then a lighter ball. He's not confusing himself, he's adding various difficulties to arrive at the end quicker.
Then there's the don't start tampering with success argument, which is a good one. Is this true 100% of the time? I'm not convinced that it is. How do you know making some modifications will result in inefficiency unless you've tried them yourself? How can you state categorically that your algorithm for success takes precedence over MM's intuitive understanding of the state of his training and his ability to draw usefull conclusions from this understanding?
And really, there's nothing drastic in MM's revisions. Pushing against band tension is still basic compound movement. A box squat is still a squat except you've deloaded the weight at the bottom. To my way of thinking, his may be the desirable option. There's all kinds of issues and goals one can consider. Does sticking to 4-5 exercises day in and day out allow for more complete strength or muscular development than occaisionally doing variations of those same exercises? Or the groove you wear in your CNS, tendons, and joints that never have the chance to do anything different? And of course the psychological factor of turning your gym into an assembly line instead of a place to learn and be creative. Even if you arrive at your destination incrementally quicker that way will it have been worth it?

I'm not saying your arguments are wrong. But MM's idea isn't necessarilly wrong either. I think you can give him partial credit until you actually find out what his results are.