Ballistic training?

[KillahBee]

read an article in M&F (I know, may god strike me dead!) on this type of training. very interesting. seems like a good way for athletes to train, but also seems like a good way to get hurt. anyone with experience?

 

[wnt2bBeast]

what exactly is it? judging from the title is it to move the weight as fast as possible?

 

[crew9]

what exactly is it? judging from the title is it to move the weight as fast as possible?

My guess is controlled drops then exploding up.

 

[KillahBee]

pretty much. it is used mostly for the olympic lifts (explosive movements) where there is actually a moment where the weights leave your hand.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

pretty much. it is used mostly for the olympic lifts (explosive movements) where there is actually a moment where the weights leave your hand.

wow M&f had an article about oly lifting??? lol im shocked.. generally that is how i lift controlled (not slow but not totally demphasized) negative and an explosive positive..tempo is very important..its most obvious on bench..i hold my hands over my eyes the way some poeple bench..the negative is totally out of control it looks as if the weight is going to crash donw on them..

 

[Illuminati]

pretty much. it is used mostly for the olympic lifts (explosive movements) where there is actually a moment where the weights leave your hand.

could you post some more info on it?

 

[KillahBee]

could you post some more info on it?

http://www.intense-training.com/archive/t-13877.html

 

[KillahBee]

http://www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/mannieexplosion.html

 

[coolcolj]

Lol

 

[KillahBee]

Lol

c'mon bro - you know about this stuff. you gotta have more to say than that.

 

[coolcolj]

What would you like to know?

It's safe if you prepare for them properly.
The idea behind them is to teach the body to absorb more force. More force absorbtion equal more force and power output. More force output = stronger. Stronger = potential for more muscle mass etc

a nice quote from DB Hammer that goes into this

Another intriguing concept here is most athletes errantly try to raise performance by simply getting stronger. I'm sure you've heard this one before:

"Hey coach, how do I get better?"

"Easy...get stronger!"

That's bullshit! Even though the strength training approach may help them increase their force absorption potential, especially in terms of being able to lower heavy weights under control, it's only when you increase your ability to absorb more power will you realize the greatest gains in your power production development! So much for your cut and dry powerlifting and/or bodybuilding routine, huh? What may interest you bodybuilders and powerlifters, however, is that as your power production values go up then your hypertrophy potential goes through the roof. Once you capture this hypertrophy potential then you will have raised your strength threshold, once again, setting a new stone for power development. That's one you're sure to hear regurgitated by all of my copy-cat coaches out there!

As you can see, it's nothing more than a big fat cycle of getting stronger to get more powerful to get bigger so that you can get stronger which feeds into more power development! (whew…that sucked the air out of me!)

But hold the press! Before you jump the gun let's see why the application of this merry-go-round process shouldn't be carried out as “color by number" as it may sound. In fact, let's take a look at how and why we don't even "strength train" to make our athletes the best they can become!


Strength Training Problems
The problem comes from the adaptability of your nervous system in respect to strength development methods. Teach it to strain and it strains. Teach it to fire and release and it will quickly achieve peak-twitch and just as rapidly release muscle tension, exactly as you conditioned it to respond. But the loophole is that strength work decreases the rate at which your muscles can activate peak tension and prolongs the duration to which they hold onto peak tension. Why is this a problem? In short, your body will be slow to react and your injury potential will be as high as Snoop Dogg (that's right, I said it!).


Let’s say you are a baseball player and you have .30 seconds from the time the ball leaves the pitchers hand to the time it reaches your contact zone (reaction time equates to about a 90 mph fastball). Through practice you can read the pitcher’s release point to know if it’s going to be a ball or strike almost instantaneously. In other words, you don’t have to burn .20 seconds of your available .30 seconds to read and recognize the pitch- which is how long it generally takes random test subjects to respond in randomized scientific settings that guage visual reaction times. Anyways, being able to optimize your feedforward and feedback mechanisms through actual participation of sport (hmm, that's a novel concept of late) means you have a bit more time to respond. But let’s say that it still takes you .10 seconds to recognize the pitch type and location. That gives you .20 seconds to get the bat head on the ball. If you’ve been performing a bunch of reactive work then your neuro-muscular system can be conditioned to achieve peak twitch of your muscle fibers in .20 seconds- no problem! But if you’ve been focusing on strength work then you may actually de-condition your system to the point that you’re recruiting your muscles slower, delaying peak-twitch activation, and increasing the decay of tension-release. For all of you still trying to pay attention, this means "big problem!" In this case you can see that it doesn’t matter that you are stronger because your explosive-power numbers are going to be down on the playing field! In fact, that's all that really matters. Just ask any precision-skill athlete, especially a power-precision athlete, nothing sucks worse then telling your body what to do but it’s too slow to respond.


Another major problem with strength work is it will teach your system to hold onto tension too long. As a sprinter this can be dangerous. As you “spring” down the track you don’t want to be wasting energy because your muscles won't relax when they need to relax because this will cause you to (a) hit a wall towards the end of the race and (b) produce less power per positive and negative contraction stroke (remember what we said about the relationship between power absorption and power production). A simple way to remember this concept is to know that your reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than a state of tension. One last point about retaining the strength of contraction too long is the poor release of tension has been shown to lead to muscle strains, such as hamstrings pulls.

 

[cwick0]

Ive done these for chest before, also WalkingBeast does them for chest too.

 

[KillahBee]

What would you like to know?

It's safe if you prepare for them properly.
The idea behind them is to teach the body to absorb more force. More force absorbtion equal more force and power output. More force output = stronger. Stronger = potential for more muscle mass etc

a nice quote from DB Hammer that goes into this

Good read. The article I read spoke mainly about the type of training where the weight actually leaves your hand.

 

[cwick0]

This is what the Ram's safety Adam Archiletta (spelling isnt correct) did in college to be able to make it to the pros.

 

[coolcolj]

Good read. The article I read spoke mainly about the type of training where the weight actually leaves your hand.

It's related - same thing

what you call neuro-magnitude methods - bench throws, plyo pushups, depth jumps, jump squats etc

the propulsion or concentric when the object leaves your hand or body leaves the floor isn't the most important part, it's where your reverse the load that's important. That's where the power is generated to allow you to propel the object. If you can't absorb the force from the reversal, you will generate crap all power. Try do a long jump from a flat out sprint and you will see what I mean. You could probbaly jump further from a standing start
But once you can absorb the force from the runnup you should be able to jump further like elite long jumpers do.

You basicly want to dive bomb the loads absorb the force and explode. Slow down and fast up doesn't work. Off course this requires preparation to train like this or else you will get hurt

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Slow down and fast up doesn't work. [/QUOTE

is this a general statement or is this specific to your training?

 

[coolcolj]

If your trying to improve power then yes

fast down, fast up = power
Try and jump high by going down slow - won't work so well does it?

 

[wnt2bBeast]

If your trying to improve power then yes

fast down, fast up = power
Try and jump high by going down slow - won't work so well does it?

my vertical jump isnt so good lol so your saying you keep the same tempo in the positive and negative..i dont have a slow negative ( but the weight is controlled) but my positive is faster on just about all my lifts..

 

[coolcolj]

Well I wouldn't worry about tempo so much, do whatever it takes to make the weight move faster on the way up, that will usually mean going down faster. But if its too fast you body may not be able to absorb the force and thus end up slower at the reversal point. Until you increase its force absorbtion ability which requires special training - ie ballistic training and and absortion drops (ie alttitude drops and depth jumps etc)

But for BB'er purposes none of these matters as much. But IMO for the natural BB'er some of this stuff can make him put on more muscle because he will be stronger and can use more weight in his exercises and thus help him get bigger

It's all about training the CNS, something many people forget. All they think about is muscles, but the CNS fires the msucles...

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

from what i studied of ballistics, you can capitolize on the stretch reflex to gain more power and speed. going down slow and pushing up fast doesnt use that reflex. your muscles might be stretched, but its the speed that they are elongating that activates the stretch reflex. this is why ballistic stretching has been called a no-no. the bouncing produces contractions that counteract the goal of relaxed and long muscles. the faster the stretch of a muscle, the more power the stretch reflex causes to avoid muscle damage from hyperelongation. this reflex can be controlled, just like when you put your hand on a hot stove. if you want to keep your hand there- you will. if you want to avoid getting burned you use that instant "jolt" to move that ass!