Back Day - What Exercise First: Deadlifts or Pullups?

[neoguri]

On back days, which exercise do you work first - Deadlifts or Pullups?

I have been deadlifting first because they are much more taxing, currently doing 225 x 5 on my last set.

I do pullups next, but being fatigued from heavy deadlifting, I feel like my pullup progress suffers. I really want to improve my pullup numbers, right now i can get 8 on my first set and 5 on my second.

My goal is to be able to do weighted pullups (heavy low rep pullups to blast my lats). I'm waiting till I can do 10 before adding weight.

So should I pullup first rather than deadlift, but then my deadlift will suffer... what should i do? what do you?

 

[enigma4dub]

Your pull ups will suffer if you dead first. but thats ok the pull ups are an accessory. over time you will be conditioned to make progress in the pull ups after deading first.
Personally i am running a df 5x5 right now so on wednesday i dead before push press. followed by weighted pull ups.
Another thing to consider is doing your pullups seperately on a different day and getting some frequency on your other lifts too .Unless you are married to the bodybuilder split. check out the training vault for lots of training info on progess and frequency

 

[neoguri]

what do u mean? what's a bodybuilder split and why do u hold them in ill-regard? i do chest, rest, legs, rest, back, rest, delts&abs, rest. does that qualify?

i have all the core compound movements. squats, deadlifts, benchpress, military press, pullups, rows, dips...

this is no good?

 

[enigma4dub]

what do u mean? what's a bodybuilder split and why do u hold them in ill-regard? i do chest, rest, legs, rest, back, rest, delts&abs, rest. does that qualify?

i have all the core compound movements. squats, deadlifts, benchpress, military press, pullups, rows, dips...

this is no good?

a bodybuilder split is just as you described, training a bodypart once a week.
something that is followed by a lot of members here, and with great success i might add, is a training theory that has you trainig these compound lifts with greater frequency.
example
monday: squat bench row
wednesday: squat deadlift ohp chins
friday: squat bench row
as to why the split is held in disregard ... well there are other members who can better articulate this than me, but here goes. there is nothing sound about any of the idealogy that has you isolating your muscles once a week with a barage of excercises, without any sort of organization or thought of progress over a period of time.

 

[neoguri]

The reason I have split my muscles group this way, over this many days, is so I can hit each muscle group as hard as possible.

Without the rest I'm giving each group before hitting them again, I am not able to make much progress (increase weight and/or reps), as I am still sore/tired. I go pretty heavy and target 5 reps for my last set, having pyramided weights. I keep a log and I've been topping each previous workout.

I would consider your higher frequency workout, but I am still sore for several days (3-4 days each after squatting and deadlifting) and couldnt imagine doing them and other large compond exercises at any higher frequency/ multiple times a week. It wouldn't be possible with my soreness level and slow recovery speed.


As an aside, what is the best type of row? bentover barbell? one arm db? t-bar?

 

[ZGzaZ]

The reason I have split my muscles group this way, over this many days, is so I can hit each muscle group as hard as possible.

Without the rest I'm giving each group before hitting them again, I am not able to make much progress (increase weight and/or reps), as I am still sore/tired. I go pretty heavy and target 5 reps for my last set, having pyramided weights. I keep a log and I've been topping each previous workout.

I would consider your higher frequency workout, but I am still sore for several days (3-4 days each after squatting and deadlifting) and couldnt imagine doing them and other large compond exercises at any higher frequency/ multiple times a week. It wouldn't be possible with my soreness level and slow recovery speed.


As an aside, what is the best type of row? bentover barbell? one arm db? t-bar?

By doing them 3x a week, your body grows more accustomed to them, and the soreness doesnt happen as much. The reason you are so sore IS BECAUSE you only do them 1 time a week. Your body learns to recover faster, and you will make much faster progress by doing them multiple times a week. BTW, you only deadlifts 1x a week, squats are 3x a week.

 

[neoguri]

interesting... so i should try this workout the enigma recommended?
monday: squat bench row
wednesday: squat deadlift ohp chins
friday: squat bench row

and should I do a 5x5 for each of these (same weight for 5 sets for 5 reps each)? increasing the weight the next time only if get all 5x5?

what about incline db press, weighted pullups, weighted dips, and barbell curls?

should i invest in some prohormones? can you guys recommend a good one for a first-timer? pheraplex? I am only taking a multi-vitamin, creatine, and glutamine. eating big (lots of protein) and sleeping plenty.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Best type of row... stick to 90* Bent over Barbell.

Prohormones... no you shouldn't invest in them. Buy more steak and eat more real food You'll grow plenty if you eat as much as you need to.

Google or ... read the Newbie sticky at the top of the training forum... Bill Starr 5x5 ... Intermediate version would be a good start...

What are your stats? and lifting experience?

 

[pitbullrocco]

^

what he said...........

in the intermediate version, i believe you will be increasing the weights on each set in the 5x5.

here's a good website (i don't think this is illegal):
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/

read all of it.

if you have been doing isolation for a while now, you should see great results switching over to this split for 6 or more weeks

 

[neoguri]

Been doing this...

Day 1: Chest
Barbell Bench Press
95 x 10
135 x 8
185 x 6
205 x4

DB Incline Bench Press
55s x 6
65s x 6
75s x 3

Dips to failure
14, 12, 11

Pec Deck
100 x 8
120 x 8
140 x 6

- Day 2: rest day -

Day 3: Legs
Barbell Squats
95 x 10
135 x 8
185 x 8
225 x 6
235 x 3

Leg Press
180 x 8
270 x 8
360 x 6
410 x 3

Plate loaded knee curls
45 x 8
65 x 8
85 x 8
95 x 6

- Day 4: rest day -

Day 5: Back / Biceps
Deadlifts
95 x 10
135 x 8
185 x 8
225 x 6

Widegrip Pullups to failure
8, 5, 3

Widegrip Lat pulldowns
120 x 8
140 x 8
160 x 4

T Bar Rows
35 x 8
45 x 8
55 x 6

Standing Barbell Curls (i think i have disproportiately weak/small biceps)
45 x 8
55 x 6
65 x 4

Standing Alternating DB Curls
15s x 10
20s x 8
20s x 6

- Day 6: rest day -

Day 7: Delts / Abs
Seated DB Press
30s x 10
50s x 8
60s x 6
70s x 4

Standing barbell presses
50 x 18
60 x 15
75 x 12

Alternating side DB raises
20 x 10
20 x 10
20 x 8

Weighted Decline situps
0 x 10
10 x 10
25 x 8

Weighted Crunch Machine
80 x 10
100 x 10
120 x 10
140 x 8

- Day 8: rest day before starting over

 

[enigma4dub]

do yourself the biggest favor possible read madcows sight especially the training primer. then read it again over time. i also recomend the original thread it is huge but ive read it through a few times. any question you can conceivably have will be answered and if you still have questions there are great people on this board to answer anything else

edit: also the example i gave is what i am doing, and not what i was recomending for you.

 

[boss_]

On back days, which exercise do you work first - Deadlifts or Pullups?

I have been deadlifting first because they are much more taxing, currently doing 225 x 5 on my last set.

I do pullups next, but being fatigued from heavy deadlifting, I feel like my pullup progress suffers. I really want to improve my pullup numbers, right now i can get 8 on my first set and 5 on my second.

My goal is to be able to do weighted pullups (heavy low rep pullups to blast my lats). I'm waiting till I can do 10 before adding weight.

So should I pullup first rather than deadlift, but then my deadlift will suffer... what should i do? what do you?

I never deadlift on "back" day. I consider DL's more of a "lower body day" exercise.

Anyway, if you want to increase your pull-ups, you have to do a shitload of pull-ups. Get a jumpstretch band (or whatever) and use it for assistance once you are too fatigued to continue with bodyweight. Also heavy rows of all kinds.

 

[medical]

I never deadlift on "back" day. I consider DL's more of a "lower body day" exercise.

Anyway, if you want to increase your pull-ups, you have to do a shitload of pull-ups. Get a jumpstretch band (or whatever) and use it for assistance once you are too fatigued to continue with bodyweight. Also heavy rows of all kinds.

I also DL on leg days.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

I also DL on leg days.

Every day is Leg Day

 

[perp69]

My first thought is if what you are doing is working for you (gaining size or upping the weight on the bar every workout) then don't fuck with it. Deads are more important than pullups IMO so I would do those first and then maybe do the pullups last.

However, if you are looking to change your workout then you might want to read up on the 5x5 and give it a try. I prefer the 5x5 like many on here because that is what I have always used and always make great progress with. Yes, you are effectively working out your entire body three times a week with the 5x5 but that is the beauty of it. You make progress 3 times as fast. You are also getting more rest due to not working out 5-6 days a week and we all know that is when muscle is made.

Perp

 

[neoguri]

wow ok lots of advocates of the 5x5 really make me want to try it. i have 3 main concerns. Please tell me if they are ridiculous, misinformed, and/or irrelevant.

1. frequency and soreness - i understand the body will adapt, but will my body really recover quick enough to squat every other day? currently it takes me about 4 days to fully recover from leg day. and i am reluctant to have heavy squats and heavy deadlifts on the same day.

2. missing exercises/symmetry - without pullups will I get full development in my lats? no dips? no hamstring curls? no arms (i guess triceps get hit through bench and ohp, while biceps get worked through rows)?

3. ugliness - will this routine develop my muscles to make me look like a tree? thicker than I am wide? i can't really describe what I mean, but I bet you guys know what I am trying to say... just an ugly physique? bulky? stocky? UGRY?

I want to be stronger and bigger than the "other guy", but also better looking and get the girl over the "other guy" too, know what i mean?

 

[SgtSlaughter]

wow ok lots of advocates of the 5x5 really make me want to try it. i have 3 main concerns. Please tell me if they are ridiculous, misinformed, and/or irrelevant.
1. frequency and soreness - i understand the body will adapt, but will my body really recover quick enough to squat every other day? currently it takes me about 4 days to fully recover from leg day. and i am reluctant to have heavy squats and heavy deadlifts on the same day.
2. missing exercises/symmetry - without pullups will I get full development in my lats? no dips? no hamstring curls? no arms (i guess triceps get hit through bench and ohp, while biceps get worked through rows)?
3. ugliness - will this routine develop my muscles to make me look like a tree? thicker than I am wide? i can't really describe what I mean, but I bet you guys know what I am trying to say... just an ugly physique? bulky? stocky? UGRY?
I want to be stronger and bigger than the "other guy", but also better looking and get the girl over the "other guy" too, know what i mean?

Mostly, they are ridiculous, lol.

1. Your legs will NOT even be sore anymore by squating 3x a week... They may be sore for the first couple weeks... but after that it will not be like before one bit... i used to squat pretty much once a month and it immobilized me, i know what you mean.

Heavy squats and Deads are NOT on the same day... that's light squat day if it's the Bill Starr 5x5 Intermediate version.

2. You have no idea what full development is if you don't do rows.

3. There's a difference between eating enough calories to grow and plain eating a shitload and getting sloppy... that's done in the kitchen.

4. Ultimately what will keep you dedicated is doing this for yourself not do be bigger than the "other guy."

Best wishes

 

[enigma4dub]

Another thing that should be noted. its not the 5x5 its the idealogy behind it it. It is not the end all but a teacher for a better way.

Also it is recomended you run the program as is the first time. However, as you become better at doing compound full body lifts you can add accesories. For example I am running the advanced version of the 5x5, i have 3x10 of standing curls on mon and dips on friday.

It is important to know that the excercise selection in the 5x5 are the ones that are gonna pack on the most muscle in the most efficent means necessary. afterward you can "tweak" your physique.

 

[neoguri]

i am going to do starr 5x5 intermediate, but without pullups will I still get full development in my lats?

and i'm not really doing this for anyone other than me.

now, will i get ugly?

 

[enigma4dub]

You really need to to do some research. please read madcows site and the training primer before you post more questions. there really is so much to digest.
As for your question it realy is a misguided question which is why i am directing you to the site. the body does a good job of balancing itself out. so the idea of shaping your muscles and all is really a bunch of bs. in other words run the program, pack on some muscle, and at the end, if you feel there is something lacking in your physique address it then.
So no your physique wont turn "ugly" provided the calories are somewhat clean.

NOW GO READ MADCOWS SITE!! LOL

 

[SgtSlaughter]

i am going to do starr 5x5 intermediate, but without pullups will I still get full development in my lats?
and i'm not really doing this for anyone other than me.
now, will i get ugly?

lol... i already stated your questions were ridiculous!! What more do you want?

We're not making money by "selling" you on any type of training.

Proper strength training works... period... both functionally and aestetically if the right foods are eaten in the right amounts.

Research more if you need more reinforcement.

 

[neoguri]

i'm reading the madcow and working with the spreadsheet. what do i do in the gym when i need 1 or 2 lbers?

 

[perp69]

Read the stickies. I do weighted pullups on 5x5. They are done on wed as my last lift-1st light squats (volume phase), deads, OHP, then pullups last. As far as soreness, I have been doing this program for about 2 years now and can't remember the last time I got sore afterwards. I recently took 2 weeks off and didn't get sore when I started back. Since doing this program my max lifts have hit new records every time. Currently my Oly squat is 465, OHP is 245, bench is 315, row is 335, deads 525 and expect I will surpass those again this time around.

You can do other accessory exercises if you feel up to it but they are not really the focus of the program. Just starting I would stick to the program as written until you get use to it.

Right now I do abs and calves twice a week in addition to the 5x5. If I do other accessory lifts I try to spread them out because you can get really fatigued. I don't sweat it if I miss em due to time or not feeling it that day because they are extra anyway. Sometimes I like to add dips on one day, and bis on another.

Good luck and keep a journal,
Perp

 

[neoguri]

Thanks perp. I am sold, especially looking at your impressive numbers. Could you give me a reference point, and tell me what they were before you started the 5x5? and a year ago?

So I will start this on monday.
I am thinking of doing your variation with the overhead press and weighted pullups on wednesdays as the 3rd and 4th exercise.

are the exercises listed as "assistance" in Bill Starr's intermediate spreadsheet, extra accessory lifts? not mandatory?

For example on Friday I see:
Assistance
3 Sets of Weighted Dips x 5-8 reps <--- why arent these 5x5?
3 Sets of Barbell Curls x 8 reps
3 Sets of Triceps Extensions x 8 reps

 

[Look its Puck]

It really is a simple formula. Eat big, lift big, get big. Simple thermodynamics, boys.

The more you put into your diet, i.e. the better foods that you eat, ideally you will have leaner results. But your body needs an excess amount of calories in order for it to grow. Anything less, and you'll shrink. Period. You need to get used to eating all the time. I eat 6 times a day, but it can very well get up to 7 times a day. You'll notice as soon as you start eating the proper amount of calories, then and only then will get you larger.

Compounds exercises like squats and deadlifts are found in the 5x5, and the 5x5 is a true and tried method to gain strength and size, but only if the diet compliments it.

Happy lifting..
-Steve

 

[neoguri]

if i 5x5 weighted dips on friday, while following bill starr's intermediate program, will this affect my monday workout?

 

[neoguri]

switching to the 5x5 after having done body splits, i expect to be very sore after my first full body workout on monday.

now should i follow through and workout on wednesday no matter how sore? or wait till i recover?

I plan to do a variation of the Starr 5x5:
Mon: squat, bench, row (assistance weighted abs and weighted hypers)
Weds: squat, overheadpress, deadlift, weighted pullups (situps)
Fri: squat, bench, row, weighted dips (barbell curls / tricep ext)

sounds good?

 

[enigma4dub]

switching to the 5x5 after having done body splits, i expect to be very sore after my first full body workout on monday.

now should i follow through and workout on wednesday no matter how sore? or wait till i recover?

I plan to do a variation of the Starr 5x5:
Mon: squat, bench, row (assistance weighted abs and weighted hypers)
Weds: squat, overheadpress, deadlift, weighted pullups (situps)
Fri: squat, bench, row, weighted dips (barbell curls / tricep ext)

sounds good?

thats fine it was recomended you try the beginer or intermediate but if you are inisisting on doing the advanced that fine as well. again make sure you are conservative with the progression, continue reading madcows sight and the archive here. the more you read the more you will understand. all of the questions you have asked so far were available with a little bit of research.
Good luck with the program!

 

[enigma4dub]

in regards to acclimating yourself to this type of training, just work through the sorenes , it will be gone soon enough.

 

[perp69]

Thanks perp. I am sold, especially looking at your impressive numbers. Could you give me a reference point, and tell me what they were before you started the 5x5? and a year ago?

So I will start this on monday.
I am thinking of doing your variation with the overhead press and weighted pullups on wednesdays as the 3rd and 4th exercise.

are the exercises listed as "assistance" in Bill Starr's intermediate spreadsheet, extra accessory lifts? not mandatory?

For example on Friday I see:
Assistance
3 Sets of Weighted Dips x 5-8 reps <--- why arent these 5x5?
3 Sets of Barbell Curls x 8 reps
3 Sets of Triceps Extensions x 8 reps

When I first started back lifting at the end of 2004 I weighed 225 and now sit at 205 and have been as low as 173. Lifts were shitty when I first started something like 185 bench, 275 squat, deads 295, rows 155. Great thing about this program is that even when I cut weight I didn't even loose much strength at all. There is lots of good info on this program on several sites like Meso, Elitefitness.

If I were you I would stick with the basic layout for the novice single factor program when just starting until you get a feel for it. If you read the stickies on those sites you will see that there is a beginner single factor type program and a more advanced dual factor with deload periods. This program can easily wear you out without the accessory stuff so be careful with that. I have used incline bench and dips before in place of flat bench on one of the bench days. The main thing is don't fuck with the squats because that is what the program is focused around.

I would highly suggest you keep a written log of your lifting (don't really see how you can't do it without it) and your diet.

Perp

 

[Fitness Nut]

switching to the 5x5 after having done body splits, i expect to be very sore after my first full body workout on monday.

now should i follow through and workout on wednesday no matter how sore? or wait till i recover?

I plan to do a variation of the Starr 5x5:
Mon: squat, bench, row (assistance weighted abs and weighted hypers)
Weds: squat, overheadpress, deadlift, weighted pullups (situps)
Fri: squat, bench, row, weighted dips (barbell curls / tricep ext)

sounds good?

With proper diet, your body only needs about 48 hours to recover. You may still be sore, but the more you work through it, the quicker it will go away.

Also, if you feel like you need something supplemental for your lats, try some lat shrugs. They do wonders.

 

[neoguri]

this is the intermediate (i've only added the pullups to weds)... are the assistance exercises supposed to be worked only for advanced?