Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[mattcanning99]

Originally posted by musclebrains {DISCLAIMER: edited my matt}
Do you really believe this? You must be a young, ignorant, useless and incredibly dumb fuck

im shocked with your insults and petty remarks

seriously tho, at least if youre going to debate stay on topic here...yeah, we could go into all of the other world tragedies right now, but that's not the topic.

also, you probably didnt read my above posts posted prior to that one, where i specifically mentioned not being pro anything because im still deciding at the moment, and i did mention that in my mind there is a difference between a collection of cells and a human life with cognitive functions.

when does a fetus become a human?

when does a group of people become a crowd?

when does a falling grain of sand become a heap?

unfortunately, you cannot answer this question fully, but you can give it a range:

10 people or more is a crowd, in the same way a human being with has certainly evolved after a certain point in pregnancy. a child born 2 weeks premature, or even sooner can still survive and become a child, so there certainly is a time when you are committing murder.

to summarize and clarify, i am not frowning on abortions as much as abortions taking place late. if i was religious, and believed in the concept of the soul, maybe i would not feel this way, and would simply oppose all abortions, however, the worst thing in my mind are very late abortions.

so i am more "pro life" if the woman has been pregnant for three months or more, because that is to me a lot more like murder, than something like "the day after pill". not everyone will agree with me, but as i said, i would personally never want a woman to abort our child.

MB - do you agree with partial birth abortions, where the baby is aborted literally seconds before birth?

do you agree with mothers who abort their child after carrying it for 8 months?

clearly you ARE taking a human life at some point, that point however is very sketchy, and that is why i feel that if abortions are going to take place (which i would never personally want to happen, especially if it was my child), they should certainly take place very early on, perhaps in the first trimester.

Destroying a group of unorganized cells is different than taking a human life, for those of you who made that point, i understand.

i personally would never have sex in a situation in which i was not fully willing to accept the responsibilities of the child and was with a woman who felt the same way, and was also using dual methods of birth control. yes, i know that in reality unwanted pregnancies will still occur, but if you think that making abortions illegal will not result in fewer abortions, you are definitely wrong, numbers would drop, and women would probably not want to risk an abortion if it meant "swallowing poison"...think about that for a second...its hard enough to choose to abort to begin with, i guarantee some women would not even think about it if it meant potentially harming themselves.

ideally, in the "perfect world" i would never want to see any abortions taking place, not even the day after pill (but alas, we live in a world of reality and harsh truths). and can you really talk to a person with that attitude, look them in the eyes and tell them they are wrong, and you are offended that they have that attitude? they are supporting the concept of something so beautiful as life. how could anyone ever want a person like that to change their minds? i would never want to see a person aborted. i say again these same points:

(1) abortion is NOT a contraceptive

(2) women and men who do not want to undergo 9 months of stress to produce something so beautiful as a human life should really consider what they are doing and weigh the opportunity costs better.

(3) rape is the only excuse i see as justifying a woman wanting an abortion, seeing as in that case, it was 0% the fault of the woman she was pregnant...

(4) in all other cases, both the man and the woman should be more responsible, and i have no sympathy for the man or the woman going through 9 months of stress. i look at them as very irresponsible people for destroying a life to be.

 

[spentagn]

I see your wife told you to go give yourself a handjob.

No, I said fuck it and went to the gym. Who can handle either after an arm day? Then I went and saw my soon-to-be 82 year-old grandmother. She goes back home tomorrow.

 

[spentagn]

You okay?

Yeah, I'm fine. Thanks for asking. I'm young, on test, and horny as hell. Plus, I just bought some viagra for NYE. But, for the third year in a row, my wife will be having "feminine issues" on that night. I really need to get the people in charge to change this whole thing to the middle of the month.

 

[Frackal]

I am pro-boobies, because I like them.

 

[mattcanning99]

I am pro-boobies, because I like them.

lol, gotta love the way frackal comes into a thread and brings humour to the topic...thanks bro, i was getting chest pains just reading this thread

 

[musclebrains]

MAtt:

First of all, my post quoted you but addressed everyone, as I'm going to do again here. I understand your concern is late-stage abortion, but I don't know what you're coming unglued about.

I can go anywhere I want with a topic. If you feel free to conceptualize life, I can certainly question the very conceptualization of this suffering class of oxymoronically dubbed "unborn children" and I am free to place that class and concern for it against the horizon of suffering in the actual world. Others establish a medical or religious horizon.

I feel especially comfortable using this horizon when you engage in language like "life is beautiful," when I know perfectly well that it is often ugly and full of suffering of proportions that are far more horrific than abortion. Again: It is easy to lament abortion, to decry the suffering of what is out of sight, when you haven't opened your eyes to real suffering, put your hands in the blood and squalor and shit of people dying as innocents because of disease or war. Again: I'm concerned with what's real.

You are quite free to lobby and work to make abortion (late stage or otherwise) illegal. You are also free to comfort yourself with the idea that less abortions will occur, but you will also have to take responisiblity for taking from women a freedom they've had for 30 years and for the suffering that will result because of those who have to become criminals again and risk their health so a particular mainly male vision of the sanctity of life is restored. As for whether women will put themselves at grave risk to end a pregnancy, I think you better do some research.

I do not presume to know when a fetus becomes a sentient creature and so I do not presume to tell women when they can terminate a pregnancy. Science doesn't agree on that. I don't think the law has ever treated abortion as murder, even when it was illegal. My only point is that the fetus belongs to the woman's body. They are in symbiosis. It is not MY place to decide for others what a woman should do. Nor am I going to try to project myself into the situation of terminating a baby "seconds before birth." It sounds dreadful. I suspect it's relatively rare.

I've been through abortions with two women -- my sister-in-law, who had a medical one, and a very close friend many years ago when back-alley abortions were still being done, even though clinics had opened. My sister-in-law fell into a depression of months duration and my friend became deathly ill. Both of these women made decisions that were horrible for them. I have also been through the experience twice with a couple who have had two children by in vitro fertilization. Do you know that when they do this, they harvest several eggs and some of them, though fertilized, die. A surviving embryo might be frozen. It was very depressing to all of us, even when these nameless clusters of cells died.

It may also interest -- or amuse you -- to know that I did a two year internship with the nation's specialist in pre- and perinatal psychology in San Francisco. Which is to say that I have worked with countless women and men during their pregnancy and with children who seemed to have memory of prenatal life. If you want to learn more about the subject go
HERE .

Between my two years of exploring the mystery of prenatal memory and observing the utter importance of good births to a decent life AND watching more than 200 of my friends and acquaintances die in 20 years of horrible horrible horrible deaths AND traveling around the world and seeing poverty and starvation that still wakes me up at night -- all of that has left me with utterly no understanding of life but a deep awe before suffering and a devotion to the Buddhist vow of its relief as it appears before me.

If the "unborn" call you, then work for them. The rest of us may not support you.

 

[smallmovesal]

*standing ovation*

 

[spentagn]

*can't stand ovulation*

 

[musclebrains]

*can't stand ovulation*

LOL...It hardly matters since you can't get laid.

thanks, smalls.

 

[spentagn]

LOL...It hardly matters since you can't get laid.

thanks, smalls.

As most things in life, it's a choice.