An important question about insulin and carbs

[blood_drinker]

Let me make it clear : My goal is to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Drug free.

Not possible? Well, ive been on a 2 month layover and I expect some gains.

My diet:
Week 1
----------------------
No carbs, except Celltech knockoff before and after training (Creatine loading)
2g protein per pound.
Lots of EFAs (olive oil / flax)

Week 2 and onwards
-------------------
70g of dextrose post training will be my only carbs.
2g protein per pound
Lots of EFAs

Now my question is, why do we need carbs during a bulk? If its to maintain hardness and keep glycogen levels filled, why wont 70g of dextrose do post training? Is it because you gain muscle throughout the day and you have to elevate insulin levels constantly? If so, then why not take dextrose with all of your meals (I know its pushing it, but ideally?) Surely id gain lots of fat, but lots of muscle too.

After that question, what do you think of the diet? Do you think it will work? Creatine and dextrose before and after for week one, and week 2 onwards dextrose and creatine after?

Obviously Id include whey in my postworkout along with the cell tech knockoff (creatine + 70g dextrose + ala) and keep low carbs.
Would this diet work for bulking and losing fat (steady both ways is what I want).

Remember, Im drug free.
What do you guys say?
PS. Dont give me the you cant do it crap. Many people have claimed to have done it namely dabigthinka...

If anyone can help me out, im in need of urgent help, all I want is good helping answers.

Thanks bros, much appreciated.
bloodPPS. Im gonna make sure that the diet is in fact a diet, meaning that my cals will be under maintenance. Dabigthinka, youve done this, if youre out there give me your thoughts.
Anyone knowledgeable help me out, controversial topic (the gaining muscle and losing fat) here.
I know its 2 very different questions, but hey dont flame im human.

 

[blood_drinker]

Gotta bump this
Cmon guys if you know the answer, hit me back!

 

[Silverback316]

By looking at the pic in your avatar I think you are on the right track bro.

 

[Beezers]

I'll be perfectly honest. Unless you just started training yeterday your goal is unrealistic. You will not lose bodyfat and simultaneously gain muscle while natural. Physiology just doesn't work that way. Certain hormones exibit lipolytic effects as well as providing a major boost to the metabolism and this is why some(not all) people can loose a little bit of fat while putting on muscle mass with a hypercaloric diet. In a natural environment these hormone levels aren't conducive or adequate to initiate this process. You need to pick one goal....otherwise you're only going to be chasing your tail in circles.

Carbs are required to replenish muscle glycogen which in itself signals an anabolic effect on muscle cells. 70g of carbs is not enough to replenish muscle glycogen following a workout. A lot of that glucose will go to other fuctions of the body so you're not really providing your muscles with 70g of carbs. You need to keep carbs high while bulking to maintain muscle glycogen, and stimulate an anabolic/anti-catabolic environment. When insulin is present ot turns off, or significantly slows down muscle protein degredation and turns on the glycogen synthase enzyme...responsible for making muscle glycogen.

Dextrose before a workout is not a good idea. Dextrose is a very hogh GI carb and as such will cause a dramatic release in insulin and will be cleared from the blood very rapidly. This will leave you tired and possibly hypoglycemic shortly into your workout. You want low GI carbs at this time to provide a slow, steady release of glucose for the muscles to use during training.


The reason people think they are loosing fat when gaining muscle is because when the amount of lean body mass increases while the amount of fat mass stays the same the ratio is altered in favor of LBM and the percentage of fat mass that is bodyweight is changed, though the actual amount of fat isn't. Also, gaining msucle will make one look leaner because muscle will become more visable as they get larger. This will make cuts more apparant.

If you are past the begining stages of training you body needs sufficient resources to manufacture new muscle tissue. This means consuming more calories than your daily metabolic process uses. Loosing bodyfat requires induced "starvation". Now obviously you aren't starving yourself, but you have to give the bosy a reason to tap into the "reserve" fuel system(fat). This requires that calories be below the metabolic process. People who just start training have relatively little muscle mass to begin with and as such it doesn't require much for them to grow. Once you accumulate a reasonable amount of muscle(usually 6 months to a year of training) your body has to actually work to compensate for the overload stimulus of weight training. This requires an excess of calories. If your cals are under maintnance you will not gain muscle mass. In fact you likely will losse some.

 

[WannaImpress]

I'll be perfectly honest. Unless you just started training yeterday your goal is unrealistic. You will not lose bodyfat and simultaneously gain muscle while natural. Physiology just doesn't work that way. Certain hormones exibit lipolytic effects as well as providing a major boost to the metabolism and this is why some(not all) people can loose a little bit of fat while putting on muscle mass with a hypercaloric diet. In a natural environment these hormone levels aren't conducive or adequate to initiate this process. You need to pick one goal....otherwise you're only going to be chasing your tail in circles.

Carbs are required to replenish muscle glycogen which in itself signals an anabolic effect on muscle cells. 70g of carbs is not enough to replenish muscle glycogen following a workout. A lot of that glucose will go to other fuctions of the body so you're not really providing your muscles with 70g of carbs. You need to keep carbs high while bulking to maintain muscle glycogen, and stimulate an anabolic/anti-catabolic environment. When insulin is present ot turns off, or significantly slows down muscle protein degredation and turns on the glycogen synthase enzyme...responsible for making muscle glycogen.

Dextrose before a workout is not a good idea. Dextrose is a very hogh GI carb and as such will cause a dramatic release in insulin and will be cleared from the blood very rapidly. This will leave you tired and possibly hypoglycemic shortly into your workout. You want low GI carbs at this time to provide a slow, steady release of glucose for the muscles to use during training.


The reason people think they are loosing fat when gaining muscle is because when the amount of lean body mass increases while the amount of fat mass stays the same the ratio is altered in favor of LBM and the percentage of fat mass that is bodyweight is changed, though the actual amount of fat isn't. Also, gaining msucle will make one look leaner because muscle will become more visable as they get larger. This will make cuts more apparant.

If you are past the begining stages of training you body needs sufficient resources to manufacture new muscle tissue. This means consuming more calories than your daily metabolic process uses. Loosing bodyfat requires induced "starvation". Now obviously you aren't starving yourself, but you have to give the bosy a reason to tap into the "reserve" fuel system(fat). This requires that calories be below the metabolic process. People who just start training have relatively little muscle mass to begin with and as such it doesn't require much for them to grow. Once you accumulate a reasonable amount of muscle(usually 6 months to a year of training) your body has to actually work to compensate for the overload stimulus of weight training. This requires an excess of calories. If your cals are under maintnance you will not gain muscle mass. In fact you likely will losse some.

Beezers, excellent reply. Good Read!

 

[nautica]

Very good response Beezers.

Nautica

 

[serge]

I'll be perfectly honest. Unless you just started training yeterday your goal is unrealistic. You will not lose bodyfat and simultaneously gain muscle while natural. Physiology just doesn't work that way. Certain hormones exibit lipolytic effects as well as providing a major boost to the metabolism and this is why some(not all) people can loose a little bit of fat while putting on muscle mass with a hypercaloric diet. In a natural environment these hormone levels aren't conducive or adequate to initiate this process. You need to pick one goal....otherwise you're only going to be chasing your tail in circles.

Carbs are required to replenish muscle glycogen which in itself signals an anabolic effect on muscle cells. 70g of carbs is not enough to replenish muscle glycogen following a workout. A lot of that glucose will go to other fuctions of the body so you're not really providing your muscles with 70g of carbs. You need to keep carbs high while bulking to maintain muscle glycogen, and stimulate an anabolic/anti-catabolic environment. When insulin is present ot turns off, or significantly slows down muscle protein degredation and turns on the glycogen synthase enzyme...responsible for making muscle glycogen.

Dextrose before a workout is not a good idea. Dextrose is a very hogh GI carb and as such will cause a dramatic release in insulin and will be cleared from the blood very rapidly. This will leave you tired and possibly hypoglycemic shortly into your workout. You want low GI carbs at this time to provide a slow, steady release of glucose for the muscles to use during training.


The reason people think they are loosing fat when gaining muscle is because when the amount of lean body mass increases while the amount of fat mass stays the same the ratio is altered in favor of LBM and the percentage of fat mass that is bodyweight is changed, though the actual amount of fat isn't. Also, gaining msucle will make one look leaner because muscle will become more visable as they get larger. This will make cuts more apparant.

If you are past the begining stages of training you body needs sufficient resources to manufacture new muscle tissue. This means consuming more calories than your daily metabolic process uses. Loosing bodyfat requires induced "starvation". Now obviously you aren't starving yourself, but you have to give the bosy a reason to tap into the "reserve" fuel system(fat). This requires that calories be below the metabolic process. People who just start training have relatively little muscle mass to begin with and as such it doesn't require much for them to grow. Once you accumulate a reasonable amount of muscle(usually 6 months to a year of training) your body has to actually work to compensate for the overload stimulus of weight training. This requires an excess of calories. If your cals are under maintnance you will not gain muscle mass. In fact you likely will losse some.

Beez, we should make a permenent sticky about this, because this is just getting old, answering the same question every day, personally i dont think any1 here has a goal to gain muscle along with fat, and who WOULD NOT WANT TO LOOSE FAT AND GAIN MUSCLE ALL AT THE SAME TIME, i know i would, but gaining requires caloric surplus, loosing caloric deficit, thats just the fact and 2 cant be acheave at the same time, much less drug free. (only exception being if one can afford 18iu's of gh/day along with heavy androgens, but even at this dose the progress will come to eventual stop)

 

[blood_drinker]

What about my layover? Im 16 man and ive trained sporadically here are my stats

Arms - 16.5inch
Legs - 27,5inch (I play soccer+rugby, squat 250lbs Parallel times 6)
Chest - 50inch

Chest sound too much compared to you guys?
I divided it all by 2.25 to get inches. My chest is got some fat.
Here goes in cms to settle things

Arms 37.5cms
Leg - 62cms
Chest- 114cms

Fat : 20%, 82kgs, 180lbs
Thing is, I hate being scrawny. I play rugby. Id like to then try your hyper caloric diet (how much?) to gain little fat and lots of muscle since Im a relative beginner. Im gonna be on Celltech (a knockoff, exact same thing) and I expect relative water gains from that, which I understand translate into strength, which translates into mass.

Id love the help here , much appreciated.

 

[blood_drinker]

Again, thanks beaver, this is a bump for you and all the knowledgeable out there.

 

[blood_drinker]

Bump