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Alternative HPTA Restorative Therapies
- Thread starter Silent Method
- Start date
Androgel for recovery is retarded as it will keep you shut down. And there is no evidence of prolactin levels being high post cycle.
http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=961
http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=961
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peudo said:
agree- it's another form of HRT - the only diference is it's easier to keep steady blood levels and injections are not required. Anyone that says that Androgel will not shut your endogenous Testosterone production is a moron. I'm amazed at the advice thrown around here sometimes.
http://www.androgel.com/aa/aa_faq.html
AndroGel® provides testosterone replacement therapy to men whose bodies do not make enough testosterone. AndroGel® is the first testosterone gel approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for replacement therapy in men for conditions associated with low testosterone.
Last edited:
by Dave Barr, Science Editor
Getting the nuts pumping after long term anabolic steriod use (#798)
Background: 2 bodybuilders who self-administered anabolic steroids for many years, underwent drug therapy in an attempt to restore their LH and testosterone levels (i.e. the HPGA).
Subject 1: over 32 days he was given 2500IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid (2x/day) and 10mg tamoxifen qd (daily). This treatment restored LH levels to normal and testosterone levels to a high normal.
Subject 2: for the first 32 days he received 2500 IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid, and 1mg arimedex qd. The next 60 days he was given, 5000IU HCG every 4 days (4 shots total) followed by 2500 IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid and 10mg tamoxifen qd. The final 32 days he received 5000 IU HCG qod (6 shots total) followed by 2500IU HCG qod, given simultaneously with 150 IU menotropins, 50mg clomifen bid and 10mg tamoxifen qd. After the final treatment, his LH and testosterone levels had returned to normal values.
Comments: Clearly this study demonstrates the variability in peoples' responses to anabolic steroid use. The first subject responded quite well despite using juice for 10 years, while the second subject had only used nandrolone for 2 years and responded poorly to treatment. Of course this may seem like a good reason not to use nandrolone (its' progestrogenic metabolites are killers of natural test production, and very hard to control), but with only one person we can't make any assumptions. Overall this seems like landmark study for anabolic steroid users, which may give hope to those who have been using for extended periods of time. Not surprisingly, a bodybuilding guru; Chris Street was partially responsible for the study. Unfortunately, I wouldn't hold my breath for future studies like this.
References
http://www.anabolicextreme.com/anabolic/archives/anex_archives_issue11_cuttingedge.htm
Also Read This
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/roberts/9807.htm
And this one
http://mdmuscle.org/faq_sarcopenia_answers.htm
Getting the nuts pumping after long term anabolic steriod use (#798)
Background: 2 bodybuilders who self-administered anabolic steroids for many years, underwent drug therapy in an attempt to restore their LH and testosterone levels (i.e. the HPGA).
Subject 1: over 32 days he was given 2500IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid (2x/day) and 10mg tamoxifen qd (daily). This treatment restored LH levels to normal and testosterone levels to a high normal.
Subject 2: for the first 32 days he received 2500 IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid, and 1mg arimedex qd. The next 60 days he was given, 5000IU HCG every 4 days (4 shots total) followed by 2500 IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid and 10mg tamoxifen qd. The final 32 days he received 5000 IU HCG qod (6 shots total) followed by 2500IU HCG qod, given simultaneously with 150 IU menotropins, 50mg clomifen bid and 10mg tamoxifen qd. After the final treatment, his LH and testosterone levels had returned to normal values.
Comments: Clearly this study demonstrates the variability in peoples' responses to anabolic steroid use. The first subject responded quite well despite using juice for 10 years, while the second subject had only used nandrolone for 2 years and responded poorly to treatment. Of course this may seem like a good reason not to use nandrolone (its' progestrogenic metabolites are killers of natural test production, and very hard to control), but with only one person we can't make any assumptions. Overall this seems like landmark study for anabolic steroid users, which may give hope to those who have been using for extended periods of time. Not surprisingly, a bodybuilding guru; Chris Street was partially responsible for the study. Unfortunately, I wouldn't hold my breath for future studies like this.
References
http://www.anabolicextreme.com/anabolic/archives/anex_archives_issue11_cuttingedge.htm
Also Read This
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/roberts/9807.htm
And this one
http://mdmuscle.org/faq_sarcopenia_answers.htm
This is a interesting subject and just wanted to add some things for discussion. I'm trying to figure out what I want to try for my next cycle post cylce recovery. I did the clomid anastrozol thing and just want to know if there is a better way.
Fonz recommends adding androgel and it is used for replacement therapy at the full dose recommended. But could you use smaller dosages of the androgel or use a fast acting test such as Propionate for post cycle recovery along with your other ancilliaries?
example post cycle recovery:
day 1 300mg clomid + 5-10mg of test prop
day 2-7 100 mg clomid
day 4 5-10mg test prop
day 7 5-10 mg test prop
days 8-21 50mg clomid
day 10 5-10mg test prop and so on through out
in addition: also running anastrozol or similiar substance throughout post cycle, example ana at 1mg ed.
Would the low level of test prop effect recovery of the hpta? Would it just prolong the cycle? Would it minimize the crash leading one to keep more of ones gains giving the ancilliaries time to do their job until your own test production is back on line? etc etc
the following is the dosage schedule one would use for male with hypoganadism.
IM Dosage
Male Hypogonadism.
For replacement of endogenous testicular hormone in androgen-deficient males, the usual IM dosage is 10–25 mg of testosterone or testosterone propionate 2 or 3 times weekly, 50–400 mg of testosterone cypionate every 2–4 weeks, or 50–400 mg of testosterone enanthate every 2–4 weeks. In general, testosterone therapy is initiated with full therapeutic doses; subsequent dosage adjustment should be made according to the patient’s tolerance and therapeutic response.Alternatively, some clinicians state that complete androgen replacement in hypogonadal men generally can be achieved with 75–150 mg of testosterone cypionate or enanthate administered IM every 7–10 days.This regimen generally will achieve relatively physiologic testosterone concentrations throughout the time interval between doses.Longer time intervals between IM doses are more convenient but are associated with greater fluctuations in testosterone concentrations.Higher dosages produce longer-term effects but higher peak concentrations and wider swings between peak and nadir testosterone concentrations and resultant symptom fluctuation in many patients.If less frequent injection is desired, 100–200 mg IM every 2 weeks may be considered.While 300 mg IM every 3 weeks also may be considered for convenience, such dosing is associated with wider testosterone fluctuations and generally is inadequate to ensure a consistent clinical response.For men who develop pronounced symptoms in the week prior to the next dose with such prolonged dosing intervals, a smaller dose at a shorter dosing interval should be tried; in general, serum total testosterone concentrations should exceed 250–300 ng/dL just before the next dose.
My note: this is why I was wondering if you could use very low doses of prop (maybe between 5-10mg post cycle every few days instead of 10-25 mg for replacement therapy) to help with recovery.
----If full androgen replacement is not required, lower testosterone dosages are used.For example, in adult males with prepubertal onset of hypogonadism who are going through puberty for the first time with testosterone replacement, testosterone cypionate or enanthate may be initiated at 50–100 mg every 3–4 weeks, gradually increasing the dose in subsequent months as tolerated up to full replacement within 1 year.---
Attainment of full virilization in men with hypogonadism may require up to 3–4 years of IM testosterone replacement.Patients generally should be monitored at 4–6 months to assess clinical progress, review compliance, and determine whether any complications or psychologic adjustment problems are present. For the management of postpubertal cryptorchidism in patients with evidence of hypogonadism, the usual IM dosage is 10–25 mg of testosterone or testosterone propionate 2 or 3 times weekly.
Inoperable Carcinoma of the Breast
For the palliative treatment of advanced, inoperable, metastatic carcinoma of the breast in women, the use of short-acting androgen preparations rather than those with prolonged activity is preferred, especially during the early stages of treatment, since use of a long-acting preparation may preclude attempts to arrest or reverse untoward effects of the drug on tumor progression, hypercalcemia, and/or sodium and water retention. An IM dosage of 100 mg of testosterone or 50–100 mg of testosterone propionate, has been given 3 times weekly. Alternatively, 200–400 mg of testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate has been given IM every 2–4 weeks.
Fonz recommends adding androgel and it is used for replacement therapy at the full dose recommended. But could you use smaller dosages of the androgel or use a fast acting test such as Propionate for post cycle recovery along with your other ancilliaries?
example post cycle recovery:
day 1 300mg clomid + 5-10mg of test prop
day 2-7 100 mg clomid
day 4 5-10mg test prop
day 7 5-10 mg test prop
days 8-21 50mg clomid
day 10 5-10mg test prop and so on through out
in addition: also running anastrozol or similiar substance throughout post cycle, example ana at 1mg ed.
Would the low level of test prop effect recovery of the hpta? Would it just prolong the cycle? Would it minimize the crash leading one to keep more of ones gains giving the ancilliaries time to do their job until your own test production is back on line? etc etc
the following is the dosage schedule one would use for male with hypoganadism.
IM Dosage
Male Hypogonadism.
For replacement of endogenous testicular hormone in androgen-deficient males, the usual IM dosage is 10–25 mg of testosterone or testosterone propionate 2 or 3 times weekly, 50–400 mg of testosterone cypionate every 2–4 weeks, or 50–400 mg of testosterone enanthate every 2–4 weeks. In general, testosterone therapy is initiated with full therapeutic doses; subsequent dosage adjustment should be made according to the patient’s tolerance and therapeutic response.Alternatively, some clinicians state that complete androgen replacement in hypogonadal men generally can be achieved with 75–150 mg of testosterone cypionate or enanthate administered IM every 7–10 days.This regimen generally will achieve relatively physiologic testosterone concentrations throughout the time interval between doses.Longer time intervals between IM doses are more convenient but are associated with greater fluctuations in testosterone concentrations.Higher dosages produce longer-term effects but higher peak concentrations and wider swings between peak and nadir testosterone concentrations and resultant symptom fluctuation in many patients.If less frequent injection is desired, 100–200 mg IM every 2 weeks may be considered.While 300 mg IM every 3 weeks also may be considered for convenience, such dosing is associated with wider testosterone fluctuations and generally is inadequate to ensure a consistent clinical response.For men who develop pronounced symptoms in the week prior to the next dose with such prolonged dosing intervals, a smaller dose at a shorter dosing interval should be tried; in general, serum total testosterone concentrations should exceed 250–300 ng/dL just before the next dose.
My note: this is why I was wondering if you could use very low doses of prop (maybe between 5-10mg post cycle every few days instead of 10-25 mg for replacement therapy) to help with recovery.
----If full androgen replacement is not required, lower testosterone dosages are used.For example, in adult males with prepubertal onset of hypogonadism who are going through puberty for the first time with testosterone replacement, testosterone cypionate or enanthate may be initiated at 50–100 mg every 3–4 weeks, gradually increasing the dose in subsequent months as tolerated up to full replacement within 1 year.---
Attainment of full virilization in men with hypogonadism may require up to 3–4 years of IM testosterone replacement.Patients generally should be monitored at 4–6 months to assess clinical progress, review compliance, and determine whether any complications or psychologic adjustment problems are present. For the management of postpubertal cryptorchidism in patients with evidence of hypogonadism, the usual IM dosage is 10–25 mg of testosterone or testosterone propionate 2 or 3 times weekly.
Inoperable Carcinoma of the Breast
For the palliative treatment of advanced, inoperable, metastatic carcinoma of the breast in women, the use of short-acting androgen preparations rather than those with prolonged activity is preferred, especially during the early stages of treatment, since use of a long-acting preparation may preclude attempts to arrest or reverse untoward effects of the drug on tumor progression, hypercalcemia, and/or sodium and water retention. An IM dosage of 100 mg of testosterone or 50–100 mg of testosterone propionate, has been given 3 times weekly. Alternatively, 200–400 mg of testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate has been given IM every 2–4 weeks.
From the dosage schedule for hypogonadism, they recommend 10-25 mg 2-3 times per week for complete test replacement therapy. If you are completing a cycle you want to get back to normal test levels asap. If for example you take between 5-10 mg of prop 3 times/week wouldn't this be better than nothing? Also wouldn't the low level of test prop allow for the ancilliaries to work until you start producing test on your own? I'm just throwing this out there, I'm not sure, just trying to sort through all the different recommendations.
I understand what your saying Solid, I know that HRT will shut you down at that level of replacement therapy. Your saying any source of exogenous test will shut you down, but it has to be at a certain level correct. From my previous post about hypogonadism I listed the mg required for full HRT but as previously I'm not concerned about full HRTsince that will not help me with getting my own test production going again.
If I recall correctly from my biology classes...an average male will produce from 7-10mg of test a day or 49 - 70 mg/week. What I'm asking is this. At post cycle your test levels are below what ever your base line (say between the 49 and 70 mg/week ok) Now if you started your clomid, and are taking your arimidex or some other combination(HCG, nolvadex), in addition to this you add test prop at say 5-10mg every few days. Would this help you maintain your gains and make it easier on you during the post cycle recovery period until you start making test on your own? This little bit of added prop (say between 15 and 30 mg / week total, almost half what your normal test production would be) wouldn't this help you maintain and keep your gains, until the ancilliaries can do their job and get you back to producing your own test???? That's my question, not doing full HRT, I know that wouldn't work. I'm just not sure if doing partial HRT(if you want to call it that) plus your ancilliaries would work. I haven't seen anything that says it wouldn't but I haven't seen anything that said it would. Just trying to learn here. Yes or No for using small doses of test prop post cycle and why?
If I recall correctly from my biology classes...an average male will produce from 7-10mg of test a day or 49 - 70 mg/week. What I'm asking is this. At post cycle your test levels are below what ever your base line (say between the 49 and 70 mg/week ok) Now if you started your clomid, and are taking your arimidex or some other combination(HCG, nolvadex), in addition to this you add test prop at say 5-10mg every few days. Would this help you maintain your gains and make it easier on you during the post cycle recovery period until you start making test on your own? This little bit of added prop (say between 15 and 30 mg / week total, almost half what your normal test production would be) wouldn't this help you maintain and keep your gains, until the ancilliaries can do their job and get you back to producing your own test???? That's my question, not doing full HRT, I know that wouldn't work. I'm just not sure if doing partial HRT(if you want to call it that) plus your ancilliaries would work. I haven't seen anything that says it wouldn't but I haven't seen anything that said it would. Just trying to learn here. Yes or No for using small doses of test prop post cycle and why?
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