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Alternative HPTA Restorative Therapies

Silent Method

New member
Educated steroid use and HPTA restorative therapy go hand in hand. This was not always the case. Vets who've been around for a while can attest to the fact that post-cycle HPTA therapies have provided modern steroid users with an advantage, increasing the success of steroid cycles and contributing to the user's safety.

Clomid therapy has become accepted as the most practical and, in many peoples minds, the most effective form of post-cycle HPTA recovery. However, the science of successful steroid use is an evolving art. Many gurus today debate whether clomid is truely king.

I'm asking fellow members for alternative restorative therapies, wothwhile additions to traditional therapies, and support for these theories.
 
Go to medibolics.com , click on articles section, there is a new study posted that has a post cycle regimen of hcg/clomid/nolvadex. Very interesting.
 
i found Nolvadex more effective then HCG. Nolvadex always made my nuts swell up within a week and kept them swollen after i discontinued.
 
Yes, we need to really take a 360 degree look at this issue. There's too many conflicting theory's floating around. I think we really need to start from scratch taking a look at each form of post-cycle therapy and disecting it's flaws and justify it's benefits.
 
Bromo seems to help somewhat but it makes it tough to eat right as well. It's only a few weeks though that you need to truck on through with the force feedings. Anastrozole can only help.
 
I was speaking with Jerry Brainum on this issue just last week. For those of you who don't know Jerry, he's one of the more truly knowledgabe people in the sport and has been writing on the topic of pharmacology for longer than most of tody's gurus have been alive. He's also worked with dozens of pro bodybuilders as well as professional athletes in boxing and football.

This is a direct quote.

"I don't know of a single pro bodybuilder who still uses Clomid."


Take it for what it's worth.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I was speaking with Jerry Brainum on this issue just last week. For those of you who don't know Jerry, he's one of the more truly knowledgabe people in the sport and has been writing on the topic of pharmacology for longer than most of tody's gurus have been alive. He's also worked with dozens of pro bodybuilders as well as professional athletes in boxing and football.

This is a direct quote.

"I don't know of a single pro bodybuilder who still uses Clomid."


Take it for what it's worth.

And?????? Don't leave us hangin' Mr. Montana!!!
 
Nathan said:
Anastrozole can only help.
Can it? Are we sure it will not harm? Could it's effective reduction on estrogen (via inhibition of aromatization) reduce the intensity of the body's attemp to reach it's normal hormonal homeostasis.
 
I found clomid did very little post-cycle. I believe HCG is best, it got me back really quick and made me feel so much better. Weight and strength immediatley went back up.
 
Stillgoing said:


And?????? Don't leave us hangin' Mr. Montana!!!

Big DITTO!!! :)


Originally posted by projection


I found clomid did very little post-cycle. I believe HCG is best, it got me back really quick and made me feel so much better. Weight and strength immediatley went back up.

Again, ditto. :)
 
The more I read about Clomid the more I think it doesn not belong in the bodybuilding canon.

There is no doubt that supressing Estrogen can and will induce the body to produce more androstenedione, which can only be converted to test. However lack of estrogen makes lots of people feel like doo-doo and makes your joints MUCH more prone to injury.

Is HCG easy to get like clomid and Letrozole? If so where do you get it? Or is it more controlled?

JC
 
i found clomid to be extremely helpful post cycle.....did not crash at all....what indeed are these pro bodybuilders using....i mean cmon he's probably saying that because they dont cycle and in fact are on year round then of coarse he wouldnt know of a pro that uses clomid;)
 
Ok, I'll divulge a few secrets.....

1. Aromasin/Femara for estrogen reduction.
Best is aromasin. WIth femara a close second.

2. Cabergoline/Bromocriptine for prolactin suppression.
Best is cabergoline. Also increases GH.

3. Androgel. Yes androgel. It will keep test levels in the middle/upper range with NO IMPACT om your LH.(This
idea was actually fielded by Mr. Nobody. Have to give
credit where credit is due :) )

No HCG/Novaldex/Clomid. They are antiquated.

These three drugs target all the fractors that make HPTA
recovery slower.

Estrogen/Prolactin/Low test levels

Fonz
 
Hey Fonz,
Would you care to elaborate on dosages of Cabergoline post cycle. The price for one .5mg tab is outrages according to some online pharms I glanced at. Thanks
 
I didn't mean to sound cryptic. The point is, Clomid kinda blows. And the pros know this so they don't bother wih it. People will say; I used it and had no crash!" Well, how do you know you would have had a crash without it? It's like saying homeopathic medicines "lessen" the severity of an illness. How can you gaudge this???

The bottom line here? There is no free ride. You can't jump from one drug to the next and expect to get away scott free and kep all your gains in a natural (actually supressed) state. That's why I've always advocted smaller dosages and shorter cycles, but everyone wants to be big yesterday -- they overdo it and then whine when it's time to pay the piper.

So what's the answer? HCG will definetely cusion the big blow. (Use the the way Dan Duchaine suggested -- smaller dosages over the course of a couple of days instead of the recommended 2000IU hit a week for 2 weeks) ) And yes, AndroGel is great because it provides a natural peak and dip to T levels. But sooner or later you have to come off for good and besides nutrients, some herbs and a lot of sleep, you just have to dig in and deal with it.
 
Fonz said:

3. Androgel. Yes androgel. It will keep test levels in the middle/upper range with NO IMPACT om your LH.(This
idea was actually fielded by Mr. Nobody. Have to give
credit where credit is due :) )

How does that work? I though introducing outside androgens into your system always suppressed HPTA?
 
Nelson Montana said:

The bottom line here? There is no free ride. You can't jump from one drug to the next and expect to get away scott free and kep all your gains in a natural (actually supressed) state. That's why I've always advocted smaller dosages and shorter cycles, but everyone wants to be big yesterday -- they overdo it and then whine when it's time to pay the piper.

But sooner or later you have to come off for good and besides nutrients, some herbs and a lot of sleep, you just have to dig in and deal with it.

Say it ma brothah! 100% dead-on.
 
Okay, I'd just like to point out here that we're talking about post-cycle recovery, not attacking problems during cycle. Isn't nolvadex still the most effective way to attack estrogen-induced gyno? Or are the pro's using something else for that too?
Also, I've heard that HCG should really be used during your cycle to bring your testicles back to their proper size, and in the last few weeks of the cycle, at 500iu's a day. Doesn't using it post-cycle actually contribute to suppressing your natural LH production longer?
 
drug_against_war said:
Okay, I'd just like to point out here that we're talking about post-cycle recovery, not attacking problems during cycle. Isn't nolvadex still the most effective way to attack estrogen-induced gyno?
My intent on creating this thread was strictly to amass information regarding endocrine system recovery - not secondary side effects. However, as you mentioned, methods of priming the endocrine system for recovery durring a steroid cycle, such as mid cycle HCG, are welcome.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I didn't mean to sound cryptic. The point is, Clomid kinda blows. And the pros know this so they don't bother wih it. People will say; I used it and had no crash!" Well, how do you know you would have had a crash without it? It's like saying homeopathic medicines "lessen" the severity of an illness. How can you gaudge this???

The bottom line here? There is no free ride. You can't jump from one drug to the next and expect to get away scott free and kep all your gains in a natural (actually supressed) state. That's why I've always advocted smaller dosages and shorter cycles, but everyone wants to be big yesterday -- they overdo it and then whine when it's time to pay the piper.

So what's the answer? HCG will definetely cusion the big blow. (Use the the way Dan Duchaine suggested -- smaller dosages over the course of a couple of days instead of the recommended 2000IU hit a week for 2 weeks) ) And yes, AndroGel is great because it provides a natural peak and dip to T levels. But sooner or later you have to come off for good and besides nutrients, some herbs and a lot of sleep, you just have to dig in and deal with it.

HCG is garbage too.

Androgel is definately the way to go.

As I said before it has minimal impact on LH, therefore
your testes can recover while you're ON androgel.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


HCG is garbage too.

Androgel is definately the way to go.

As I said before it has minimal impact on LH, therefore
your testes can recover while you're ON androgel.

Fonz

I'm going to try the androgel as Fonz has suggested although for what it's worth I do feel I've had a lot of success with hcg.
 
Fonz, sorry to bother you with more questions, but could you please expand on androgel. How much do you use? When do you start it? How long do you use it? Thanks, bro.
 
Fonz said:


HCG is garbage too.

Androgel is definately the way to go.

As I said before it has minimal impact on LH, therefore
your testes can recover while you're ON androgel.

Fonz

How can you say that HCG is crap? I one's testicle's are shrunken HCG is the only substance to bring them back to par ASAP. If your balls are not up to size they will not be able to produce as they would if they were up to normal size. Nothing can accomplish this like HCG!
 
HCG isn't the magic bullet some people make it out to be , but it isn't crap. The cosmetic benifits alone (testicular size) makes it worth it to most guys.

AndroGel would be perfect to use in the final stages of a cycle -- a normal cycle, not this 16 week shit -- before the testicles atrophy. Once atrophy occurs the few hours a night when the body doesn't have exogenous T won't be enough to get them back. Incidentally, AndroGel is also a good way to start back up again. But don't expect big gains from it. It's used for replacement purposes and equals about 200mgs of cyp a week. (I know the numbers don't line up, but that's about right).
Unfortunately, it's also expensive -- about 6 bucks for a daily dosage. And don't expect to find it on the black market. I wouldn't think there's a big demand for it -- yet.

Hmmm, IP AndroGel.......




.
 
HCG is temporary.

Anyways, here you go guys.(thanks to Mr. BMJ)

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 87, No. 10 4447-4451
Copyright © 2002 by The Endocrine Society

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CLINICAL CASE SEMINAR

"The Novel Use of Very High Doses of Cabergoline and a Combination of Testosterone and an Aromatase Inhibitor in the Treatment of a Giant Prolactinoma"

Mary P. Gillam, Stewart Middler, Daniel J. Freed and Mark E. Molitch

Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine (M.P.G., M.E.M.), Northwestern University, The Feinberg Medical School, Chicago, Illinois 60611; and Cedars-Sinai Medical Center (S.M.), University of California at Los Angeles School of Medicine, Los Angeles, California 90048

Abstract

Most prolactinomas respond rapidly to low doses of dopamine agonists. Occasionally, stepwise increases in doses of these agents are needed to achieve gradual prolactin (PRL) reductions. Approximately 50% of treated men remain hypogonadal, yet testosterone replacement may stimulate hyperprolactinemia.

A 34-yr-old male with a pituitary macroadenoma was found to have a PRL level of 10,362 µg/liter and testosterone level of 3.5 nmol/liter. Eleven months of dopamine agonist therapy at standard doses lowered PRL levels to 299 µg/liter. Subsequent stepwise increases in cabergoline (3 mg daily) further lowered PRL levels to 71 µg/liter, but hypogonadism persisted. Initiation of testosterone replacement resulted in a rise and discontinuation in a fall of PRL levels. Aromatization of exogenous testosterone to estradiol and subsequent estrogen-stimulated PRL release was suspected. Concomitant use of cabergoline with the aromatase inhibitor anastrozole after resuming testosterone replacement resulted in the maintenance of testosterone levels and restoration of normal sexual function, without increasing PRL. Ultimately, further reduction in PRL on this therapy permitted endogenous testosterone production. Thus, novel pharmacological maneuvers may permit successful medical treatment of some patients with invasive macroprolactinomas.

BMJ

Fonz
 
I'm not looking for conjecture and opinions here. Theory is fine, but please back it up.

Fonz, please describe the physiology behind your prescribed recovery therapy. Why does each component work. Why don't other components, HCG as you mentionaed, work well?
 
I've used HCG following my past 2 cycles, its tried and true as far as I'm concerned.

Here's the post cycle regimen I follow...

4 weeks of Nolva(20mg/ED)concurrent with HCG immediately following cycle. I make an effort to finish the cycle with fast acting drugs, so I can hop on the ancilliaries quick. I know others will flame me for this, but I crank the HCG 5000IU/E7D for 3 weeks(15 000IU total).

Following my last shot of HCG, I'll continue the Nolva for another week. Then I'll run a month of Clomid... 2 weeks at 100mg/ED and 2 weeks at 50mg/ED

I've used this regimen twice before and its worked AMAZING! The first time I used it, it was following a 5 month cycle that ended May 2001. I kept everything from my cycle and remained nice and hard indefinitely. I used it again in April 2002 with the same results. That time, I had a post cycle medical examination. The Physician pulled all the levels you can imagine and gave my Testicles a very rough examination. All my levels were good to go and he remarked that there appeared to be no atrophy with my boys.

I'm post cycle as of today... I'll be running it just like that for 2 full months.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I didn't mean to sound cryptic. The point is, Clomid kinda blows. And the pros know this so they don't bother wih it. People will say; I used it and had no crash!" Well, how do you know you would have had a crash without it? It's like saying homeopathic medicines "lessen" the severity of an illness. How can you gaudge this???

The bottom line here? There is no free ride. You can't jump from one drug to the next and expect to get away scott free and kep all your gains in a natural (actually supressed) state. That's why I've always advocted smaller dosages and shorter cycles, but everyone wants to be big yesterday -- they overdo it and then whine when it's time to pay the piper.

So what's the answer? HCG will definetely cusion the big blow. (Use the the way Dan Duchaine suggested -- smaller dosages over the course of a couple of days instead of the recommended 2000IU hit a week for 2 weeks) ) And yes, AndroGel is great because it provides a natural peak and dip to T levels. But sooner or later you have to come off for good and besides nutrients, some herbs and a lot of sleep, you just have to dig in and deal with it.


not at all bro.....and i agree to an extent.

But due to my own individual research i found clomid to be the drug of choice for my particular post cycle regimen.....( i didnt want to be a guinea pig and not run a proper post cycle ). I just thought that stating because the "pros" dont use it= choice is obsolete, was a bit rash.....

Fonz on the other hand was providing some interesting findings with regards to its worth post cycle....

uh buuuuuump
 
Ok, I'm going to post this link for those of you who actually time the time to do your research. I'm posting this because I think that it is a good read and it has a wide variety of views on different perceptions of post cycle recovery. I do not just listen to what joeblow says and take his advice as the holy grail.


here you go
 
Didn't anybody read the article at medibolics.com? This is a medical model for an after cycle protocol using hcg, nolvadex, and clomid. Blood levels are posted and it is very well done. Everyone here is talking aobut opinions and you could have hard data!
 
Good link solid my man. I don't like the negative sides myself and many experience with clomid, I also think that its highly over rated. I've always had very good results with hcg and nolvadex, close to the way Bill L. suggested in solid's link. Now I add proviron at 25mg a day to the mix so that I don't suffer with problems of sexual performance even for a day. Nothing in my experience has worked better than HCG. I also like the burst of strength that I get from it.
 
jboldman said:
Didn't anybody read the article at medibolics.com? This is a medical model for an after cycle protocol using hcg, nolvadex, and clomid. Blood levels are posted and it is very well done. Everyone here is talking aobut opinions and you could have hard data!

Post the link please.


liftsiron- thanks bro. I am trying to get my hands on some Proviron right now.
 
Taken from http://www.animalkits.be/phpBB/index.php

Understanding Post Cycle “T” Recovery
By William Llewellyn





O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol. You’ve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can’t stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins. Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look. What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.



The Axis



The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.



Testicular Desensitization


Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.


Post-Cycle LH Levels


Post Cycle Testosterone Levels



Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.



The Role of Anti-estrogens


It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.



HCG


So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.



Finalizing the Program


An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.



Sample Post-cycle Plan:


Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily



In Closing


I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.


References:

1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84

2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13

3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1079









Mind and Muscle Magazine is a division of Par Deus, Inc.
©2000 — 2001. Par Deus, Inc. All Rights Reserved
 
genarr3 said:
Taken from http://www.animalkits.be/phpBB/index.php

Understanding Post Cycle “T” Recovery
By William Llewellyn





O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol. You’ve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can’t stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins. Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look. What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.



The Axis



The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.



Testicular Desensitization


Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.


Post-Cycle LH Levels


Post Cycle Testosterone Levels



Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.



The Role of Anti-estrogens


It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.



HCG


So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.



Finalizing the Program


An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.



Sample Post-cycle Plan:


Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily



In Closing


I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.


References:

1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84

2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13

3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1079









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©2000 — 2001. Par Deus, Inc. All Rights Reserved

This program is, I'm sorry to say, antiquated.

It does not take into account prolactin, which hinders
HPTA recovery.

Fonz
 
hey nice reposts:rolleyes: .

My intentions for originally posting that link was not to say that -that was the way to go for post cycle therapy, but to see the arguements about the article for those that replied to the thread. That way you can see a wide variety of persons perceptions and come to a conclusion on your own. The article itself was just merely something to critique.
 
When I had an ADR with a medication earlier this year, I learned about QT-prolongation and medications which could cause it. In doing a search on other med's that cause this problem, I came across Tamoxifen being one of them. Some will say that this only happens to a very small percent of the users of this drug, however, I suggest it happens to many more than realize it and because it is asymptomatic, they just don't realize it. Having QT-prolongation is some scarey shit, at least for me it is. For what it's worth, here's some info which IS NOT intended to scare anyone, just inform. hth

The antiestrogen tamoxifen blocks the delayed rectifier potassium current, IKr, in rabbit ventricular myocytes.

Liu XK, Katchman A, Ebert SN, Woosley RL.

Department of Pharmacology, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, DC, USA.

Tamoxifen is an antiestrogen drug commonly used to treat breast cancer and has been shown to cause prolongation of the electrocardiographic QT interval in humans. Because QT prolongation could influence cardiac arrhythmias, we sought to determine the electrophysiologic mechanism(s) underlying the tamoxifen action. The whole-cell patch-clamp technique was used to study the effect of tamoxifen on the delayed rectifier (IKr), the inward rectifier (IK1), the transient outward current (Ito), and the inward L-type calcium current (ICa) in rabbit ventricular myocytes. By switching to the current-clamp mode, the effect of tamoxifen on action potential duration (APD) was also studied. Tamoxifen blocked IKr in a time-, concentration- and voltage-dependent fashion. IKr tail currents were completely blocked by 10 micromol/l tamoxifen with no recovery after 15 min of washout. At +50 mV, tamoxifen 1 and 3.3 micromol/l blocked IKr by 39.5 +/- 1.7% (P <.01) and 84.8 +/- 1.3% (P <.01) respectively, while no significant block of IK1 or Ito was observed. Significant block of ICa by tamoxifen was also observed at concentrations greater than 1 &mgr;mol/l, with almost complete inhibition at 10 micromol/l. Tamoxifen showed no significant effect on APD at concentrations up to 3.3 &mgr;mol/l. We conclude that tamoxifen potently blocks both IKr and ICa at clinically relevant concentrations. The observed QT prolongation by tamoxifen in humans may be a result of its predominant effect on IKr. Inhibition of IKr, in conjunction with other QT-prolonging factors in patients could increase their risk of developing torsades de pointes-type cardiac arrhythmias.

PMID: 9864267 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
40butpumpin said:
When I had an ADR with a medication earlier this year, I learned about QT-prolongation and medications which could cause it. In doing a search on other med's that cause this problem, I came across Tamoxifen being one of them. Some will say that this only happens to a very small percent of the users of this drug, however, I suggest it happens to many more than realize it and because it is asymptomatic, they just don't realize it. Having QT-prolongation is some scarey shit, at least for me it is. For what it's worth, here's some info which IS NOT intended to scare anyone, just inform. hth

The antiestrogen tamoxifen blocks the delayed rectifier potassium current, IKr, in rabbit ventricular myocytes.

Liu XK, Katchman A, Ebert SN, Woosley RL.

Department of Pharmacology, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, DC, USA.

Tamoxifen is an antiestrogen drug commonly used to treat breast cancer and has been shown to cause prolongation of the electrocardiographic QT interval in humans. Because QT prolongation could influence cardiac arrhythmias, we sought to determine the electrophysiologic mechanism(s) underlying the tamoxifen action. The whole-cell patch-clamp technique was used to study the effect of tamoxifen on the delayed rectifier (IKr), the inward rectifier (IK1), the transient outward current (Ito), and the inward L-type calcium current (ICa) in rabbit ventricular myocytes. By switching to the current-clamp mode, the effect of tamoxifen on action potential duration (APD) was also studied. Tamoxifen blocked IKr in a time-, concentration- and voltage-dependent fashion. IKr tail currents were completely blocked by 10 micromol/l tamoxifen with no recovery after 15 min of washout. At +50 mV, tamoxifen 1 and 3.3 micromol/l blocked IKr by 39.5 +/- 1.7% (P <.01) and 84.8 +/- 1.3% (P <.01) respectively, while no significant block of IK1 or Ito was observed. Significant block of ICa by tamoxifen was also observed at concentrations greater than 1 &mgr;mol/l, with almost complete inhibition at 10 micromol/l. Tamoxifen showed no significant effect on APD at concentrations up to 3.3 &mgr;mol/l. We conclude that tamoxifen potently blocks both IKr and ICa at clinically relevant concentrations. The observed QT prolongation by tamoxifen in humans may be a result of its predominant effect on IKr. Inhibition of IKr, in conjunction with other QT-prolonging factors in patients could increase their risk of developing torsades de pointes-type cardiac arrhythmias.

PMID: 9864267 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Oh trust me I've read many studies on ill effects of Tomaxifen- and it is some scary shit!
 
jboldman said:
Go to medibolics.com , click on articles section, there is a new study posted that has a post cycle regimen of hcg/clomid/nolvadex. Very interesting.

Would it have killed the authors to specify HOW MUCH juice was taken??? (Yes test, yes deca, but I have no clue how much.)

Annoying... so close to real hard data...
 
jboldman said:
Didn't anybody read the article at medibolics.com? This is a medical model for an after cycle protocol using hcg, nolvadex, and clomid. Blood levels are posted and it is very well done. Everyone here is talking aobut opinions and you could have hard data!

ALSO

1. It doesn't specify how soon post-cycle the regimen was started (the 30-day mark is interesting because the high T levels contradict what I thought about cyp's halflife of ca. 2-3 weeks, but since deca was in there they really shouldn't even have begun post-cycle treatment till day 21 or later).

2. Endogenous LH is STILL suppressed after 90 days and has not improved from the 30-day mark. That implies that maybe introducing exogenous LH (HCG!!!) DOES keep it suppressed... notice how it only began to upregulate after HCG treatment ended.

3. When were the "final" results taken? After 120 days? After 15 years?

Just some thoughts.
 
For those unable to access the pdf file(you need adobe acrobat) here is the summary, I understand that there are unanswered questions and I would suggest finding the full text or emailing the authors to get the answers. This however does provide some basis upon which to form conclusions or critiques.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment N Vergel, AL Hodge and MC Scally Objective:To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens. Methods: An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 _ 57, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BIDx30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg POQDx45d), to restore the HPGA. Results:Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458. Discussion:The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV-positive subjects.
 
kyle said:
Fonz,

Anywhere to get cabergoline that it is not so expensive?

Its only made by Up John.

Its $250 for 8 1mg tabs. At the pharmacy.

I'm still looking for some overseas sources. No luck as of yet.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


Its only made by Up John.

Its $250 for 8 1mg tabs. At the pharmacy.

I'm still looking for some overseas sources. No luck as of yet.

Fonz

The tabs are 0.5, not 1mg. Lucky me has insurance paying for it :D ... I'll be on it w/ fina as of Sunday, I'll keep y'all updated.

Fonz, see my DNP/T3 question to you up above on this page.
 
liftsiron said:
Good link solid my man. I don't like the negative sides myself and many experience with clomid, I also think that its highly over rated. I've always had very good results with hcg and nolvadex, close to the way Bill L. suggested in solid's link. Now I add proviron at 25mg a day to the mix so that I don't suffer with problems of sexual performance even for a day. Nothing in my experience has worked better than HCG. I also like the burst of strength that I get from it.

I have also had better results with the HCG/Nolva. BTW, how do you prefer running HCG (500iu ED vs 2000iu *3 a week or so)?
 
DaMan said:


The tabs are 0.5, not 1mg. Lucky me has insurance paying for it :D ... I'll be on it w/ fina as of Sunday, I'll keep y'all updated.

Fonz, see my DNP/T3 question to you up above on this page.

My bad. I meant to say 0.5mg/tab.

Fonz
 
peudo said:
Androgel for recovery is retarded as it will keep you shut down. And there is no evidence of prolactin levels being high post cycle.

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=961


agree- it's another form of HRT - the only diference is it's easier to keep steady blood levels and injections are not required. Anyone that says that Androgel will not shut your endogenous Testosterone production is a moron. I'm amazed at the advice thrown around here sometimes.

http://www.androgel.com/aa/aa_faq.html

AndroGel® provides testosterone replacement therapy to men whose bodies do not make enough testosterone. AndroGel® is the first testosterone gel approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for replacement therapy in men for conditions associated with low testosterone.
 
Last edited:
by Dave Barr, Science Editor

Getting the nuts pumping after long term anabolic steriod use (#798)

Background: 2 bodybuilders who self-administered anabolic steroids for many years, underwent drug therapy in an attempt to restore their LH and testosterone levels (i.e. the HPGA).

Subject 1: over 32 days he was given 2500IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid (2x/day) and 10mg tamoxifen qd (daily). This treatment restored LH levels to normal and testosterone levels to a high normal.

Subject 2: for the first 32 days he received 2500 IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid, and 1mg arimedex qd. The next 60 days he was given, 5000IU HCG every 4 days (4 shots total) followed by 2500 IU HCG every 4 days, 50mg clomifen bid and 10mg tamoxifen qd. The final 32 days he received 5000 IU HCG qod (6 shots total) followed by 2500IU HCG qod, given simultaneously with 150 IU menotropins, 50mg clomifen bid and 10mg tamoxifen qd. After the final treatment, his LH and testosterone levels had returned to normal values.

Comments: Clearly this study demonstrates the variability in peoples' responses to anabolic steroid use. The first subject responded quite well despite using juice for 10 years, while the second subject had only used nandrolone for 2 years and responded poorly to treatment. Of course this may seem like a good reason not to use nandrolone (its' progestrogenic metabolites are killers of natural test production, and very hard to control), but with only one person we can't make any assumptions. Overall this seems like landmark study for anabolic steroid users, which may give hope to those who have been using for extended periods of time. Not surprisingly, a bodybuilding guru; Chris Street was partially responsible for the study. Unfortunately, I wouldn't hold my breath for future studies like this.


References
http://www.anabolicextreme.com/anabolic/archives/anex_archives_issue11_cuttingedge.htm

Also Read This
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/roberts/9807.htm
And this one
http://mdmuscle.org/faq_sarcopenia_answers.htm
 
This is a interesting subject and just wanted to add some things for discussion. I'm trying to figure out what I want to try for my next cycle post cylce recovery. I did the clomid anastrozol thing and just want to know if there is a better way.

Fonz recommends adding androgel and it is used for replacement therapy at the full dose recommended. But could you use smaller dosages of the androgel or use a fast acting test such as Propionate for post cycle recovery along with your other ancilliaries?

example post cycle recovery:

day 1 300mg clomid + 5-10mg of test prop
day 2-7 100 mg clomid
day 4 5-10mg test prop
day 7 5-10 mg test prop
days 8-21 50mg clomid
day 10 5-10mg test prop and so on through out

in addition: also running anastrozol or similiar substance throughout post cycle, example ana at 1mg ed.

Would the low level of test prop effect recovery of the hpta? Would it just prolong the cycle? Would it minimize the crash leading one to keep more of ones gains giving the ancilliaries time to do their job until your own test production is back on line? etc etc

the following is the dosage schedule one would use for male with hypoganadism.

IM Dosage

Male Hypogonadism.
For replacement of endogenous testicular hormone in androgen-deficient males, the usual IM dosage is 10–25 mg of testosterone or testosterone propionate 2 or 3 times weekly, 50–400 mg of testosterone cypionate every 2–4 weeks, or 50–400 mg of testosterone enanthate every 2–4 weeks. In general, testosterone therapy is initiated with full therapeutic doses; subsequent dosage adjustment should be made according to the patient’s tolerance and therapeutic response.Alternatively, some clinicians state that complete androgen replacement in hypogonadal men generally can be achieved with 75–150 mg of testosterone cypionate or enanthate administered IM every 7–10 days.This regimen generally will achieve relatively physiologic testosterone concentrations throughout the time interval between doses.Longer time intervals between IM doses are more convenient but are associated with greater fluctuations in testosterone concentrations.Higher dosages produce longer-term effects but higher peak concentrations and wider swings between peak and nadir testosterone concentrations and resultant symptom fluctuation in many patients.If less frequent injection is desired, 100–200 mg IM every 2 weeks may be considered.While 300 mg IM every 3 weeks also may be considered for convenience, such dosing is associated with wider testosterone fluctuations and generally is inadequate to ensure a consistent clinical response.For men who develop pronounced symptoms in the week prior to the next dose with such prolonged dosing intervals, a smaller dose at a shorter dosing interval should be tried; in general, serum total testosterone concentrations should exceed 250–300 ng/dL just before the next dose.


My note: this is why I was wondering if you could use very low doses of prop (maybe between 5-10mg post cycle every few days instead of 10-25 mg for replacement therapy) to help with recovery.

----If full androgen replacement is not required, lower testosterone dosages are used.For example, in adult males with prepubertal onset of hypogonadism who are going through puberty for the first time with testosterone replacement, testosterone cypionate or enanthate may be initiated at 50–100 mg every 3–4 weeks, gradually increasing the dose in subsequent months as tolerated up to full replacement within 1 year.---

Attainment of full virilization in men with hypogonadism may require up to 3–4 years of IM testosterone replacement.Patients generally should be monitored at 4–6 months to assess clinical progress, review compliance, and determine whether any complications or psychologic adjustment problems are present. For the management of postpubertal cryptorchidism in patients with evidence of hypogonadism, the usual IM dosage is 10–25 mg of testosterone or testosterone propionate 2 or 3 times weekly.
Inoperable Carcinoma of the Breast
For the palliative treatment of advanced, inoperable, metastatic carcinoma of the breast in women, the use of short-acting androgen preparations rather than those with prolonged activity is preferred, especially during the early stages of treatment, since use of a long-acting preparation may preclude attempts to arrest or reverse untoward effects of the drug on tumor progression, hypercalcemia, and/or sodium and water retention. An IM dosage of 100 mg of testosterone or 50–100 mg of testosterone propionate, has been given 3 times weekly. Alternatively, 200–400 mg of testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate has been given IM every 2–4 weeks.
 
From the dosage schedule for hypogonadism, they recommend 10-25 mg 2-3 times per week for complete test replacement therapy. If you are completing a cycle you want to get back to normal test levels asap. If for example you take between 5-10 mg of prop 3 times/week wouldn't this be better than nothing? Also wouldn't the low level of test prop allow for the ancilliaries to work until you start producing test on your own? I'm just throwing this out there, I'm not sure, just trying to sort through all the different recommendations.
 
any exogenous source of testosterone is going to shut you down. I was on HRT and they don't give you Prop, they give you Upjohn cyp or enanthate 200mg every other week. This amount shut me down bro.
 
I understand what your saying Solid, I know that HRT will shut you down at that level of replacement therapy. Your saying any source of exogenous test will shut you down, but it has to be at a certain level correct. From my previous post about hypogonadism I listed the mg required for full HRT but as previously I'm not concerned about full HRTsince that will not help me with getting my own test production going again.

If I recall correctly from my biology classes...an average male will produce from 7-10mg of test a day or 49 - 70 mg/week. What I'm asking is this. At post cycle your test levels are below what ever your base line (say between the 49 and 70 mg/week ok) Now if you started your clomid, and are taking your arimidex or some other combination(HCG, nolvadex), in addition to this you add test prop at say 5-10mg every few days. Would this help you maintain your gains and make it easier on you during the post cycle recovery period until you start making test on your own? This little bit of added prop (say between 15 and 30 mg / week total, almost half what your normal test production would be) wouldn't this help you maintain and keep your gains, until the ancilliaries can do their job and get you back to producing your own test???? That's my question, not doing full HRT, I know that wouldn't work. I'm just not sure if doing partial HRT(if you want to call it that) plus your ancilliaries would work. I haven't seen anything that says it wouldn't but I haven't seen anything that said it would. Just trying to learn here. Yes or No for using small doses of test prop post cycle and why?
 
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