ALA / CLA / Glutemine

[hookdup]

I've been working on the training
(thanks to all your advice)
and am eating fairly clean (yes this can be improved and I am definitely working on it)
... but, although I've lost weight, my BF has remained the same, which means I'm losing muscle as well as fat.

So ... I've been reading a lot about Alpha Linoic Acid (ALA) Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA) and Glutemine.

I'm wondering if these would help limit the muscle loss / recovery.

I'm currently taking an NYC stack - 5 pills per day and a multi-vitamin.

How would I add these supplements to my day?
How many & how often.

Everyone on this board has been so helpful and I totally trust you guys to steer me in the right direction.

I just don't want to over-supplement (is that a word???)

Thanks in advance!

 

[Temple]

The key to limiting muscle catabolism while losing fat lies primarily in your diet, training and cardio structure. Supplements can help but they won't do the work for you and are really of no benefit until the key ingredients are in place. Once the foundation is in place then L-Glut and Alpha Lipolic Acid will be of benefit to you.

 

[Ceebs]

ALA...

What Temple said.

I also wanted to add that ALA does not have any direct muscle-sparing effects, all it does is upregulate the GLUT-4 glucose receptor on muscle and fat cells, which improves glycogen synthesis and transiently, insulin sensitivity.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Re: ALA...

What Temple said.

I also wanted to add that ALA does not have any direct muscle-sparing effects, all it does is upregulate the GLUT-4 glucose receptor on muscle and fat cells, which improves glycogen synthesis and transiently, insulin sensitivity.

Uh, Ceebs, I think she's talking about the fatty acid (?) alpha LINOEIC acid, not the nutrient partitioning alpha LIPOIC acid - however the hell you spell those two - one's a "P", one's an "N".

I don't know about the first one (N), but the second one (P) is supposed to be good for increasing uptake of glycogen into the muscle cells, as Ceebs said, which translates into more efficient use of carbohydrates. (Don't quote me on this - I just read it this morning, so I'm still processing).

 

[Ceebs]

Re: Re: ALA...

Uh, Ceebs, I think she's talking about the fatty acid (?) alpha LINOEIC acid, not the nutrient partitioning alpha LIPOIC acid - however the hell you spell those two - one's a "P", one's an "N".

Mea culpa, my bad - I should have read more closely. Alpha Lipoic Acid and Alpha Linoleic Acid are two totally different substances with different effects.

 

[hookdup]

No, my bad.
I meant Alpha LiPoic Acid.

I have read that it improves glycogen synthesis.
But what exactly does that mean?


What's the benefit. I know it has to do with insulin sensitivity, but I still don't understand it completely.

Can anyone explain it in layman's terms???

Please?
And thank you

 

[hookdup]

I've also done more reading on CLA and from what I understand, it's pretty similar to Flax Seed Oil.
I already take a spoonful of that a day, so I'm guessing I don't need that.

So just ALA and glutemine??
How much, how often...

And I'm still trying to figure out ALA

HELP

 

[Temple]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA) is a unique nutrient shown to have a potent effect on glucose disposal. It is also a natural antioxidant with free radical scavenging abilities as well as the ability to regenerate oxidized antioxidants. This actually makes other antioxidants more potent.
ALA also increases the levels of intra-cellular glutathione. Glutathione has been shown to enhance recovery from heavy training by reducing intra-cellular damage.

ALA's ability to enhance glucose uptake is a very exciting effect that could enhance other nutrient distribution. By mimicking insulin, ALA increases uptake of glucose into the muscle cell by 65%. This glucose transport stimulation is accomplished through Lipoic Acid's participation in the insulin signaling pathway. Lipoic Acid provokes an upward shift of the glucose-insulin dose-response curve. This is an important function that enhances muscle cell nutrient uptake and protein turnover.

ALA may also increase creatine's ability to enter the muscle cell further enhancing creatine's muscle building effects.

Alpha-Lipoic acid treatment decreases serum lactate and pyruvate concentrations and improves glucose effectiveness in lean and obese patients with type 2 diabetes.

Konrad T; Vicini P; Kusterer K; H¨oflich A; Assadkhani A; B¨ohles HJ; Sewell A; Tritschler HJ; Cobelli C; Usadel KH

Department of Internal Medicine, J.W. Goethe-University, Frankfurt, Germany.

Diabetes Care, 22(2):280-7 1999 Feb

Abstract:

OBJECTIVE:

We examined the effect of lipoic acid (LA), a cofactor of the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (PDH), on insulin sensitivity (SI) and glucose effectiveness (SG) and on serum lactate and pyruvate levels after oral glucose tolerance tests (OGTTs) and modified frequently sampled intravenous glucose tolerance tests (FSIGTTs) in lean (n = 10) and obese (n = 10) patients with type 2 diabetes.

RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS:

FSIGTT data were analyzed by minimal modeling technique to determine SI and SG before and after oral treatment (600 mg, twice a day, for 4 weeks). Serum lactate and pyruvate levels of diabetic patients after glucose loading were compared with those of lean (n = 10) and obese (n = 10) healthy control subjects in which SI and SG were also determined from FSIGTT data.

RESULTS:

Fasting lactate and pyruvate levels were significantly increased in patients with type 2 diabetes. These metabolites did not exceed elevated fasting concentrations after glucose loading in lean patients with type 2 diabetes. However, a twofold increase of lactate and pyruvate levels was measured in obese diabetic patients. LA treatment was associated with increased SG in both diabetic groups (lean 1.28 +/- 0.14 to 1.93 +/- 0.13; obese 1.07 +/- 0.11 to 1.53 +/- 0.08 x 10(-2) min-1, P < 0.05). Higher SI and lower fasting glucose were measured in lean diabetic patients only (P < 0.05). Lactate and pyruvate before and after glucose loading were approximately 45% lower in lean and obese diabetic patients after LA treatment.

CONCLUSIONS:

Treatment of lean and obese diabetic patients with LA prevents hyperglycemia-induced increments of serum lactate and pyruvate levels and increases SG.

 

[Robboe]

Don't bother with CLA unless you're obese, have cancer or are a type I diabetic.

there's more chance of inducing insulin resistance if you're a healthy human being.

Glutamine = overrated.

ALA = good antioxidant.

Biotin is cheaper and possibly just as effective tho as far as increasing insulin sensitivty goes.

 

[hookdup]

Thanks Temple01
I've read countless of studies like this, but just don't understand it fully (sorry). Are you saying that ALA helps build muscle?
Do you have to take it with creatine?
Why is it a good thing that it allows glucose to get to the muscles? Is that because if it gets to the muscle it doesn't turn into body fat?
Sorry for all the questions but I want to understand everything I put into my body (no wise cracks please).

I've decided against CLA based on your recommendations and all the reading I've done today.

Robboe ... I've never heard of Biotin? I'll do a search, but can you give me some brief info?

Why is glutamine underrated. I had only heard good things before???

 

[Temple]

It increases the cells ability to soak up glucose.
Decreases the amount of insulin your body needs to excrete to shuttle nutrients into your cells. Taken post workout
Creates a nutrition partitioning effect which gives you more muscle gain/less fat gain.
It is an antioxidant.
Does this translate into being anticatabolic - I don't know.
Basically what it will do is make a really clean diet more effective in providing nutrients to your muscles and help with glucose disposal when you have an occasional carb slip up like eating that donut.

 

[hookdup]

Thanks for all your help Temple01. I think I'm getting it ... at least better than I was yesterday!

Okay well, I want to try it because I'm losing the weight but my bodyfat is so consistant that I'm going crazy.
I gotta keep some of this lean body mass!!!

So how much glutamine per day? And when (before and after my work out ... or just after?

How much ALA? And when?

I'm at 117 pds, 21% bf

Thanks

 

[Temple]

I know your primary interest here is in the supps but if you are losing a substancial amount of lean mass then something else is not right.
What exactly does your training/diet and cardio program look like?
How are you having your bodyfat measured? Where did you start as far as stats and where are you now?

 

[hookdup]

I'm trying to do the Body For Life program and have tried to stick to it just out of curiosity,

so this is my diet:
8:30 - 2 egg whites, 1 egg, 1 bowl instant oatmeal

11:00 - 1/2 protein shake, 1/2 yogurt

1:30 - chicken breast, veggies (bok choi, broccoli, etc.) 1/2 apple

5:00 - 1/2 protein shake, 1/2 yogurt

7:30 - 1:30 - chicken breast, veggies (bok choi, broccoli, etc.) 1 cup boiled sweet potato & 1.5 tbsp of flax seed oil.

9:00 - 1/2 protein shake, 2 melba toast wth 1 tsp of light cream cheese.

That's about 1400 cals on most days. (Sunday is a free / cheat day ... eat what I want)

TRAINING
Monday - 20 min HIIT cardio, 20 min moderate int. cardio
Tuesday - 1 hr. upper body weight training
Wednesday - 20 min HIIT cardio, 20 min moderate int. cardio
Thursday - 1 hr. lower body weight training
Friday - 20 min HIIT cardio, 20 min moderate int. cardio
Saturday - 1 hr. upper body weight training
Sunday - Free day

I started at about 125 pds & 23% body fat about 4 weeks ago and am 117% and about 21% body fat.

I'm using a Tanita scale for the body fat ... and I have heard that it may concentrate more on your lower body fat, in which case it might make sense that it's going so slow cause the lower body fat is the last to go, right?

Anyway, once this program is over I'm going to go to a 4 or 5 day split, I just wanted to see if this program was as good as they make it out to be.

 

[Temple]

I also did the BFL way back when. It is IMO a good place to start as it gets you into some cardio and some weight training but IMO is not the optimal way to train. If you feel you must stick it out for 12 weeks I would be interested to see what your stats are at the end. I personally ended up just feeling overtrained.
The tanita bodyfat scales are not that accurate from what I understand so I don't know if we can assume that you are dropping 1# of lean mass for every # of fat but if that is the case it is not what you want to be happening. I got MUCH better results when I did the following:
1. Increased calories to 2000-2500, you will probably retain some water at first until your body adjusts and your metabolism kicks in so stay away from the scale. This is critical - at 1400 your body is going to cling to the fat that it has as it thinks you are going to try to starve it to death.
2. cardio AM/ES 45 min moderate intensity work up to 1 hour. EOD
3. Change to a 4 day split now following the format that I gave PolarPixie or something similar - I do cardio in the morning and lifting at night so I am totally off EOD.
4. Starchy

 

[hookdup]

Yeah,
the only reason I'm continuing with BFL is purely curiosity. I actually don't think I'm working my muscles enough ... but as far as cardio, I added an extra 20 mins just cause 20 mins x 3 times per week seemed so little to me.
I am only using the Tanita scale to measure the bf difference, not really the bf. I might have to get the calipers done soon. I mean I can see abs ... not great, but better than anyone else at my gym ... sad, I know ... but I'm still at 21 - 22% ... should I be seeing any definition at that percentage?

Isn't 2000 too many cals?
My maintenance is about 1500 - 1600 so I'm afraid I'll gain weight (fat) at any more than that. I am trying to raise it to about about 1500 - 1600 though.

What is EOD.

Starchy ??? Are you saying my diet is too starchy? I'm trying to think of a replacement for the yogurt for a little snack. Fruit is too starchy too. One piece whole weat melba toast?

 

[Temple]

Sorry - I got a phone call and hit the post button before I was done.
Let me finish my thoughts and then I'll answer your questions.

Starchy carbs - before 2 pm, fibrous carbs after 2 pm. On weight training days if you lift in the evening eat some low glycemic carbs 1.5-2 hours before you lift.
Change the cheat day to a cheat meal - nobody needs that much cheating.
Change the instant oatmeal to the old fashioned kind - takes the same amount of time to cook in the microwave but the glycemic index is much lower on the old fashioned kind.

I want you to throw this maintenance calorie thing out the window - by adding lean mass you will restructure your metabolism and those formulas will no longer apply for all practical purposes. The only way to add lean mass and restructure the way that your body works is through hard training and adequate nutrition. If you are packing on too much fat then we can look at cycleing some carbs. It may feel like you have gone into neutral for a few weeks but ultimately these are the things that will make you very lean and be able to maintain it.

I'm not sure that the tanita is even a good method of judging variance.

I am going to have to do some checking but I think the type of cardio that you are doing is contributing to your muscle loss - try the 45-60 at moderate intensity and see what happens.

EOD = every other day

 

[VeggieLifterChick]

Temple,

You really think 2000 kcal is better than 1400 for fat loss? Is that true at any fat loss desired? I wonder about that because I thought 10-12x weight in lbs is the rule for "cutting."

 

[Robboe]

there's loads of reasons why i think glutamine is overrated, but i had a huge long running arguement on another board about this and explaining it all again doesn;t really appeal to me.

Biotin is a B vitamin.

i could give you some blerb about how it's good for hair and nails and whatever but i'd sound like a magazine.

if you do decide to take ALA, i;d suggest you check your diet for how much biotin you're getting down over the course of the day.

ALA and biotin have similar structures and use the same transport mechanism. taking any dose of ALA over 100mg and you could end up with with a biotin deficincey which could piss about with your levels of fatigue and screw up your training.

if you take a multi vit throughout the day maybe you don;t have anything to worry about.

IMO, the only supps worth taking are:

multi vit
extra vit C and E
cal/mag/zinc combo
protein powders, PB, flax, any kinda EFAs should really be considered part of diet rather than supplement regime.
creatine - maybe, but only if diet is well sorted.
green tea <---- this stuff rules.
glucosamine/chondroitin.

antioxidants if you feel you need them.

That's pretty much it.

 

[Temple]

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64969&highlight=introduction

Read this, reread it and when you think you understand it then read it some more!!! I spent 8 months fighting this concept and as a result had to spend alot of time replacing the muscle I had dieted off. Calorie restriction is never ever the answer to fat loss. At 1400 Calories your body believes that it is in for a fast and will hang onto your fat stores and catabolize your muscle, then when you up the calories your metabolism will be lower and more of what you eat will be stored as fat.

 

[hookdup]

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64969&highlight=introduction

Read this, reread it and when you think you understand it then read it some more!!!

You didn't tell me it was an all-day read. No work accomplished today ... oh well! I've got my priorities straight!

BUT You WIN

I will raise my calories ... more carbs (fibrous) and protein and I'll just up the cardio to an hour.

So here's the plan. Tell me what you think.
My BMR is 1300 cals and when you factor in a light activity factor, it is 1600.

If I eat around 1800 - 2000 cals per day and do 1 hour of cardio 3 x per week --- easily 600 cals per session.

???

Of course I'm also doing an hour of weights 3 x per week.

One question though what do you eat as a fibrous carb when it's your snack meal?
In other words, I eat breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snack.
When I have those "snack" meals, for lack of a better word I don't feel for cooked vegetables. That's why I've been relying on yogurt.
Do you have a better idea?

Oh and by the way,
I haven't said this yet but I really, really appreciate your help!
Thanks for being patient!

 

[Temple]

LOL - you're too easy girl. It took Warlobo and Iron God each with a big club to get that beat into my head.
Keep the cardio at moderate intensity - none of this high intensity stuff for now.
I would like to see you do an EOD plan if possible with cardio and lifting on the same day, cardio am/lifting pm but if that is not possible put your cardio and lifting on alternate days and take a full day off every 3 days. Bust your butt on the weights - THIS SHOULD BE YOUR PRIMARY FOCUS.
I usually just keep bags of raw vegetables around and munch on them in between.
My favorite snack is protein pancakes - just heat them and roll em up and eat them plain. Great with coffee.
Also and this is a big one ELIMINATE ALL SUGAR FROM YOUR DIET with the exception of a high glycemic post workout shake.
Don't freak out if you retain some water for the first few weeks, it is your bodies normal response but the cardio should help keep it in check.

Oh, and you are very welcome - I am simply passing along what others on this board did for me way back when and still do. I wish some of the older wiser folks would jump in here as well.

 

[Temple]

p.s. - those extra calories that aren't fitting into your BMR formula... that is what is going to build you some lean mass. You can't build muscle out of thin air and you can't build it from existing bodyfat stores. You must have enough additional calories to grow the muscle.

 

[VeggieLifterChick]

Honestly, Temple, I'm not totally convinced yet about this higher calorie thing, it seems too good to be true. However, I do know that you and Warlobo know your stuff, so I'm gonna try it out. I love food, I love eating, and so I can't stand restricting my calories. Plus, I actually like doin cardio. So, HookdUp, I'm first trying this stuff out too. I'm gonna keep it from 1650-2000 or so instead of 1450-1650 and see what happens. I'm lifting 4 times a week, 2 days on, one off, 2 days on again (low body multi-joint, upper body multi-joint, rest, low body unilateral, upper body unilateral, weekend off). I just started doing 30 mins cardio after weights, plus cardio on my wednesday rest day. I'll keep you updated on how it goes...

 

[Temple]

Just keep it clean and you'll be fine. I really do sympathize with what you are mentally going thru. For the longest time I firmly believed that these principals applied to every woman's body with the exception of mine. Ask ANY woman this board whose physique you admire how many calories they eat per day and it will be pretty consistent.

 

[hookdup]

Temple01

You rock!!!

I'm tweaking my diet, so I'm at about 1800 right now.
The only thing I need to do is replace the yogurt.
I guess I should just buy some broccoli or something to munch on.

The only meal that really is giving me a problem is the one before bed.
Honestly, I feel weird eating veggies that late. Is there another option or should I just shut up and stop whining?
I was hoping to do like a whole wheat melba toast with a tsp of light cream cheese but I'm guessing you guys are going to yell at me?
How about oatmeal?
OR what about all-bran buds???

Don't yell ... I promise I'll do as I'm told!

Now I'm off to find your training split.

Hey girl,
Thanks again!!!
YOU ROCK

 

[Temple]

LOL - you're funny!
Last meal of the day, hmmmmm. I usually munch on a chicken breast or have a protein shake. Maybe some lowfat cottage cheese. I buy the bags of chicken breasts and boil the whole bag at once, put in a ziplock bag and keep them in the fridge. I love them cold with a little salt and pepper. Hard boiled eggs, toss the yolks are also good with a bit of salt. We recently ordered some of the promeals and they aren't half bad...
A little yogurt isn't the end of the world - I personally hate the stuff so I don't know exactly what the ratios in it are.
Do you make protein pancakes? If not I can give you the recipe - I keep those in the fridge as well and eat them cold with a cup of coffee...
You are doing fine, hon. Just keep gradually bumping up the calories and don't overdo it on the cardio.

 

[hookdup]

Found the training split.

I'd love the recipe protein pancakes!!! Sounds yummy.
I had just always heard that you should have fibrous carbs that late and my mind associates fibrous carbs with leafy veggies.

But what I'd like to is eat something like a bit of bran buds with my protein shake.

This is the Nutritional values for a 1/4 cup of bran buds.

Calories 62.1
Calories from Fat 4.86
Total Fat 0.54g
Saturated Fat 0.09g
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.337g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.112g
Cholesterol 0mg
Sodium 149.85mg
Potassium 202.27mg
Total Carbohydrate 17.98g
Dietary Fiber 8.98g
Protein 2.11g

That's definitely fibrous

I'm lowering the cardio and I tried to begin your split this morning but even though I thought my left tricep was better, the pins and needles came back after a few chest exercises.

So I stopped ... I have an appointment with the doctor on Friday and then she'll refer me to a sports MD.

DAMN!!! No serious training until then