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AAS induced stroke?
- Thread starter Swole_2112
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HGH man
New member
Sorry I got here when I did cause I had a stroke (ICH) in Dec 98 because of stress and high BP I weighted 160#. I had done steroids once but that was when I was in H.S. I had lost control of my right side and speech too. I had worked out most of my life but it was off and on at best. My BP was being treated by my Dr. who is a endo that I see for a pituitary tumor (had since 86 but is a daed tumor according to him). At 1 time it was 190/110 that was before anything was done .It is now 135/72 and stays about there. About 3 years ago I decided to try some steroids to get the right side of my body even with the left. I did D-bol,EQ,Deca,Anavar,Test En, at different times,not altogether. I look more proportionate now and symetrical. The stroke has not fully left me but for almost 5 years I've been working out and trying to get my life back. It's tough. My cholesteral is 130 from a test I just had done in Dec. It was always lower ,that's why I never thought I'd have a stroke,but I did anyways.I feel that strokes are genetic because my father had 1 after me.He is about 79 and never had 1 before.No one in my family had a stroke before either. I never smoked,or ate at Mc.Ds or any off the places that are known to cause high BP or a bulging belly. Sensible eating habits work best for me now. I'm presently at 192# with 11% bf and I am about about 90% recovered from the stroke and take a baby asprin ED for the rest of my life. My Dr. tested me for GH and found me to be low so for the last 3½ years I've been on HGH and I feel that it has helped me recover from my stroke to some extent. It's a long tough road to recover,it best to get tested for high BP and watch cholesteral . With the many advances that are made in medicine it should be easier to make it through life.
poantrex said:
Have you read ANY studies done on men using testosterone?
I don't think you've spent ten minutes in your whole life reading any medical literature about steroids. Why don't you go to Anabolic Fitness and spend a few days reading the literature in the Bjaarki Library. It will open your eyes to how little you know about what you've been told. And consequently what you're saying.
I have already posted the literature I am referring to on several threads where people want to learn about testosterone's role. Below is one of the threads. You might want to scroll to the prostate section. Sorry I don't have the 2004 update to it right now but you'll get the idea from this one from 97.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359278
Ulter said:
I've read it all man. There are just as many studies showing a link between high DHT and prostate cancer as there are studies showing no conclusive link. I DO KNOW THIS THOUGH: SUPPRESSING DHT or androgens in general is the treatment used for prostate enlargement/cancer. HMM wonder why.
Here we go again. No, you don't know.
They lower estrogen in women with breast cancer too because the cancer feeds off of it. But estrogen is not the cause of the cancer.
They lower sex homones in men with prostate cancer because the cancer feeds off it. They are not the trigger or cause of the cancer.
You're just posting nonsense off the top of your head. You haven't read anything about the male use of testosterone or you wouldn't post goofy stuff like that.
They lower estrogen in women with breast cancer too because the cancer feeds off of it. But estrogen is not the cause of the cancer.
They lower sex homones in men with prostate cancer because the cancer feeds off it. They are not the trigger or cause of the cancer.
You're just posting nonsense off the top of your head. You haven't read anything about the male use of testosterone or you wouldn't post goofy stuff like that.
pharmguy
New member
Ulter said:
This is some funny shit. Only EQ causes blood thickening? Its called increase in hematocrit which all AAS do ( maybe EQ more than others) as they all stimulate eryhtrpoeisis. We can sticke are heads in the sand all day but I refuses to. AAS are harmful substances. I use and abuse them. They are not as bad as cocke heroin or cigarettes, and have some helpful effects. But if you think high doses of AAS don't cause several different kinds of cancer, hypertension, kidney disease, stroke and who knows what else, you are fooling yourself. When I have one of these things happen, and its not in my family history, I will know EXACTLY why, and so will you. Aspirin may help, but its not enough, milk thistle and ALA are not going to prevnt liver disease, and saw palmetteo or proscar is not going to prevent prostate cancer, not when you take the doses on ppl state on this board. Sorry to rain on your parades. Denial will go only so far.
Let the flaming beging:
PG
Ulter said:
This is true, the cause of prostate cancer is not known. But there is a ton of data showing that (dihydro)testosterone makes is grow and spread. I'm aware of newer studies showing that other hormones may be also responsible, but the participants of these studies also had high levels of DHT.
Most men do not feel any symptoms when they first get prostate cancer, and they won't know until its too late.
Most of what you posted I'll just ignore because you're simply stating your opinion and not arguing medical science. That's not a negative, it's just what I see there.
You're misquoting what I said. There's a lot of that on this thread. I said only EQ will raise your red blood cell count high enough to cause your blood to become restricted in the capillaries. I did not say it was the only AS to raise red blood cell count. So yes I am agreeing with you that EQ does this moreso than other AS.
You're misquoting what I said. There's a lot of that on this thread. I said only EQ will raise your red blood cell count high enough to cause your blood to become restricted in the capillaries. I did not say it was the only AS to raise red blood cell count. So yes I am agreeing with you that EQ does this moreso than other AS.
I have a whole laundry list of what men should test before they start cycling. But no one listens to it so I stopped posting it 4 years ago. PSA is certainly one of them. Steroids may be gas on the fire of prostate cancer and you should get regular check ups. Just like I recommend regular cardiac echo stress tests because AS use over time can cause your heart ventrical to grow too large. Which BTW is the only serious malady AS can cause all by itself. See, I admit there is something to be worried about with AS use.poantrex said:
The Heretic2
Banned
et2001 said:
Hey bro...YES! I was banned AGAIN over this thread. You can PM me if you want. I didn't get to read any other's.
The Heretic2
Banned
I have been banned 3 fucking times now. Once because of a differing opinion between an Admin. I did not get vulgur, cuss or threatening. He banned me. And twice over this thread. Everything I have written is here.
The Heretic2
Banned
Ulter said:Oh OK. Yeah you can't give the admins a hard time. I am glad it wasn't anything I said or you said to me. You can argue with me on my board if you want.
The last two times it WAS because of this thread. I'll pay your board a visit. BTW, did you get my PM from my other screename? If you replied I wasn't able to read it 'cause I was banned.
The Heretic2
Banned
That's cool bro. I realize that people get fired up over certain things. The "fool" comment did get me going for a sec though. LOL...I still don't see why I was banned over this thread though. Sounds like the Admin I had a differing opinion with is a pussy and can't handle anybody else's opinions. I mean because after all..he is an ADMIN and thus his opinion is always right. LOL
The Heretic2
Banned
yomama said:heretic I'm still waiting for your pictures, you claim you've been lifting for so many years, and yet, you have acomplished absolutely nothing.
Well, if a certain admin would stop banning me I could post them. No need to though. You're some punk kid with a small dick who will probably post someone else's pictures anyway. This is my last post to you, boy. Now run along and play outside. You'll get fat spending all day on the computer.
yomama said:heretic I'm still waiting for your pictures, you claim you've been lifting for so many years, and yet, you have acomplished absolutely nothing.
How old are you. Seriously. You're acting like a fucking child, man. GROW up please....Personal attacks aren't tolerated here, i'm going to notify an admin to deal with you.
Dieselgoku23
New member
Ohhh shit thanx guys for the info. Now I'm scared like mofo to hit my new cycle lol!!!!, I'm an athlete and do lots of running(sprinting) conditioning, now you hear athletes lately droping like flys with heart attacks and they were not even AAS users. I think I'm going to check my heart and cholesterol before my cycle!!!
quadkilla31
New member
Who really knows how we all are going to fair in the future from our aas usage. Are there risk to using roids yes, and it's each man's choice rather to go down that path or not. Who really knows for sure what is a cause or is related to aas for sure. It's rather you want to take that chance or not. You only live once so make the most out of it.
Big Rick Rock
istrator
The Heretic2 said:
I didn't ban you, your "The Heretic" account is still active and has always been.
Keep talking shit though... A lot easier to call somebody a "pussy" when you don't have to look at them face to face.
N
NRF
Guest
Bump
Let's get the medical studies posted then. 7 pages of "I'm right, and you're wrong".....doesn't give a very conclusive answer.
And btw, EQ does not increase RBC's the most, it's Anadrol(Oxymetholone). Which was originally developed to help children with sickle-cell anemia.
Let's get the medical studies posted then. 7 pages of "I'm right, and you're wrong".....doesn't give a very conclusive answer.
And btw, EQ does not increase RBC's the most, it's Anadrol(Oxymetholone). Which was originally developed to help children with sickle-cell anemia.
unclebully
New member
Steroids affect blood clotting factors, they affect blood pressure.
Put it this way they definatly didn't help.
A lot of these new guys need to get real about the possibilty of problems from AAS.
I know 2 guys who have had serious health problems who used AAS and one who died.
The one who died was in pumping iron.
I personally suffered a hematoma a couple of hours after having a surgery and have had prostate problems (im 25).
Put it this way they definatly didn't help.
A lot of these new guys need to get real about the possibilty of problems from AAS.
I know 2 guys who have had serious health problems who used AAS and one who died.
The one who died was in pumping iron.
I personally suffered a hematoma a couple of hours after having a surgery and have had prostate problems (im 25).
yomama said:
Thank you, finally you made a post without insulting someone or calling people names. Please continue with that.
The point is that AAS has the -potential- to cause many health problems if not used carefully. High RBC, liver tumors, high blood pressure (and the problems that it can bring), screwed lipid profiles (and the problems that can bring) are all very real problems that can be caused by AAS. Now, I would think that most people here are educated enough to know what to watch for, but I know many, many guys that ran year round without being careful, and now their health is fucked. And no, it wasn't due to genetic predisposition or anything like that...these guys all lived the bodybuilding lifestyle and ate clean all the time.
unclebully
New member
yomama said:
You are fucking retarded go away and play with your crayons.
thelegacy again
New member
if there is no family history then more than likely yes
Stroke happens either from a blood clot (most) or bleeding.
I have seen so many posts here with people having HDL of teens during their cycle.
If 3 months during every year your HDL is like that for several years, it will make a significant difference.
Testosterone causes significant salt retention. Any condition that does that will increase blood pressure in some people.
I am myself using AAS. So I am not against using AAS.
But you cannot put your head in the sand and deny all the risks.
You have to know the risks and manage them so that you don't get bad health cosequences. Those who don't take precautions, will pay the price.
I have seen so many posts here with people having HDL of teens during their cycle.
If 3 months during every year your HDL is like that for several years, it will make a significant difference.
Testosterone causes significant salt retention. Any condition that does that will increase blood pressure in some people.
I am myself using AAS. So I am not against using AAS.
But you cannot put your head in the sand and deny all the risks.
You have to know the risks and manage them so that you don't get bad health cosequences. Those who don't take precautions, will pay the price.
yomama
Banned
My cholesterol was fucked before I even started using steroids. I used to eat two buckets of ice cream per week. McDonalds was my favorite, so was whole eggs. So, if I was to have a heart attack, would I blame it on steroids down the road? or my eating habits?!poantrex said:
Not all bodybuilders eat clean, there are plenty out there that dont know what they are doing, plenty out there that never get tested in a clinic. Plenty that dont know the side effects of long term use. Those are the ones that get in trouble.poantrex said:
Numbnuts, you have no idea what you're talking about. You should consider a career at MSNBC, I bet they would hire an idiot like you.unclebully said:
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NRF
Guest
I see the cholesterol debate is still raging on.
To further combat any chance of your arteries becoming filled dwith plaque, and increasing your BP i.e. (Same amount of blood mass, but less space for it to go through..therefore arteries expand, and therefore so does pressure to a degree. Depends on the size of your plaque deposits.), is to take Green Tea.
With low HDL, your ability to break up that everyday plaque is comproised, and LDL cholesterol oxidizes again, and again.
Green Tea prevents LDL from oxidizing to form plaque in the arteries to a point, so it would definitaly be a critical supplement to take if you're on AAS that make your HDL go below 20.
While I agree that long-term high BP is VERY problematic, and dangerous. I don't think AAS induce stroke directly. Indirectly, with other factors (Like already mentioned diet), it can IMO cause a stroke. But directly? No.
Only EPO can give you a heart attack. Not even Anadrol is potent enough to raise your Hematocrit over 60. Only EPO is.
To further combat any chance of your arteries becoming filled dwith plaque, and increasing your BP i.e. (Same amount of blood mass, but less space for it to go through..therefore arteries expand, and therefore so does pressure to a degree. Depends on the size of your plaque deposits.), is to take Green Tea.
With low HDL, your ability to break up that everyday plaque is comproised, and LDL cholesterol oxidizes again, and again.
Green Tea prevents LDL from oxidizing to form plaque in the arteries to a point, so it would definitaly be a critical supplement to take if you're on AAS that make your HDL go below 20.
While I agree that long-term high BP is VERY problematic, and dangerous. I don't think AAS induce stroke directly. Indirectly, with other factors (Like already mentioned diet), it can IMO cause a stroke. But directly? No.
Only EPO can give you a heart attack. Not even Anadrol is potent enough to raise your Hematocrit over 60. Only EPO is.
GoldenDelicious
New member
right i read about half the responses and saw a bunch of flames, and arguments for nothing
AAS can cause stroke via a few modes, as described by some people here. atherosclerosis is one of the mechanisms, because despite what has been said in this thread, AAS WILL affect blood lipid profiles, and therefore affect atherosclerosis. AAS will also alter electrolyte levels, which, depending on what is happening to blood volume and blood movement at the time, may indeed precipitate a stroke via a blowout (ie high blood pressure leading to a bleed in the brain) OR may concentrate/stagnate clotting factors sufficiently to cause a blood clot, which may lodge in the brain and hence cause a stroke. furthermore, the change in red blood cell numbers will play a role, in regards to blood viscocity, and decreased clotting threshold (meaning you get clots more easily).
on the other hand, a clotting disorder can certainly cause a stroke, through the production of a blood clot somewhere or other that ends up in the brain. no worries, this can happen easily.
as for the cause of this guys particular stroke, well, no one will know unless they invent a time machine, and some sort of total body blood clot or bleed detector at the precise moment the patient developed the abnormality that precipitated teh stroke.
so STFU already. both will do it with ease, ad for those talking about doses etc of steroids that will do it, ANY AAS will affect at least one of the factors i have spoken about, and therefore highten stroke risk. you can use ANY steroid you want, and the increase in muscle volumre etc, at some point, will change body vasculature and peripheral resistance to blood movement, and will therefore affect blood stagnation and the concentrating of clotting factors, thereby increasing risk of a clot.
so quit with the flames already
AAS can cause stroke via a few modes, as described by some people here. atherosclerosis is one of the mechanisms, because despite what has been said in this thread, AAS WILL affect blood lipid profiles, and therefore affect atherosclerosis. AAS will also alter electrolyte levels, which, depending on what is happening to blood volume and blood movement at the time, may indeed precipitate a stroke via a blowout (ie high blood pressure leading to a bleed in the brain) OR may concentrate/stagnate clotting factors sufficiently to cause a blood clot, which may lodge in the brain and hence cause a stroke. furthermore, the change in red blood cell numbers will play a role, in regards to blood viscocity, and decreased clotting threshold (meaning you get clots more easily).
on the other hand, a clotting disorder can certainly cause a stroke, through the production of a blood clot somewhere or other that ends up in the brain. no worries, this can happen easily.
as for the cause of this guys particular stroke, well, no one will know unless they invent a time machine, and some sort of total body blood clot or bleed detector at the precise moment the patient developed the abnormality that precipitated teh stroke.
so STFU already. both will do it with ease, ad for those talking about doses etc of steroids that will do it, ANY AAS will affect at least one of the factors i have spoken about, and therefore highten stroke risk. you can use ANY steroid you want, and the increase in muscle volumre etc, at some point, will change body vasculature and peripheral resistance to blood movement, and will therefore affect blood stagnation and the concentrating of clotting factors, thereby increasing risk of a clot.
so quit with the flames already
GoldenDelicious
New member
NRF said:I see the cholesterol debate is still raging on.
To further combat any chance of your arteries becoming filled dwith plaque, and increasing your BP i.e. (Same amount of blood mass, but less space for it to go through..therefore arteries expand, and therefore so does pressure to a degree. Depends on the size of your plaque deposits.), is to take Green Tea.
With low HDL, your ability to break up that everyday plaque is comproised, and LDL cholesterol oxidizes again, and again.
Green Tea prevents LDL from oxidizing to form plaque in the arteries to a point, so it would definitaly be a critical supplement to take if you're on AAS that make your HDL go below 20.
While I agree that long-term high BP is VERY problematic, and dangerous. I don't think AAS induce stroke directly. Indirectly, with other factors (Like already mentioned diet), it can IMO cause a stroke. But directly? No.
Only EPO can give you a heart attack. Not even Anadrol is potent enough to raise your Hematocrit over 60. Only EPO is.
fonz, fuck off already you fucking idiot. someone do me a favour and ban this dickhead. again.
so much for the no flames
unclebully
New member
unclebully said:
yomama said:
So I take it you believe steroids don't affect the prostate or blood clotting factors?
LMFAO are you for fucking real?
Read the last post by goldendelicious, if you are able to understand it (which I very much doubt) then you will realize what a fucking tit your making of yourself.
unclebully
New member
GoldenDelicious said:
Thankyou!
"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to GoldenDelicious again."
The Heretic2
Banned
Big Rick Rock said:
Nope. Still banned. Besides, what made you think I was referring to you? I called "SOMEONE" a pussy. You gonna automatically jump to the plate and accept that title?
And it's real easy to ban someone when you don't have to face them too.
GoldenDelicious
New member
hey buddy look up the username fonz and ahve a read before you open your mouth and make judgements about what is right an what is wronggjohnson5 said:
black_stripe1658
New member
bros no sense in getting banned over debates we are here to help each other.
GoldenDelicious
New member
actually, public humiliation and agressive intolerance is appropriate in fonz's case, because it will go further in keeping him off the board than politely informing the mods to again reban him - its lets him know in no uncertain terms that he is not welcome, and that his charletanism will not be tolerated. this is important in the case of people who do not know fonz and are not familiar with his mental disorder - flaming someone brings attention to them and makes people look hard at them, thereby saving people from potentially being sucked in by his bullshit and causing themselves harm - we are, after all, dealing with an individual who suggested DNP use to a group of anorexic girls, for goodness sakes.gjohnson5 said:
so anyway, if you want to bomb me, go for it, i doubt youll get enough people to do the same before your own bomb expires.
as a gesture of good faith, im not going to tell you to jam your bomb up your arse, you knobgobbling asslicker, like i normally would
nice bloke, hey
GoldenDelicious said:actually, public humiliation and agressive intolerance is appropriate in fonz's case, because it will go further in keeping him off the board than politely informing the mods to again reban him - its lets him know in no uncertain terms that he is not welcome, and that his charletanism will not be tolerated. this is important in the case of people who do not know fonz and are not familiar with his mental disorder - flaming someone brings attention to them and makes people look hard at them, thereby saving people from potentially being sucked in by his bullshit and causing themselves harm - we are, after all, dealing with an individual who suggested DNP use to a group of anorexic girls, for goodness sakes.
so anyway, if you want to bomb me, go for it, i doubt youll get enough people to do the same before your own bomb expires.
as a gesture of good faith, im not going to tell you to jam your bomb up your arse, you knobgobbling asslicker, like i normally would
nice bloke, hey
gjohnson5
New member
GoldenDelicious said:actually, public humiliation and agressive intolerance is appropriate in fonz's case, because it will go further in keeping him off the board than politely informing the mods to again reban him - its lets him know in no uncertain terms that he is not welcome, and that his charletanism will not be tolerated. this is important in the case of people who do not know fonz and are not familiar with his mental disorder - flaming someone brings attention to them and makes people look hard at them, thereby saving people from potentially being sucked in by his bullshit and causing themselves harm - we are, after all, dealing with an individual who suggested DNP use to a group of anorexic girls, for goodness sakes.
so anyway, if you want to bomb me, go for it, i doubt youll get enough people to do the same before your own bomb expires.
as a gesture of good faith, im not going to tell you to jam your bomb up your arse, you knobgobbling asslicker, like i normally would
nice bloke, hey
I can bomb you multiple times...
GoldenDelicious
New member
im sure you can.gjohnson5 said:
i mean, it makes perfect sense that a guy who can swallow his boyfriends load multiple times consecutively has the capacity to press the mere red K button more than once
GoldenDelicious
New member
Yasmina said:ohh nooo, i was laughing at GD he has such a way of expressing himself...
he thinks he knows it all, no?
do you like roses? I love roses here is one
i aint coming back to this thread again, promise...
you got my back, dontcha yasmina?
thats right, look out mofos, its the golden yasmina tag team gonna go to toooooown on your arses
traitor lol
geoboy
New member
poantrex said:
they are rethinking this. its not DHT they suppress, its test. there are some studies showing endogenous DHT (direct) actually causes SHRINKAGE. in older men, there are lower levels of test and it aromatizes at a higher rate (meaniong more E). I know when I take a high dht aas I get no BPH, but when I take a high aromatizable AAS I get a swollen prostate.
check this http://tsangenterprise.com/news75.htm
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natty
Guest
Heretic got banned for talking bad about steroids because this site is trying to sell books about steroids and how to get them so its a conflict of interest.
G
Gambino
Guest
natty said:
negative talk of aas on this site usually gets reacted to with hostility...
mrplunkey
New member
Doesn't the duration of your elevated BP have a massive effect on the risks associated with elevated BP? For example, aren't there a lot of studies that show breath-holding and the temporary elevation of BP during resistance overloading doesn't increase risk of anurism (one form of stroke)?
I know when I do an overloaded pull-over and grind out those last 2-3, I'll even breath hold and pressurize my entire body for the pull. I get up from the bench as red as a beet, light headed, seeing stars. I'm sure my BP is 220/150 or more -- but only for a few moments.
Isn't the effect with AAS similar? Even if you are on a regimen that is elevating your BP, it's a transient effect that may last 4, 6 or even 10 weeks -- not something you're going to live with for the next 10 years.
I know I made a jump from 2-3 minutes of elevated BP to 4-10 weeks, but wouldn't we see more lifters (particularly AAS users) dropping dead in weight rooms if elevated BP levels from lifting/steriods were that dangerous?
I know when I do an overloaded pull-over and grind out those last 2-3, I'll even breath hold and pressurize my entire body for the pull. I get up from the bench as red as a beet, light headed, seeing stars. I'm sure my BP is 220/150 or more -- but only for a few moments.
Isn't the effect with AAS similar? Even if you are on a regimen that is elevating your BP, it's a transient effect that may last 4, 6 or even 10 weeks -- not something you're going to live with for the next 10 years.
I know I made a jump from 2-3 minutes of elevated BP to 4-10 weeks, but wouldn't we see more lifters (particularly AAS users) dropping dead in weight rooms if elevated BP levels from lifting/steriods were that dangerous?
mrplunkey said:
Good grief man, having elevated BP for 10 weeks is far worse than having bad BP during a set of pullups.
And you're assuming that everyone does 8-10 week cycles....I know a ton of guys in the gym that are never off. I personally believe that 8-10 week cycles can still be damaging due to plaque buildup, too.
mrplunkey
New member
I agree, but wouldn't the jump from 3 minutes to 10 weeks be comparable to the jump from 10 weeks to 10 years? If a vessel popping were a simple issue of reaching a certain pressure, wouldn't a single breath-holding set do it well before you ever used any AAS? My only real point was that the duration of BP elevation seems to play some significant role -- whether it be minutes, weeks or years.poantrex said:
Also, isn't plaque build-up by definition a long-term process?
bigtbone
New member
I'm jumping in here late but there are several points I want to make such that I don't even know where to begin. But Ulter is right here.
First, the man stated he had a rare blood condition in which he is hypercoagulable. That IS the most likely cause of his stroke regardless of a lack of family history. Antiphospholipid antibodies, deficiencies of protein S or C, and presence of antithrombin 3 are the most common "rare" hypercoagulable conditions and all predispose to stroke. And, this would cause an ischemic stroke, not a hemorrhagic stroke which Heretic is referring to.
Yes Heretic, hemorrhagic stroke is the 3rd most common cause of stroke but that does not mean it is a common cause of stroke. Only 10% of strokes are hemorrhagic strokes. Yes, hypertension is a cause of hemorrhagic stroke, but one would have to have CHRONIC hypertension. The mechanism is that chronic hypertension causes intimal hyperplasia with hyalinosis in the vessel wall which predisposes to focal necrosis, causing breaks in the wall of the vessel. This can lead to subclinical leaks and massive hemorrhage can occur when the clotting system is unable to compensate for the disruption in the vessel wall.
The mild elevation in BP one may experience with AAS is not significant enough in value or, MORE IMPORTANTLY, in duration to cause such a process. Your average AAS cycle is only 8 weeks long!! And, unless they have pre-existing HTN or risk factors for such (like smoking, ongoing hyperlipidemia, familial HTN, etc), the large majority of AAS users will not have elevations in BP beyond the point of high-normal (130-139/85-89). The Framingham Heart Study (which is THE definitive study) found that the hazard ratio for a cardiovascular event after TEN YEARS for those with high-normal BP is 1.6 for men. This was for all forms of CVD. So that for stroke alone is even lower. This was TEN YEARS! Even if one does experience higher BP levels, eight weeks is not long enough in duration for the process described above to occur.
The same is true for altered lipid profiles and atherosclerosis. A temporary decrease in HDL is not significant enough to lead to stroke in a previously healthy person. Plaque formation and rupture requires time and chronicity.
To say that things cannot happen in medicine is crazy. Ulter is not saying it cannot happen. Hell anything CAN happen. He is saying it is highly unlikely and is being realistic; he is right. As far as Heretic's reference to the paper which states some athletes have had stroke with prolonged use, they say earlier in the paragraph that much of the evidence is anecdotal (at best) concerning the side effects of AAS. And, I've read the case report which that paper is referring to and, if I remember correctly, it was two athletes. You cannot show causality without a prospective cohort study. They cannot argue AAS is causative of stroke, only that those two athletes happen to be taking AAS and had a stroke. The number of people who have used AAS is enourmous. How many case reports are there of stroke in AAS users? Such a lower number that it is statistically insignificant and one could find a just as strong a correlation among such cases and the use of some benign substance they may all just happen to be taking (like water, to be extreme).
Next, proantrex, absolutey no correlation has been found between testosterone or DHT and the development of prostate cancer. I have given several presentations in endocrinology conferences regarding this. There is no elevation in PSA (a marker for prostate cancer) either. It isn't even debated anymore. Therapy with testosterone does, however, result in worse outcomes in those who have pre-existing prostate cancer. Also, your allegation that DHT is particularly bad is way off base and exactly the opposite. Studies have shown that DHT therapy results in less prostate stimulation than testosterone and can even cause regression. The theory is that ESTROGEN is the true culprit and that prostatic hypertrophy is actually a result of aromatization of testosterone to estrogen. DHT is not aromatizable and hence has less stimulation on the prostate. In fact, I am a member of a team currently conducting a clinical study involving this very issue.
First, the man stated he had a rare blood condition in which he is hypercoagulable. That IS the most likely cause of his stroke regardless of a lack of family history. Antiphospholipid antibodies, deficiencies of protein S or C, and presence of antithrombin 3 are the most common "rare" hypercoagulable conditions and all predispose to stroke. And, this would cause an ischemic stroke, not a hemorrhagic stroke which Heretic is referring to.
Yes Heretic, hemorrhagic stroke is the 3rd most common cause of stroke but that does not mean it is a common cause of stroke. Only 10% of strokes are hemorrhagic strokes. Yes, hypertension is a cause of hemorrhagic stroke, but one would have to have CHRONIC hypertension. The mechanism is that chronic hypertension causes intimal hyperplasia with hyalinosis in the vessel wall which predisposes to focal necrosis, causing breaks in the wall of the vessel. This can lead to subclinical leaks and massive hemorrhage can occur when the clotting system is unable to compensate for the disruption in the vessel wall.
The mild elevation in BP one may experience with AAS is not significant enough in value or, MORE IMPORTANTLY, in duration to cause such a process. Your average AAS cycle is only 8 weeks long!! And, unless they have pre-existing HTN or risk factors for such (like smoking, ongoing hyperlipidemia, familial HTN, etc), the large majority of AAS users will not have elevations in BP beyond the point of high-normal (130-139/85-89). The Framingham Heart Study (which is THE definitive study) found that the hazard ratio for a cardiovascular event after TEN YEARS for those with high-normal BP is 1.6 for men. This was for all forms of CVD. So that for stroke alone is even lower. This was TEN YEARS! Even if one does experience higher BP levels, eight weeks is not long enough in duration for the process described above to occur.
The same is true for altered lipid profiles and atherosclerosis. A temporary decrease in HDL is not significant enough to lead to stroke in a previously healthy person. Plaque formation and rupture requires time and chronicity.
To say that things cannot happen in medicine is crazy. Ulter is not saying it cannot happen. Hell anything CAN happen. He is saying it is highly unlikely and is being realistic; he is right. As far as Heretic's reference to the paper which states some athletes have had stroke with prolonged use, they say earlier in the paragraph that much of the evidence is anecdotal (at best) concerning the side effects of AAS. And, I've read the case report which that paper is referring to and, if I remember correctly, it was two athletes. You cannot show causality without a prospective cohort study. They cannot argue AAS is causative of stroke, only that those two athletes happen to be taking AAS and had a stroke. The number of people who have used AAS is enourmous. How many case reports are there of stroke in AAS users? Such a lower number that it is statistically insignificant and one could find a just as strong a correlation among such cases and the use of some benign substance they may all just happen to be taking (like water, to be extreme).
Next, proantrex, absolutey no correlation has been found between testosterone or DHT and the development of prostate cancer. I have given several presentations in endocrinology conferences regarding this. There is no elevation in PSA (a marker for prostate cancer) either. It isn't even debated anymore. Therapy with testosterone does, however, result in worse outcomes in those who have pre-existing prostate cancer. Also, your allegation that DHT is particularly bad is way off base and exactly the opposite. Studies have shown that DHT therapy results in less prostate stimulation than testosterone and can even cause regression. The theory is that ESTROGEN is the true culprit and that prostatic hypertrophy is actually a result of aromatization of testosterone to estrogen. DHT is not aromatizable and hence has less stimulation on the prostate. In fact, I am a member of a team currently conducting a clinical study involving this very issue.
The Heretic2
Banned
bigtbone said:
Very well written bigtbone, but I have to disagree. The simple truth is that some people can withstand things that others may not. Crack can kill some people on the first try, yet some people smoke it for years. Ulter is not "right". I have never even insinuated that I am right. All I have written is that it is possible for a person to have a stroke because of AAS use. What is my rational? High BP. High BP, even for short periods can cause stroke and AAS can cause high BP. As I have written earlier, I have treated stroke patients that have had high BP for less than a year. Young, healthy people. I'm not really sure why some here want to dismiss these things, but natty may have a point.
On another note, I use AAS. I am not against the use of AAS. So why would I be so sensative on this subject? It's because I have seen what high BP, even short term high BP can do to SOME people. It's that simple.
Thanks bigTbone, I haven't seen you in a while.
Heretic, At this point you're not even arguing the points being made you're just saying "I am right" "he is not right". The phrase you keep ignoring is "statistically insignificant". The cases you may have treated are an anomoly aren't representative of the statistics of the general population nor do they represent the statistics of the body building community which BTW has a lower incidence of stroke than the general population.
I am not going to pretend I could have written bigTbone's post if you gave me all day but it certainly gives a wonderful explanation of what I was posting. Unless you're planning to debate those points individually this is over.
Thanks again for your participation, it was fun.
Heretic, At this point you're not even arguing the points being made you're just saying "I am right" "he is not right". The phrase you keep ignoring is "statistically insignificant". The cases you may have treated are an anomoly aren't representative of the statistics of the general population nor do they represent the statistics of the body building community which BTW has a lower incidence of stroke than the general population.
I am not going to pretend I could have written bigTbone's post if you gave me all day but it certainly gives a wonderful explanation of what I was posting. Unless you're planning to debate those points individually this is over.
Thanks again for your participation, it was fun.
Last edited:
The Heretic2
Banned
OK Ulter....here goes....
bigtbone said:
The Heretic2
Banned
^^^^
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