A Startling Admission...

[Blood&Iron]

Today was leg day. Several weeks ago, after suffering some slight twinges in my back, I realized my squat form had broken down, so I dropped my poundage back by 100lbs. and started trying to work my way up again gradually with perfect form. Previously I had been doing 3-5 reps on my work set. I upped this to 6-8 and actually upped my TUL's for all my leg exercises, using considerably slower cadences for all my work sets. To make a long story short, this made my leg workouts more like they used to be, i.e. much more painful. It took until today for me to realize something; I AM NO LONGER A HITter. This is not something of which I'm proud, merely a statement of fact. Despite having argued with numerous people on this board about what exactly is meant by HIT, I really think it lies in minimal rest, very low volume, and pushing yourself to your limits. If you're resting more than 1-2 minutes between sets, performing excessive warm-ups, or keeping your TUL's short I don't think it's HIT. I can tell when I've performed a HIT workout because it feels like my head is about to explode, and my muscles have been liquified. I can't stand, I can't even sit and be comfortable. There's no respite from the pain. It's like I've gone into anaphylactic shock. This is how almost every workout for the past 3 years has been for me. Yet still, I didn't consider my workouts intense enough, so about 6-7 months ago I hired a trainer to supervise my workouts and push me even harder. Instead he suggested I try a very different approach, involving warm-ups, resting between sets, a faster cadence, etc. I decided to give it a shot, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. They weren't staggeringly better than some of my previous gains, but I actually enjoyed working out, rather than dreading it. So I've been continuing in this fashion for the past 6-7 months. Still I called what I was doing HIT. But today I finally realized it wasn't. I have noticed that while in the previous 3 years I suffered no twinges and no pains, in the past 6-7 months I noticed a plethora of warning signs that the speeded up cadences and higher volume are taking a toll on my body. Nothing major, but certainly a great deal more "bad" soreness than previously. Unfortunately, I also developed something of an ego regarding my poundages which previously I never had. It used to be I could be curling little pink dumbbells and not give a fuck, but now I worry that using less weight will cause my muscles to atrophy(Intellectually I think this incorrect.) I'd like to go back to HIT, but frankly I enjoy working out as I do it now, and have a hard time considering going back to extreme pain entailed by true HIT. Maybe that makes me a wimp. I don't know. Anyways, not sure what the point of all this was, but just wanted to share my experiences with others.

 

[DaCypher]

Interesting... I find the "extreme pain" as you call it (I don't call it pain, I call it a challenge) to be somewhat enjoyable. Call me a masochist if you want, but I find that I could workout no other way. Not only have I not been able to match the results that I've achieved thus far with any other style of training, but I find that I have been enjoying my workouts more than ever (partly because of my results). I can, however, definetly understand how some people would not prefer HIT because of the incrediblely strenuous and "painful" workouts. If you've found something that works well for you and you enjoy it, then you should stick with it. Everybody is different so there is no one magic style that will be for everyone. Keep working hard...

 

[Blood&Iron]

DaCypher-

I'm not sure how long you've been using HIT but I too found, at one time, the pain somewhat enjoyable. Pain or intensity, take your pick, became my raison d'etre, and over several years my intensity grew and grew. I am of the opinion, as expressed by Ken Hutchins(originator of SuperSlow), that if you're really working out intensely it is impossible to enjoy it. I can't think of a single person who enjoys vomiting or lapsing into unconsciousness. The effects of a single, or even several very intense sets is quite different from the metabolic overload of a truly intense workout.

 

[DaCypher]

Well, I have yet to pass out or vomit from doing an intense set/workout, so its possible my idea of intense isn't nearly as great as some may do. I have only been using HIT for 2 months now, so its also possible (and probable) that I'm still enjoying the new routine and still gaining the benefits from it because its so new. When I do my sets to my idea of true failure (physically unable to exert any more force) I reach a natural "high." I guess in some people this causes vomiting and unconsciousness, however I have yet to experience this. I would assume some day I will grow tired/sick of this intensity and will probably, like you, have to change my style of training to a less HITish methodology.

 

[Blood&Iron]

BTW, I've never vomited or passed out myself. I've come very close, and stood over the toilet for 20-30 minutes waiting to puke, but I usually pulled back a little when I felt impending spewage(A few times I done the old regurgitation into the throat bit though. Yum.) Intellectually I never really thought puking and the like could be good, but still I sort of viewed it as proof of really taking things to the limit. That was actually my goal in hiring trainers to supervise my workouts from time to time, namely to have someone push me past when I might otherwise pull back. Every one of them said I was the most intense trainer they had ever seen(this included a guy who was training for the SEALs who commented "Maybe you get good results, but to me its not worth it that kind of pain." That's still makes me slightly proud.) But I'm not shit compared to some of the accounts I've read on Cyberpump. But as the trainer who changed my ways commented "HIT guys think that the person whoever is working the hardest gets the best results, and I don't really think that's true." If you haven't at least become very nauseous though, I have to say you aren't training all that intensely. I started a friend on a HIT routine, and after the first exercise he had to run to the bathroom to throw up. But then, he had me overseeing his workouts...

One final great quote from Arthur Jones, the father of HIT
"If you haven't vomited from a set of barbell curls, you don't know what intensity is."

 

[DaCypher]

Damn, all these wasted non-vomit inducing workouts. Seriously though, I guess I'm not really that intense if I'm not experiencing any of those symptoms. I could definetly understand not enjoying working out if those conditions occurred on a regular basis. You sound incredibly hardcore, I hope to one day reach that intensity (I guess I'm not there mentally yet since my failure doesn't seem to compare to yours). When that day occurs, I will probably want to quit using HIT, because it seems very unpleasant. Until then I'll continue with my semi-HITish style because it seems to be working for me, and I'm enjoying it.

Its funny that he mentions barbell curls, because that exercise in particular bothers me a bit. I've always though it had to do with the fact the my lungs weren't able to fully expand because of the additional pressure from arms on them (this is especially the case when doing preacher curls).

 

[Blood&Iron]

When that day occurs, I will probably want to quit using HIT, because it seems very unpleasant. Until then I'll continue with my semi-HITish style because it seems to be working for me, and I'm enjoying it.

If it works AND you enjoy it, that's the best of both worlds. While it was very unpleasant I kept at it for a couple of years, and might still be doing things that way if not for the trainer. I might well go back to it too. I just have to work up the nerve. Half the reason I don't want to go back to that way of doing things is that I REALLY enjoy my workouts now(Well, except for leg day.) so I'd be giving up something I enjoy AND doing something very painful. But if you're really dedicated to bodybuilding, you can endure almost anything. Pain is irrelevant.

 

[gymtime]

B&I - You have sold out to the dark side. Change your name to Water&TinFoil. Come back into the light before it's too late!!!

 

[Blood&Iron]

B&I - You have sold out to the dark side. Change your name to Water&TinFoil. Come back into the light before it's too late!!!

That's a bit harsh.
Anyways, I still train pretty intensely. During my last couple leg workouts I've felt pretty nauseous and light headed. Happy? Plus I had to listen to 'Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" while squatting today. I thought I'd puke before I even got the bar off the rack.

 

[DaCypher]

What exactly do you do to get your workouts that intense to make you want to throw up? I've always thought my workouts were pretty tough, I couldn't imagine making them any more intense, I wouldn't know how.

 

[Belial]

Easy. Valsalva maneuver. During every rep.

Also, don't drink any water before you go.

 

[Blood&Iron]

Easy. Valsalva maneuver. During every rep.

Also, don't drink any water before you go.

Uhh...no.
I'm very good about breathing. When I first started lifting I accidentally did the Valsalva maneuver while doing leg-presses. It didn't make me nauseous, but did give me horrible throbbing pain in the back of my skull due to the astronomic rise in blood pressure. And I am always quite well hydrated, though I'm not aware how merely not drinking water before lifting could cause nausea. Severe dehydration might do it though.

DaCyper-
I really think intensity is a mindset. When I first started doing HIT, I had only been training about 3-4 months. I was doing laughably high volume: 2-hour full body workouts 3X a week, and running 3 miles and doing push-ups and sit-ups on my off days. When I first read about HIT on Cyberpump I didn't understand how it differed from normal lifting. 1-3 sets. Full body workouts. What the hell makes this "high-intensity", I wondered. It really is the mindset with which you approach each set. Approach each set as if you're life depended on it. I'm not sure I can explain any better than that. I still focus 110% on each set; the biggest difference in how I currently train is that I rest much longer between sets, waiting until I feel fully recovered before performing any work set. I used to race between machines only pausing to load and unload bars, maybe giving myself 20-30 seconds to catch my breath, and then doing the next exercise(1 set each) I remember once doing leg-presses for 20, rushing to do lat-pulldowns, and BAM it was over. I had to lie down, I physically couldn't complete the rest of my workout--well, I could have but it would have resulted in the gym floor being covered in vomit. Before squatting I would always read Sean Toohey's "The Battle for 20" about 20 rep squatting, which I had printed out and kept in my workout log book. Read the accounts on Cyberpump. Everytime I went into the gym I would compare myself with those guys, and I realized I cut a pretty poor figure. When your just sort of flinging the weights around(and I even call 2-4 cadences flinging) your mind isn't totally on the current set. The easiest way I know to achieve absolute intensity is to use SuperSlow(Though they've amended the cadence to 10-10 I still use 10-4. 10-10 only works on very high quality machines that have very low friction.) Do leg-presses at a 10-4 cadence (Squats are near impossible at this speed due to considerations of balance.) and aim for a 6-8 reps. When your body starts to shutdown and the pain becomes unbearable just focus on contracting the muscle, keep moving. For me thought ceases at this point, there is no longer I, only the weight. Breath. Focus. Contract the muscle. Only stop when you've been pushing for a good 15 seconds without budging the weight stack. If you can stand after this you did something wrong. You most likely will also feel nauseous, although maybe not. Approach EVERY set like this, and you will achieve the sort of intensity of which I spoke about above. Of course, I only ever had the severe nausea occur with full body workouts, which I used to do exclusively, or on leg days. I don't personally agree with the Jones quote about arm curls I posted above. You really have to be stimulating quite a large quantity of muscle mass to get the pukey feeling--or as I like to call it the "God, let me die" feeling.
If you try any of this, tell me what happens.

 

[DaCypher]

Valsalva maneuver? What is that?

I always figured if you drink enough water and breathe properly you shouldn't feel the need to vomit/pass out.

 

[Blood&Iron]

The Valsalva maneuver is when you hold your breath during exertion, or exhale against a closed epiglottis(Usually this happens when grunting.) This results in elevated pressure in the abdominal and thoracic cavities and interferes with blood returning to the heart. This in turn can deprive the brain of blood and cause one to loose consciousness.

 

[Belial]

It was a joke, B&I.

 

[Blood&Iron]

It was a joke, B&I.

This has been a problem with some other posts too. My sense of humor comes and goes. Mostly goes though.

 

[Grizzly]

I guess that would explain why our workout philosophies seem so similar despite the fact that I don't do HIT, eh Blood&Iron? And all along you were telling me that I was doing HIT. Sheesh! The short rest is the real kicker in the crotch for me. When I'm going heavy I like to have my 2 1/2 minutes.

Well, dudes, I can tell you that, even with higher volume, you can still faint and puke. I've only come close to passing out, but I think that's becaue I forgot to breath while doing heavy ass deads. As for puking, I've done that a couple of times. Usually on leg day, but occasionally, I've felt like I was going to puke on arm day.

Oh, let me add one thing. Perhaps, it's trivial, but I've been wanting to say something since I noticed it and I just haven't found the right thread. The title of the book is "Thus Spake Zarathustra." Just so you know.

 

[DaCypher]

Blood&Iron,
That seems incredibly hardcore. I don't think I'm ready for that kind of workout. Seems more than necessary really. I've always rested a few minutes between sets. I figure if I'm still fatigued from the last set I'm not going to be able to push myself as hard on the next set and I'll be cutting myself short. I've been wanting to do 20 rep squat sets, but I fear reaching failure and hurting myself because of my bad knee. Might be something to look forward to if I can ever reach the level of intensity you talk about.

 

[DaCypher]

Wow, I reply and theres already 3 replies before mine. I can't type fast enough to keep up with the conversation.

And yes, its difficult to accurately express sarcasm without a tone of voice. Although, smilies do come in handy.

 

[Blood&Iron]

Oh, let me add one thing. Perhaps, it's trivial, but I've been wanting to say something since I noticed it and I just haven't found the right thread. The title of the book is "Thus Spake Zarathustra." Just so you know.

Trivial and wrong. Frankly I get annoyed when people correct me and don't actually know what they're talking about. Nietzsche was German. His books must therefore be translated. The German title is "Also Sprach Zarathustra." Early translators in a misguided attempt to approximate the King James Bible used archaisms not really present in the original text. I am reading the Walter Kaufmann translation which dispenses with these, and is thus titled "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" Just so you know.

Good to know you're busting ass in the gym though. I'm impressed.

 

[gymtime]

That's a bit harsh.
Anyways, I still train pretty intensely. During my last couple leg workouts I've felt pretty nauseous and light headed. Happy? Plus I had to listen to 'Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" while squatting today. I thought I'd puke before I even got the bar off the rack.

Yes, I am happy. I heard the same crap in my gym this morning. I think that's more than enough punishment.

 

[Grizzly]

Trivial and wrong. Frankly I get annoyed when people correct me and don't actually know what they're talking about. Nietzsche was German. His books must therefore be translated. The German title is "Also Sprach Zarathustra." Early translators in a misguided attempt to approximate the King James Bible used archaisms not really present in the original text. I am reading the Walter Kaufmann translation which dispenses with these, and is thus titled "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" Just so you know.

Good to know you're busting ass in the gym though. I'm impressed.

Well, I would definitely disagree with the part about not knowing what I'm talking about. As a Philosophy and English double major, I've done my fair share of reading Nietzsche. While taking my class in...oh, shit what the hell was the title of that course?...in whatever it was called. The book that I had in my hands and that I had to read was entitled "Thus Spake Zarathustra." Perahps, it's simply a different version of the translation.

 

[DaCypher]

Funny how the conversation has completely changed from the original post.

 

[Blood&Iron]

Well, I would definitely disagree with the part about not knowing what I'm talking about. As a Philosophy and English double major, I've done my fair share of reading Nietzsche. While taking my class in...oh, shit what the hell was the title of that course?...in whatever it was called. The book that I had in my hands and that I had to read was entitled "Thus Spake Zarathustra." Perahps, it's simply a different version of the translation.

Okay so I was wrong insofar as you not being acquainted with the subject, but that makes your initial "correction" even more unfathomable to me. I have to add, just to make sure I am suitably argumentative, that I am against studying philosophy formally. I've always agreed with the idea that in listening to a professor lecture on philosophy whatever was high, whatever was brilliant in the original text, is reduced to the level at which the professor himself can comprehend it. But what the fuck do I know, my degree is in computer science and I can't even get my ass hired(There are extenuating circumstances.)

 

[Grizzly]

Okay so I was wrong insofar as you not being acquainted with the subject, but that makes your initial "correction" even more unfathomable to me. I have to add, just to make sure I am suitably argumentative, that I am against studying philosophy formally. I've always agreed with the idea that in listening to a professor lecture on philosophy whatever was high, whatever was brilliant in the original text, is reduced to the level at which the professor himself can comprehend it. But what the fuck do I know, my degree is in computer science and I can't even get my ass hired(There are extenuating circumstances.)

Point taken. My original "correction" was more a matter of preference in title, I guess you would call it. You're definitely being suitably argumentative, which is why I love you. I can see that being a very valid point. I know that my professor for Analytic Philosophy is certainly not very good. She's always saying "I think he's saying this" and myself and the two other people in the class are always having to help her understand the shit. On the other hand, I've had a few brilliant, just absolutely fucking BRILLIANT professors. One was Nietzsche scholar by trade. He spoke German, had lived/studied in Germany, knew everything about his life and thoughts. This guy was a fucking genius! I think it just depends upon who you have as a professor. Plus, either way, you're limited either by your professor's understanding or your own. Lose lose situation.

 

[DaCypher]

Point taken. My original "correction" was more a matter of preference in title, I guess you would call it. You're definitely being suitably argumentative, which is why I love you. I can see that being a very valid point. I know that my professor for Analytic Philosophy is certainly not very good. She's always saying "I think he's saying this" and myself and the two other people in the class are always having to help her understand the shit. On the other hand, I've had a few brilliant, just absolutely fucking BRILLIANT professors. One was Nietzsche scholar by trade. He spoke German, had lived/studied in Germany, knew everything about his life and thoughts. This guy was a fucking genius! I think it just depends upon who you have as a professor. Plus, either way, you're limited either by your professor's understanding or your own. Lose lose situation.

That pretty much sums up the whole educational system (at least from what I've experienced so far in the U.S.). At the university level it comes down to more than just the professor's understanding of the material, but also greatly upon the professor's ability to teach the information. A professor can be a genius and understand every possible aspect/detail of a particular subject, but if he/she can't explain what they know, what good is it? Just my $.02...

 

[Blood&Iron]

That pretty much sums up the whole educational system (at least from what I've experienced so far in the U.S.). At the university level it comes down to more than just the professor's understanding of the material, but also greatly upon the professor's ability to teach the information. A professor can be a genius and understand every possible aspect/detail of a particular subject, but if he/she can't explain what they know, what good is it? Just my $.02...

It also depends, more often than not, in computer courses on the professors ability to pronunciate. I think I had two native english speaker professors or TA's in my whole time at school. I remember sitting in a digital logic design course wondering why the hell the professor was talking about resistors. This isn't an electrical engineering course, I thought. Then he wrote the word on the board: register. Damn, I'm glad I'm done with that crap.

 

[DaCypher]

It also depends, more often than not, in computer courses on the professors ability to pronunciate. I think I had two native english speaker professors or TA's in my whole time at school. I remember sitting in a digital logic design course wondering why the hell the professor was talking about resistors. This isn't an electrical engineering course, I thought. Then he wrote the word on the board: register. Damn, I'm glad I'm done with that crap.

LOL. That's very true.

I took an American History course a few semesters ago that was taught by some guy from England with a very thick British accent. I got a kick out of that on the first day of class...

 

[grishaxxl]

Compliments

Wow - what a thread! Got to admire you guys for the range and the flow. My first post on this board (tho I am on some others for a bit). Appreciate the variety of angles on HIT and alternatives - must admit that I was always rather proud of myself for puking on the way home from a particularly good w/o - prob just bravado!

Odd that Nietzsche keeps popping up - there was a (considerably less sophisticated) thread on him over at the Bolex board just the other day. I'm all for the Walter Kaufmann translations , B&I - they had the authority when I was reading him, fortunately in a very small seminar with a tutor (subset of a larger class). Have my own ambivalence about academic life - loved it, but didn't want to live there.....

This board is vast - like a good library! - I'm finally taking the plunge after 15 yrs of BB - have a cycle planned and critiqued and will post it before I start later this winter.

Hope to run into you all as I have more to offer.

 

[Blood&Iron]

Re: Compliments

Wow - what a thread! Got to admire you guys for the range and the flow. My first post on this board (tho I am on some others for a bit). Appreciate the variety of angles on HIT and alternatives - must admit that I was always rather proud of myself for puking on the way home from a particularly good w/o - prob just bravado!

Odd that Nietzsche keeps popping up - there was a (considerably less sophisticated) thread on him over at the Bolex board just the other day. I'm all for the Walter Kaufmann translations , B&I - they had the authority when I was reading him, fortunately in a very small seminar with a tutor (subset of a larger class). Have my own ambivalence about academic life - loved it, but didn't want to live there.....

This board is vast - like a good library! - I'm finally taking the plunge after 15 yrs of BB - have a cycle planned and critiqued and will post it before I start later this winter.

Hope to run into you all as I have more to offer.

With 15 years of lifting behind you I'm sure you have plenty to offer in the way of personal experience. I have to note I'm always a little sad to see people going the way of anabolics--not that I really have anything against them.

Welcome aboard.

 

[DaCypher]

Re: Re: Compliments

With 15 years of lifting behind you I'm sure you have plenty to offer in the way of personal experience. I have to note I'm always a little sad to see people going the way of anabolics--not that I really have anything against them.

Welcome aboard.

I have to completely agree with you on your feelings about A.S. I hope this doesn't start another debate on steroids though...

 

[grishaxxl]

It won't..

I've given it plenty (i.e., years) of thought, and I appreciate your position.

As for having anything to offer the board - I hope I do, and hope I'll have a lot more in future, but i just got here - need some time to look around and see what's already been addressed - learn something new myself, find out who's who.

Thanks for the welcome, too - very glad to be here!!

 

[DaCypher]

I was inspired by this thread to up my intensity during my workouts. So this morning when I was doing legs I really thought I was going to puke. It was a good thing I didn't because there was no way I was going to make it to the bathroom (I couldn't even stand). Anyways, I just thought I'd share this with you guys. Thanks for the motivation...

 

[Blood&Iron]

I was inspired by this thread to up my intensity during my workouts. So this morning when I was doing legs I really thought I was going to puke. It was a good thing I didn't because there was no way I was going to make it to the bathroom (I couldn't even stand). Anyways, I just thought I'd share this with you guys. Thanks for the motivation...

Way to go! Wonderful feeling, ain't it? Just make sure you eat up and get plenty of rest. It's especially important when you're taking things to the limit like you did today.

BTW, puking on the floor is probably not a good way to endear yourself to the gym staff.

 

[DaCypher]

I had trouble getting my post workout shake down. It was definetly a crazy workout. I didn't really even do anything different, it was all mental. I gotta try to get to sleep early tonight...

Yea, I don't think I would have made any friends at the gym if my stomach couldn't stay stable...