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A reply about a mass program from another board.

Tryn2

New member
dont want to step on any toes but check this out. It was a reply to traing at another board. I have been using it and it seems to be working. But Im also "ON" right now and they may be helping growth anyhow. I usually do like a 4 day routine. With arms or shoulders added as the 4th. I also usually do 3 sets of 6-8 reps for every excersise. Ok let me know bros....I might add the gentleman who wrote this knows his shit and is acredited with national and world level powerlifting records. He critiques many lifters to better their routines....I just wanted a 2nd opinion...
" Here’s a generic routine that is a good starting point. This is a mass building routine. Probably less volume than you are used too but very effective. Three days per week because that’s all most folks can handle if they are training heavy. They key is forced/assisted reps. Painful but very effective if you really want to put on size. This does not include warm ups so that is up to you to make sure you are stretched and plenty warm before performing work sets. A work set is defined as a set that you just barely get all reps or need assistance on one or two reps. If you get all the reps fairly easily then it is a warm up and not a work set. Add abs and cardio on the days off to fit your needs. Limit cardio to 3 times week for 30 – 45 minutes of low impact as intense cardio burns muscle.


Monday:
Squats 2 x 5
Box squats 2 x 4
Leg presses 2 x 5
Calves (your choice of exercise) 2 x 10

Tuesday:
Wide grip flat bench 2 x 6
Decline medium grip bench 2 x 6
Weighted dips 2 x 10
Upright rows 2 x 5

Thursday:
Dead lifts (rotate variations each week) 2 x 5
Bent over rows 2 x 4
Reverse grip narrow grip pull downs 2 x 6
Standing wide grip curls 2 x 6

Every one of these movements is a mass building exercise. These are the essential movements for putting on size. Rest and nutrition are just as important as lifting, neglect any one of the three and you will not grow. Juice or no juice all will grow with this routine or a similar one. Consistency is the key. Adding 5 lbs to the bar every other week equals 130lbs/year. Not bad considering many are moving the same weight year in year out. Strength gains are the key to growth, not other way around.

I hope this helpful to all who read it. I have designed many programs for a variety of athletes with varying needs. If you have special needs such as martial arts, football or gymnastics (to name a few) the program can be altered to accommodate these needs.

these exercises are not etched in stone so if you get better esults with a different back movement for example then sub it in. do not sub for the three core movments, squats, deads and flat bench (unless you have shoulder probs, then an alternative for flat bench will work)

now if you are one of those fortuante few who can sustain high volume and still make gains then we can add a day to the routine. if this is too much volume then a 2 day split works very well. and there are some who do very well on a 2 per week training routine. "
 
I would never grow from that routine. 2 sets for me is not enough especially w/ a 6 rep scheme. Yes, " ON " could lead to growth. I am not " ON " so in my case volume is simply not there.
 
The "ON" has to be helping you grow. I wouldnt stand a chance to grow with this routine, it would be more likely that my numbers would drop.
 
I agree, too low volume for just 1bp/week

Mentzer .... the man is dead, yet his "ideas" continue to sway the public. Don't know if I hate him, or if I hate him even more.
 
I'm getting really annoyed by everyone who keeps saying "I wouldn't grow" blah blah blah...

So you're telling me that if you put 100-300+ lbs strength increases on all of these lifts, that you wouldn't gain size? Bullshit. How do you think muscles grow, anyway?

I agree that with that kind of volume, you could probably utilize a higher frequency, but to say that you "wouldn't grow" is ridiculous.
 
Debaser said:
I'm getting really annoyed by everyone who keeps saying "I wouldn't grow" blah blah blah...

So you're telling me that if you put 100-300+ lbs strength increases on all of these lifts, that you wouldn't gain size? Bullshit. How do you think muscles grow, anyway?

I agree that with that kind of volume, you could probably utilize a higher frequency, but to say that you "wouldn't grow" is ridiculous.


Im sure I wouldnt grow on such a routine. I doubt Id even increase my strength. When I went from 405 to 510 on my deadlifts in 14 months, I still didnt grow. I got some thickness in my waist, but thats about it. Ive definately seen myself get stronger without any measurable growth. If I was on juice, depending on the amount, Im sure I could grow from much less, but Id have to be on alot to grow on that routine. This is only my personal experience.
 
far too many trainees take those 5-6 reps and work really hard on the concentric, but neglect the negative. there is where your damage comes in. take a set of 6 at a 4/2/0 tempo and tell me it isnt tough enough. the reason alot of people think its "not enough" is because they rip through a set too fast. keep in mind these may not include warmup sets etc. also. far too many variables to say "it wont work".

IMO, too many bodybuilders train like endurance athletes as it is. set after set of "burn and pump". the big fibers....dont last that long so hit em hard while they are fresh.
 
Debaser said:
I'm getting really annoyed by everyone who keeps saying "I wouldn't grow" blah blah blah...

So you're telling me that if you put 100-300+ lbs strength increases on all of these lifts, that you wouldn't gain size? Bullshit. How do you think muscles grow, anyway?

I agree that with that kind of volume, you could probably utilize a higher frequency, but to say that you "wouldn't grow" is ridiculous.

:chomp:
 
Bump for more opnions, I just want to remind everyone this guy is a national and world record holder in powerlifting. It seems many people powerlift for size then bodybuild once they have a good base. I just want to see if anyone trains like this ?
 
you have to remember tryn2, these sets are not the typical sets you see guys in the gym doing, they are all out lose your lunch when you are done sets. Warm ups are not included, i have started doing something similare to this. Also this program was just a guideline to be tweaked where you see fit. When i deadlift i might do 5 sets before i start counting, and my first workset might be 500+. Too many guys start in the gym doing 5 day a week splits before they have any base and never get anywhere.
 
Yeah I know I am honestly trying to my best to do this program because i do believe in it. I am just looking for some reinforcment. My big thing is I dont have a partner...
 
1. just because this guy is a world record holder doesnt mean it works for everyone. You have to fine a routine that works for you, BE CREATIVE.
2. Debaser,
You may grow a little from this routine, but i highly doubt very much. I could
definitely see more strength gains than size gains.
I would love to see someone and for the fact train with someone whou could see
"100-300+ lbs strength increases." I would be truly amazed.
3. jcp2,
I agree with not counting your warm up sets and such. I set a weight and dont
count any reps below that weight, i.e. 315 for flat and 225 for incline bench.
4. tryn2,
It is perfectly fine to not have a partner, but you need to find someone in the gym
you can trust for a reliable and good spotter.
 
also cwick this is not the routine he uses, but more of a beginners strenght program. And like i said before it is to be tweaked for personal use.
 
exactly what i thought.
i agree that all programs should be tweaked to fit the individual using it. I said this in my first point above.
 
cwick0 said:
1. just because this guy is a world record holder doesnt mean it works for everyone. You have to fine a routine that works for you, BE CREATIVE.

This routine looks very similar to Hardgainer magazine style training. In other words, training that came about for the typical, natural man. It's worked for thousands of people.

You're making things way too complicated. Add weight to the bar every week. Eat, and GROW. Progressive load is responsible for growth. If I squat 300 lbs now, and in a year am squatting 400 lbs (with diet in check), I will have very apparent hypertrophy in the legs. If you think differently, then you are very confused as to what causes hypertrophy.
 
I agree with Debaser, though he's a bit forward in his beliefs. :p

Still, it makes sense. You increase the stimulus, and providing there is proper rest and nutrition, growth takes place. Simple science to me.
 
Debaser is correct. However should be noted it isnt applied to SINGLES! You can improve 100 pounds in your 1RM deadlift and not be bigger. But you CANT improve 100 pounds in your 10RM deadlift and show no growth!!!!

I like this routine A LOT and cant get stronger if I train with more volume than that.
 
lol. i can see everybody has completely missed the point of my original comments.

ahh...finally, THANK YOU FRANGO for clarifying what i am talking about.

If someone can go from 300 to 400lbs on any lift in a year with the routine in question i would like for them to show me. I would be truly amazed. I just know through my experiences that i wouldn't grow from this routing.
 
Well if it matters I switched from a 4 day /wk to this and I have grown more on it. I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. Now that I am "on" I may want more. But to tell you the truth he says just work harder and add more weight. Ok it seems to work for me. It may be that the volume is low and you are only doing two sets. But they are balls out, most guys on here probably are not balls out until their last two sets anyways. That was my insight on why this works.
 
Cwick, for many people abbreviated routines are the best bet to get stronger. Myself included. But it surely worked for me!

And I agree with the customization. Some bodyparts just might NEED more volume than that to grow - my shoulders for instance. But if you focus on adding a little weight every week OR doing more reps (= higher TUT) with the same weight the outlined routine just might surprise you in a few months!
 
I agree that abbreviated routines can help one's strength, however, this routine is pretty bleak.

I have done sets with 3 reps only in the past, going as high as i could while still completing 3 reps.

You have to be careful about adding a "little weight" each week. Entirely to many people in the gym try to or dont and when they do they like 5 or 10lbs a side which does absolutely nothing for their growth. I see numberous guys in the gym always pissed off because they cant grow. At first i laugh and then, if they ask, i will help them and tell them that going up 5 or 10lbs is pointless!
 
See I always kinda did the norm :

CHEST/TRIS
flat bench 3 x 6-8
inlcine dumbells 2x8
flyes 3x10
Tri pressdowns 3 x8-10
Seated tri overhead extensions 3 x 8-10

BACK/BIS
Deads 3 x 6-8
Pulldowns to front 3 x 8-10
Dumbell rows 3 x8-10
Standing Bar curls 3 x 8-10
Seated alt dumbell curls 2 x10

LEGS
Squats 4 x 6-8
leg press 3 x 8-10

SKIP A DAY

SHOULDERS or (ARMS again same excersises but on like friday)
Military press's 3 x6-8
Side laterals 3 x 8-10
-------------------------
 
Last edited:
two things:
1. does this routine allow you to build your arms?
2. did you grow from this routine, it seems to be lacking the sets/reps?

3. I never mix chest and tris. I know you work your tris when you do chest, but if you hit chest hard enough you shouldnt have enough energy to get a good and thourough tri workout.
 
here is an example of my chest routine (completed yesterday) Note: 5'10.5" at 250lbs
incline bench:
135 x 20reps
185 x 10reps (this is an unusual set, i normally dont do this set)
225 x 10reps
275 x 10reps
315 x 8reps

decline bench:
135 x 15reps
225 x 10reps
315 x 10reps
365 x 10reps
405 x 5 reps
 
two things:
1. does this routine allow you to build your arms?
-If your talking about the 2nd one. I thought so.
2. did you grow from this routine, it seems to be lacking the sets/reps?
Same answer as the first.
3. I never mix chest and tris. I know you work your tris when you do chest, but if you hit chest hard enough you shouldnt have enough energy to get a good and thourough tri workout.
You may be right.


I usually do this say for chest
Flat Bench
45x 20
65x12
65x12
135x10
155x8
185x6
185x5

Incline dumbells
65 x 10
75 x 8
75 x 6

Flyes...machine ? or dumbells 30 x 10-12 for 3 sets....
I know Im weak but Im tryn....Hence the name..thanks bro.
 
cwick0 said:
I agree that abbreviated routines can help one's strength, however, this routine is pretty bleak.

I have done sets with 3 reps only in the past, going as high as i could while still completing 3 reps.

You have to be careful about adding a "little weight" each week. Entirely to many people in the gym try to or dont and when they do they like 5 or 10lbs a side which does absolutely nothing for their growth. I see numberous guys in the gym always pissed off because they cant grow. At first i laugh and then, if they ask, i will help them and tell them that going up 5 or 10lbs is pointless!

Okay now I'm simply starting to question your intelligence. You wondered how someone could put 100 lbs on your squat in a year with this routine, and now you're saying putting on 5 or 10 lbs is POINTLESS?! Quick math for you:

2 lbs a week, times 52 weeks = 104 lbs in a year.

If you can put 5-10 more lbs on every session on a lift, you're either juicing or your form is becoming exponentially worse every time you lift. And you're saying that going up this "little" is pointless? But, at the same time, you wonder how you could add 100 lbs to your squat in a year. You've either got a fucking screw loose, or you need to rewrite what you posted so that it makes sense.
 
Debaser put it in harsh words, but the essence of what he said cant be denied.

And muscle grows while they´re resting, so yes, its a good idea to group chest, shoulders and tris; back and bi´s. In many cases direct work to the arms arent necessary. If you do dips 10x bodyweight, and in one year you can handle bodyweight plus 100lbs x 10, using the same tempo, how stronger/bigger would your tris be? A LOT, without any kickbacks or pushdowns.
 
OK bump for some more thanks bros. I am just filtering through all these answers trying to get the best routine for my self. Does the chest one and the poundages look ok to you all ?
 
Tryn2 said:
Monday:
Squats 2 x 5
Box squats 2 x 4
Leg presses 2 x 5
Calves (your choice of exercise) 2 x 10


I'd either do the squats OR the box squats. I could find a lot of reasons why I would NOT do the leg press...like say maybe a set of SLDL's.

If you have worked hard enough on the squats and box squats...you shouldn't need the leg presses...that is for sure.

I wouldn't like this routine for many reasons for myself...but I don't have the same goals as anyone else here either basically.

B True
 
b fold the truth said:
I'd either do the squats OR the box squats. I could find a lot of reasons why I would NOT do the leg press...like say maybe a set of SLDL's.

If you have worked hard enough on the squats and box squats...you shouldn't need the leg presses...that is for sure.

I wouldn't like this routine for many reasons for myself...but I don't have the same goals as anyone else here either basically.

B True

B-
could you explain what you see wrong with this according to your goals?
 
Debaser said:
Okay now I'm simply starting to question your intelligence. You wondered how someone could put 100 lbs on your squat in a year with this routine, and now you're saying putting on 5 or 10 lbs is POINTLESS?! Quick math for you:

2 lbs a week, times 52 weeks = 104 lbs in a year.

If you can put 5-10 more lbs on every session on a lift, you're either juicing or your form is becoming exponentially worse every time you lift. And you're saying that going up this "little" is pointless? But, at the same time, you wonder how you could add 100 lbs to your squat in a year. You've either got a fucking screw loose, or you need to rewrite what you posted so that it makes sense.

Have you ever talked to guys who always add a 2.5 or 5 or 10 to a side? For the most part i have and they are pissed because they didnt grow. For big muscle groups i dont think that this little of an increase in weight is very noticable. I have no doubt that some guys can get away with this and do alright, but i just dont see very many that can do this. This 2lbs a week thing for 52 weeks is very easy to say, but how many people can actually do this?

Damn i must have a screw loose then. If i had the chance to train with you, you would be quite suprised at my intelligence level, including training, books, and common sense/street smarts.
 
Whoever stick to a workout thats within his recovery capacity WILL get stronger each session, be it 2 more reps or 2 more pouds for the same reps.

Even Poliquin (a "volume" guy") said "if you´re not going to the gym to improve next session, dont even leave your house". That means, there´s no advantage in using the same weights over and over and over.
 
cwick0 said:
Have you ever talked to guys who always add a 2.5 or 5 or 10 to a side? For the most part i have and they are pissed because they didnt grow. For big muscle groups i dont think that this little of an increase in weight is very noticable. I have no doubt that some guys can get away with this and do alright, but i just dont see very many that can do this. This 2lbs a week thing for 52 weeks is very easy to say, but how many people can actually do this?

Damn i must have a screw loose then. If i had the chance to train with you, you would be quite suprised at my intelligence level, including training, books, and common sense/street smarts.

I've added small amounts of weight nearly every session. I've been training for about 2 years and have gone from 165 @ about 14% to currently 210 @ 10%, naturally.

But I guess this stuff doesn't work. You might want to tell that to all of the people having astounding success using DC training, HST training, and anything similar, to stop adding weight to the bar every time they lift.
 
I am not sure how adding small amounts of weight doesn't work, how do you just jump up 30-50lbs on a lift when your body is not accusomed to the weight, or anything close. I would think small incriments of weight would also make stabilaztion much easier and especially keep your form better. But we all have different ways of doing thigns, and most work to some degree or another.
 
example of some guys bench routine:
135 x whatever
145 x whatever
155 x whatever

or
135, 150, 160.

I try to get these guys to start with a light warmup of 95lbs, that way they can go up 20lbs a side.
95 x 10
115 x 10
135 x 10
155 x 10, or as many as they can.
then go to 175.

I truely believe this is why a lot of guys can increase their weights a lot.

I am relatively big, so as i have gotten bigger, i have a bigger increase between my sets. At one time i use to only go 20 increases, now its 40-50 at a time on my big muscle groups. However, like lat pulldowns, i only go in 20lb increments.
 
wnt2bBeast said:
B-
could you explain what you see wrong with this according to your goals?

I look at every routine as a weakness and strengths analysis. If it doesn't build the base of strength as well have a focus on weaknesses, it isn't going to be effective and efficient. It is a business plan.

If you run a Fortune 50 company, you look at what your biggest weaknesses are in the company. You start to plan around those weaknesses and come up with ideas which will either reduce or eliminate them. When you put that into play, you do not want to reduce your strengths in the process. Same with training.

Have a goal, find your weaknesses, realize and capatalize on your strengths.

This program doesn't do much for me as it does not focus on any weakness. I don't see good mornings, clean and jerks, the use of accomodating resistance or other methods for explosiveness, or any great emphasis on the BIG CORE STRENGTH movements (lots of squats, bench, ohp, deads, etc...).

I am an athlete. An athlete should not be concerned with what he looks like...only how he performs on the field. This routine will not cut it.

B True
 
b fold the truth,
what a perfectly spelled out post. I could not have said it better myself. Not to mention i hate all the beach muscle boys in the gym.
 
cwick0 said:
example of some guys bench routine:
135 x whatever
145 x whatever
155 x whatever

or
135, 150, 160.

I try to get these guys to start with a light warmup of 95lbs, that way they can go up 20lbs a side.
95 x 10
115 x 10
135 x 10
155 x 10, or as many as they can.
then go to 175.

I truely believe this is why a lot of guys can increase their weights a lot.

I am relatively big, so as i have gotten bigger, i have a bigger increase between my sets. At one time i use to only go 20 increases, now its 40-50 at a time on my big muscle groups. However, like lat pulldowns, i only go in 20lb increments.

God I wish you'd re-read your posts on this thread and realize how they make utterly NO SENSE AT ALL.

We're not talking about adding 5-10 lbs EACH SET. We're talking about adding small amounts of weight EACH SESSION YOU TRAIN.

And why the hell would you use your example for benching? 135, 155, 175 all for 10 reps? Why would you use weights so close to your max if they're just warmup sets? A MUCH better example, not to mention the example presented by the routine in this thread, would be this:

100 lbs x 5
150 lbs x 3-5
200 lbs x 6
200 lbs x 6
 
debaser,
It's quite obvious we havent been on the same page the whole time we have been arguing.

I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with someone increasing the weight each time they go to the gym. That should be everyones' goal. I always try to increase the weight, but i dont necessary monitor it on a weekly basis, more on a 3-4 week basis to see if i have improved. People can have good and bad weeks, so that is why i watch the trends instead.
 
b fold the truth said:
I look at every routine as a weakness and strengths analysis. If it doesn't build the base of strength as well have a focus on weaknesses, it isn't going to be effective and efficient. It is a business plan.

If you run a Fortune 50 company, you look at what your biggest weaknesses are in the company. You start to plan around those weaknesses and come up with ideas which will either reduce or eliminate them. When you put that into play, you do not want to reduce your strengths in the process. Same with training.

Have a goal, find your weaknesses, realize and capatalize on your strengths.

This program doesn't do much for me as it does not focus on any weakness. I don't see good mornings, clean and jerks, the use of accomodating resistance or other methods for explosiveness, or any great emphasis on the BIG CORE STRENGTH movements (lots of squats, bench, ohp, deads, etc...).

I am an athlete. An athlete should not be concerned with what he looks like...only how he performs on the field. This routine will not cut it.

B True

thanks for your thoughts B i really appreciate it..Whether or not people agree with what u just said i think everyone could learn about the planning that goes into ones training..
 
wnt2bBeast said:
thanks for your thoughts B i really appreciate it..Whether or not people agree with what u just said i think everyone could learn about the planning that goes into ones training..

Never a problem man. I give my opinion and it isn't any better than anyone elses on here. I learn from everyone on here as well as everyone who trains with me no matter what level they are at in their training.

If I fail to plan in my training, I will fail when I step on the field. Same happens in life, to all of us.

B True
 
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