A question for the vets...

[monkeyballs]

Here's one for the AS scholars...

I have blood work done once every three weeks to monitor my training/recovery.

My biggest question is whether or not an informed mind could see proof of doping in any of these blood levels. How would a GH/OX cycle effect the following.

Ferritin
WBC
RBC
Hematocrit% (Looks like no EPO for me)
Hemoglobin g/dl
MCV
MCH
MCHC
RDW
Plateletes
MPV

Thanks in advance fellas.

 

[monkeyballs]

Even if you only know a few...

 

[fhg43]

Here's one for the AS scholars...

I have blood work done once every three weeks to monitor my training/recovery.

My biggest question is whether or not an informed mind could see proof of doping in any of these blood levels. How would a GH/OX cycle effect the following.

Ferritin
WBC
RBC
Hematocrit% (Looks like no EPO for me)
Hemoglobin g/dl
MCV
MCH
MCHC
RDW
Plateletes
MPV

Thanks in advance fellas.

I don't consider myself a scholar but I'll throw out some stuff:

Due to the RBC boosting effects of some AS (and I think Ox exerts a small effect on RBC) I think a small rise in RBC, hematocrit, and hemoglobin would be noticed. I don't think Ox has the same effect on RBC as EQ but I believe it will increase RBC production.Of course hematocrit can be manipulated by increasing water intake-this would increase plasma thus lowering RBC to plasma ratio.

Would WBC increase as part of the body's response to the foreign substances?

Would ferritin drop a little with the increase in RBC production?

Would one see an increase in plateletes?

MCV?
MCH?
MCHC?
RDW?
MPV?

I'm unfamiliar with these values-if I knew what they were I might be able to say.

Overall I don't think from basic blood work a regular doc would notice use of performance enhancing substances. However the medical staff of your 'team' may have experience in this field and a change in a few values may prompt them to raise questions. Sport doctors (especially ones who are knowledgable about nutrition and supplementation-most regular docs aren't) may be curious as to why RBC/hematocrit increased slightly when you are training hard (typically prolonged exercise/training causes RBC to drop slowly-however it returns to normal or increases after a rest period). However you can always say you have changed your diet, are recovering better than ever, and resting a lot.

What do those other abbreviations stand for?

How is training going? Are you getting close to your competetive season? Hope I was a little helpful.

FHG

 

[shokjosh456]

no

no,other wise I would have been found out by my doc a long time ago.In fact,I had to tell him I was juicing just too be safe.So he is always watching my liver values along with my Blood pressure

 

[argent]

I don't think anyone could deduce anything based on your test results alone. They might be suspicious b/c youy gain 30 lbs. in 8 weeks, but not just from test results. I don't have an answer to your other question though.

 

[monkeyballs]

Re: Re: A question for the vets...

Due to the RBC boosting effects of some AS (and I think Ox exerts a small effect on RBC) I think a small rise in RBC, hematocrit, and hemoglobin would be noticed. I don't think Ox has the same effect on RBC as EQ but I believe it will increase RBC production.Of course hematocrit can be manipulated by increasing water intake-this would increase plasma thus lowering RBC to plasma ratio.

Would WBC increase as part of the body's response to the foreign substances?

Would ferritin drop a little with the increase in RBC production?

Would one see an increase in plateletes?

MCV?
MCH?
MCHC?
RDW?
MPV?

I'm unfamiliar with these values-if I knew what they were I might be able to say.

Overall I don't think from basic blood work a regular doc would notice use of performance enhancing substances. However the medical staff of your 'team' may have experience in this field and a change in a few values may prompt them to raise questions. Sport doctors (especially ones who are knowledgable about nutrition and supplementation-most regular docs aren't) may be curious as to why RBC/hematocrit increased slightly when you are training hard (typically prolonged exercise/training causes RBC to drop slowly-however it returns to normal or increases after a rest period). However you can always say you have changed your diet, are recovering better than ever, and resting a lot.

What do those other abbreviations stand for?

How is training going? Are you getting close to your competetive season? Hope I was a little helpful.

FHG

Thanks for your input FHG. Yes, you've been very helpful.

As for the rest of the comments. Thanks...but no need. There was only one qustion, and If you don't know, don't post.
This is not your standard blood test, and it is not read by your standard doctor.

FHG
RBC/hematocrit can always be blamed on hydration provided it isn't so high that you have glue for blood. The modest increase from OX probably won't raise any flags.
Ferratin can be maintained with any iron supplement, and mine is probably too high to begin with.

As for the remainder of the abbreviations....Let me explain since I just ripped through some coffee.

MCH (mean corpuscular hemoglobin); MCHC (mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration); MCV (mean corpuscular volume)
MCV values reflect the size, and MCH and MCHC reflect the hemoglobin concentration of individual cells. Anemias are classified on the basis of cell size (MCV) and amount of Hgb (MCH).

Red Cell Distribution Width (RDW). The RDW is an expression of the size distribution spread of the erythrocyte population. RDW goes up in 95% of cases with iron deficiency or anemia, and I have neither.

(MPV) Mean platelet volume

This one is self explanatory.

Platletes aren't really a concern, as there are so many variables that could effect those numbers that I think it would be impossible for it to be correlated with doping.

If nandi is around...I'm sure he'd have a thing or two to add.

 

[fhg43]

Re: Re: Re: A question for the vets...

Thanks for your input FHG. Yes, you've been very helpful.

As for the rest of the comments. Thanks...but no need. There was only one qustion, and If you don't know, don't post.
This is not your standard blood test, and it is not read by your standard doctor.

FHG
RBC/hematocrit can always be blamed on hydration provided it isn't so high that you have glue for blood. The modest increase from OX probably won't raise any flags.
Ferratin can be maintained with any iron supplement, and mine is probably too high to begin with.

As for the remainder of the abbreviations....Let me explain since I just ripped through some coffee.

MCH (mean corpuscular hemoglobin); MCHC (mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration); MCV (mean corpuscular volume)
MCV values reflect the size, and MCH and MCHC reflect the hemoglobin concentration of individual cells. Anemias are classified on the basis of cell size (MCV) and amount of Hgb (MCH).

Red Cell Distribution Width (RDW). The RDW is an expression of the size distribution spread of the erythrocyte population. RDW goes up in 95% of cases with iron deficiency or anemia, and I have neither.

(MPV) Mean platelet volume

This one is self explanatory.

Platletes aren't really a concern, as there are so many variables that could effect those numbers that I think it would be impossible for it to be correlated with doping.

If nandi is around...I'm sure he'd have a thing or two to add.

MB-
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Considering the other factors, I don't believe there is anything that would give away Ox/hGH usage. Most of those factors could give signs of EPO usage w/o giving a positive test result for EPO, but not any AAS. I don't think Ox/hGH exert enough of an effect on blood to give away any AAS usage.

I recently got a book with some great info on the EPO tst and various factors that give away EPO use w/o a positive test result. If you are interested I can turn the info into text or PDF and email it to you.

But I think your usage should be okay and undiscovered. Definitely email nandi, Andy13, and/or Zyglamail and they could give you some more concrete answers.

FHG

 

[nandi12]

I didn't see your post until now MB. A guy who was juicing emailed me his bloodwork a few months back and asked me what I thought, as if I were an MD. Oh well... I was struck right away by his elevated RDW. As you mentioned, this is a measure of the dispersion is blood cell size. The bigger the RDW the greater the range in size. It is elevated in anemias because the low oxygen delivery causes the kidneys to incease EPO production, which increases RBC production, which means there are lots of immature red blood cells as well as mature ones, leading to a big range in cell sizes.

The problem was this guy's other blood parameters were normal, contrary to what you would expect in anemia. I believe the anabolic steroids were simply stimulating erythropoiesis, as anabolic steroids do.

His RBC count was toward the high end of normal, but still normal.

It's kind of easy to put together a scenario of what is happening that might explain the results if you already know a person is on steroids. I don't know if a busy doctor would notice anything. The RDW might raise an eyebrow or suggest Epogen to a sports doc and prompt further blood tests.

 

[fhg43]

I didn't see your post until now MB. A guy who was juicing emailed me his bloodwork a few months back and asked me what I thought, as if I were an MD. Oh well... I was struck right away by his elevated RDW. As you mentioned, this is a measure of the dispersion is blood cell size. The bigger the RDW the greater the range in size. It is elevated in anemias because the low oxygen delivery causes the kidneys to incease EPO production, which increases RBC production, which means there are lots of immature red blood cells as well as mature ones, leading to a big range in cell sizes.

The problem was this guy's other blood parameters were normal, contrary to what you would expect in anemia. I believe the anabolic steroids were simply stimulating erythropoiesis, as anabolic steroids do.

His RBC count was toward the high end of normal, but still normal.

It's kind of easy to put together a scenario of what is happening that might explain the results if you already know a person is on steroids. I don't know if a busy doctor would notice anything. The RDW might raise an eyebrow or suggest Epogen to a sports doc and prompt further blood tests.

RDW was a count that was indicated EPO usage. The greater number of immature RBCs the more likely one has artifically boosted hematocrit. However I didn't think that AAS would increase erythropoiesis that much.

MB whats your normal hematocrit?

There are many ways to manipulate hematocrit like you said but none would explain away lots of new RBCs. You could always give the standard answer "really dialled in the diet and getting lots of rest...feel like my form is bet its ever been...Never been this focused on my recovery...etc" I also think that Ox has less of an impact on erythropoiesis than say EQ or test. Nandi any thoughts on different AAS and their effects on erythropoiesis like which ones have a significant effect and which don't.

FHG

 

[nandi12]

RDW was a count that was indicated EPO usage. The greater number of immature RBCs the more likely one has artifically boosted hematocrit. However I didn't think that AAS would increase erythropoiesis that much

I asked this member if was using EPO at the time because that was my first thought as well. He said no. I forget exactly what his cycle consisted of and I can't find the email now. I should never throw anything out; this kind of shit always happens when you do.

Before the advent of Epogen anabolic steroids were the standard treatment for anemia; they definitely increase erythropoiesis. Virtually every anabolic steroid has been tried in anemia, but to my knowledge Anadrol is the only one with FDA approval for treating anemia. Despite what you read in the bodybuilding literature, all androgens, oral or injectable stimulate erythropoiesis. Nandrolone has a good track record in treating the anemia associated with end stage renal failure. Studies have shown that the combination of deca and EPO is superior to EPO alone in these patients.

What I have not figured out is why my "patient's" RDW was elevated ouside the normal range but hematocrit was just high normal. A hematologist would know; maybe this is always the case when AAS are used to stimulate erythropoiesis. I don't know.

 

[fhg43]

I asked this member if was using EPO at the time because that was my first thought as well. He said no. I forget exactly what his cycle consisted of and I can't find the email now. I should never throw anything out; this kind of shit always happens when you do.

Before the advent of Epogen anabolic steroids were the standard treatment for anemia; they definitely increase erythropoiesis. Virtually every anabolic steroid has been tried in anemia, but to my knowledge Anadrol is the only one with FDA approval for treating anemia. Despite what you read in the bodybuilding literature, all androgens, oral or injectable stimulate erythropoiesis. Nandrolone has a good track record in treating the anemia associated with end stage renal failure. Studies have shown that the combination of deca and EPO is superior to EPO alone in these patients.

I knew most did. Very interesting. I know EQ is very good for erythropoiesis. One guy got popped for using it and it was a rumor around the cycling community that he had been using "Horse EPO"-I found that funny.

What I have not figured out is why my "patient's" RDW was elevated ouside the normal range but hematocrit was just high normal. A hematologist would know; maybe this is always the case when AAS are used to stimulate erythropoiesis. I don't know.

EPO will ellicit a 3-5% increase at a dosage of 150-280iu (I think those are the doses I saw) a week. This is pretty noticeable and eyebrow raising both in the field (during competition "what is that guy using !!!") and in the lab i.e. doc noticing hematocrit is very high. EPO will definitely boost hematocrit over 45 in highly trained athletes. Here are some rough numbers from memory:

Normal readings:
Average person in good health hemotcrit: 35-40
Average person/good health/recreational athlete: 40+
Elite athlete: 45-49
Elite athlete training at altitude: 47-52

Abnormal readings-
Elite athlete on EPO: 45-60 (depends on many variables)
Elite athlete overtrained, injured, or stressed: <40
Elite athlete: +/-3% change in hcrit in short timespan

These readings are rough but maybe helpful. Most doctors get concerned about significant changes or high/low readings in relation to patients history. Like my hcrit dropped big time after a bad crash (a large bruise was sucking my blood to heal) and it took a long time to return to normal.

If your bloodwork has been monitored regularly a doc may notice trends and spot significant changes MB. So you have to concern yourself with:

1. How much does my doc know about AAS (or doping ingeneral) and its physiological effects?

2. Is doc smart enough to put 2 and 2 together "hmmm MB has been kicking ass according to the coach and his RBW is up but crit is normal, hmmmm?"

3. Do they even care-if you win a medal and pass all their tests they probably won't. A female cyclist got popped in 2000 for test. She served her suspension and then came back and won a medal for the US at Worlds. Then in Jan she was popped for norboletheone (what the hell is that stuff?). She was probably doped for Worlds but she passed the controls. And obviously the federation had no quwalms about having an athlete on the team who had a bad record.

FHG

 

[fhg43]

Bump for MB and a generally interesting post

and

So everyone can see I have an avatar now

Yeah-kill those evil Belgians

FHG
Windmill Spinnin-Wood Shoe Wearin' MoFo

 

[monkeyballs]

If your bloodwork has been monitored regularly a doc may notice trends and spot significant changes MB. So you have to concern yourself with:

1. How much does my doc know about AAS (or doping ingeneral) and its physiological effects?

2. Is doc smart enough to put 2 and 2 together "hmmm MB has been kicking ass according to the coach and his RBW is up but crit is normal, hmmmm?"

3. Do they even care-if you win a medal and pass all their tests they probably won't.

Fuck yeah...I turn my back for a few days and I come back to an orgy of info. Thanks guys...

Okay, so I'll just give you the breakdown of my recent bloodwork, but first, let me answer FHG's questions. My bloodwork is monitored every three weeks. The results are kept on a graph in comparison with other teammates.

1. As much as anybody...he's in the know for sure
2. My guess would be a resounding yes
3. I guess I'll have to find out.

Here is the breakdown of my recent bloodwork. I live at about 6,500ft, so the values are elevated slightly due to altitude. I'm also recovering from an injury, so none are that impressive at the moment.

Ferritin- 112
WBC- 6.5
RBC- 4.82 (should go up once I get my training load back to norm)
Hemoglobin-14.6
Hematocrit-45.7
MCV-91.7
MCH-30.4
MCHC-34.3
RDW-13.6
The rest is just a profile of my immune system.

So if all androgens stimulate erytropoiesis, then since Ox is such a mild androgen, it's effect on my hematocrit% should be fairly insignificant. What about the GH? My guess is that it shouldn't do much to the blood profile at all...but just to be sure I wanted to run it by you guys.

Thanks again fellas.

 

[fhg43]

Fuck yeah...I turn my back for a few days and I come back to an orgy of info. Thanks guys...

Okay, so I'll just give you the breakdown of my recent bloodwork, but first, let me answer FHG's questions. My bloodwork is monitored every three weeks. The results are kept on a graph in comparison with other teammates.

1. As much as anybody...he's in the know for sure
2. My guess would be a resounding yes
3. I guess I'll have to find out.

Here is the breakdown of my recent bloodwork. I live at about 6,500ft, so the values are elevated slightly due to altitude. I'm also recovering from an injury, so none are that impressive at the moment.

Ferritin- 112
WBC- 6.5
RBC- 4.82 (should go up once I get my training load back to norm)
Hemoglobin-14.6
Hematocrit-45.7
MCV-91.7
MCH-30.4
MCHC-34.3
RDW-13.6
The rest is just a profile of my immune system.

So if all androgens stimulate erytropoiesis, then since Ox is such a mild androgen, it's effect on my hematocrit% should be fairly insignificant. What about the GH? My guess is that it shouldn't do much to the blood profile at all...but just to be sure I wanted to run it by you guys.

Thanks again fellas.

I doubt HGH will affect the blood profile significantly-I have never heard that as an effect of hGH.

I really think your blood profile will be fine. If you were going to do EQ then they may notice a difference.

FHG