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5x5 VS MAX-OT vs HST?
- Thread starter gunit
- Start date
Also, should I be doing westside? I'm a noobie lifter and am just at week 2 of the 5x5 madcow2 program.. I havent gained that much noticeable mass yet, but I'm wondering if I should just stick with this program? Also, i'm looking for some strength gains, so when should I do westside?
I'm 6'0" 176 pounds
I'm 6'0" 176 pounds
I think being a beginner the 5x5 is inappropriate especially the periodized version and to a large degree the novice/intermediate single factor version. In reality, you need to practice and learn the lifs. A lot of times that's a 3 day per week program where you do the same exercises every day until you get enough skill and a base to really push yourself. At that time a single factor program (a la the novice/int program) would be appropriate. A few years of similar work will get you to the point where a periodized program is going to offer you something more - until you are upper-intermediate, it's pointless and you might actually wind up with worse results.
The main Westside program also assumes a pretty solid base in the core lifts. You just aren't going to get as much out of speed and max effort work as someone with a few years of experience. Tim Harold Jr. gave someone the same advice not too long ago. You need a base first to really reap Westside rewards. http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=954. Maybe look into the Westside for Skinny Bastards program after you get a bit more experience - I don't know anything about it but I'd assume it's geared to someone in the first year or two of training.
HST might be a viable option in the short term although even here, I think you need more work on the basics to even make the idea of a 15 or 5 rep max valid.
Your best bet IMO is still a 3x per week program squatting, pulling, benching, rowing, chinning, and overhead. Just get it all down first and get your base to the point where you can make use of the better programs.
As for as Max-OT...I certainly wouldn't put anyone on it but a lot of novices have been happy and it gives them a plan and progression to follow. Could be worse.
In reality a lot of the stuff being used here and in my thread isn't for beginners. I really don't have a great total beginner program in there and most of the stuff is geared toward intermediate or advanced. This assumes a good base, knowledge of the lifts, decent capcity for workload, etc... and it takes a few years building that. Even the novice program really isn't for beginners but for someone with a decent base and time training the main lifts.
All that said, 2 weeks isn't much to see results. You should read my post on Diet and the nature of caloric excess here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4866519&postcount=465. This is where most aspiring muscle builders blow up.
Honestly your best course of action is to buy Rippetoe's Starting Strength, and follow his program. This is probably one of the best guys at adding mass to novices. Lots of guys have put on 30lbs their first 3 months. In 4-6 months it's pretty routine for him to get 30-40lbs. His book is here: www.startingstrength.com. An idea of his squat progression through what would basically be the first periodized cycle is presented by Glenn here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235. Rippetoe's interview is available now here http://www.readthecore.com/200507/trenches.htm. He touches a bit on novice training but it's mainly bio. Next month he and Glenn are supposed to cover programing for novice, intermed, and advanced lifters.
Hope that helps. To be honest, the periodized program has gotten popular enough to find it's way to a lot of places where it's getting used by people it's not meant for. This is going to hurt them rather than help. As you can see, even the people that swear by this style workout and use it with outrageous success accross a broad range of athletes do not use it for beginners or novices (granted what they do use is another variation) and to be honest at a minimum it's a year of hardcore training (i.e. not BBer style) before they'd even begin to implement the basic periodized template.
The main Westside program also assumes a pretty solid base in the core lifts. You just aren't going to get as much out of speed and max effort work as someone with a few years of experience. Tim Harold Jr. gave someone the same advice not too long ago. You need a base first to really reap Westside rewards. http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=954. Maybe look into the Westside for Skinny Bastards program after you get a bit more experience - I don't know anything about it but I'd assume it's geared to someone in the first year or two of training.
HST might be a viable option in the short term although even here, I think you need more work on the basics to even make the idea of a 15 or 5 rep max valid.
Your best bet IMO is still a 3x per week program squatting, pulling, benching, rowing, chinning, and overhead. Just get it all down first and get your base to the point where you can make use of the better programs.
As for as Max-OT...I certainly wouldn't put anyone on it but a lot of novices have been happy and it gives them a plan and progression to follow. Could be worse.
In reality a lot of the stuff being used here and in my thread isn't for beginners. I really don't have a great total beginner program in there and most of the stuff is geared toward intermediate or advanced. This assumes a good base, knowledge of the lifts, decent capcity for workload, etc... and it takes a few years building that. Even the novice program really isn't for beginners but for someone with a decent base and time training the main lifts.
All that said, 2 weeks isn't much to see results. You should read my post on Diet and the nature of caloric excess here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4866519&postcount=465. This is where most aspiring muscle builders blow up.
Honestly your best course of action is to buy Rippetoe's Starting Strength, and follow his program. This is probably one of the best guys at adding mass to novices. Lots of guys have put on 30lbs their first 3 months. In 4-6 months it's pretty routine for him to get 30-40lbs. His book is here: www.startingstrength.com. An idea of his squat progression through what would basically be the first periodized cycle is presented by Glenn here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235. Rippetoe's interview is available now here http://www.readthecore.com/200507/trenches.htm. He touches a bit on novice training but it's mainly bio. Next month he and Glenn are supposed to cover programing for novice, intermed, and advanced lifters.
Hope that helps. To be honest, the periodized program has gotten popular enough to find it's way to a lot of places where it's getting used by people it's not meant for. This is going to hurt them rather than help. As you can see, even the people that swear by this style workout and use it with outrageous success accross a broad range of athletes do not use it for beginners or novices (granted what they do use is another variation) and to be honest at a minimum it's a year of hardcore training (i.e. not BBer style) before they'd even begin to implement the basic periodized template.
I have been training on and off for the past 3 years. I think I'm ready to start single factor 5x5, and I have, and I feel pretty good doing it.
I think i'm going to go against u in the whole basic working thing and just continue on with the single factor 5x5 for about 3 more months.
I think i'm going to go against u in the whole basic working thing and just continue on with the single factor 5x5 for about 3 more months.
blut wump
New member
Is it just modesty that allows you to dismiss three years of training to class yourself as a 'noobie'? I couldn't blame you if it is. I've been lifting for over twenty years but the more off than on nature of it leaves me often thinking of myself as a newbie lifter.
In your position, I'd recommend gazing longingly at the Westside program but I wouldn't attempt it until you've had at least two more years of lifting where you never miss more than a couple of consecutive weeks. You just don't have the base of muscle-mass and the proficiency on the lifts to attack the program in any worthwhile fashion.
Keep your workouts simple. Make the most of the compound movements and lots of food to gain a good foundation of muscle. Maybe even set yourself some decent targets after reading around like being able to bench 250 and/or full-squat 300 before you start to think of yourself as having made it past the beginner stage.
Good luck with it.
In your position, I'd recommend gazing longingly at the Westside program but I wouldn't attempt it until you've had at least two more years of lifting where you never miss more than a couple of consecutive weeks. You just don't have the base of muscle-mass and the proficiency on the lifts to attack the program in any worthwhile fashion.
Keep your workouts simple. Make the most of the compound movements and lots of food to gain a good foundation of muscle. Maybe even set yourself some decent targets after reading around like being able to bench 250 and/or full-squat 300 before you start to think of yourself as having made it past the beginner stage.
Good luck with it.
gunit said:
When you say 'noobie lifter' that generally means total beginner, so much of my post is irrelevant and not applicable to you since I'd assume with 3 years you have a decent grasp of the lifts even if your training has been inconsistent. Maybe try to be a bit more detailed on experience simply because in a BBing forum when someone calls themselves a newbie that generally means they've never seen the inside of a gym before. Basically, every 15 year-old with 6 months and 4 issues of Flex under their belt feels they are advanced so give as much detail as you can.
The single factor program is fine. Do it until it stops working. Back off for a few weeks with lower volume and light weights and then do the program again starting lower and push on it. You can change it up some or whatever but eventually you'll be better off on a periodized program (get whatever you can out of training linearly though, it's a blessing not a curse).
