5x5 questions/worries

[Micker]

Just started a 5x5 routine. A few questions about it.

First of all, how much time should I take between sets?? There is a big difference in what I can do with 1 min. rest or 4 mins. rest between sets.

Second, I don't see any direct tricep/bicep/delt exercises. I know that they will get indirectly worked, but I am worried about losing arm size/strength. I see that some days allow for a random exercise to be put in, should I throw in some curls or don't bother??

For the first day I did Bench, Squats and Rows. Should I throw in another exercise for mondays??

I have just read so many versions of this program, I am undecided on what to do. Hoping some people can give insight on what worked for them and how it effected them strength/size wise. Thanks!!

 

[blut wump]

Which 5x5 routine?

 

[dgatehouse]

I had one of the same questions. I'm doing Needsize's 5x5 and I was wondering what the rest periods were. What shoud be the difference between the 5 rep sets and the 8-10 rep sets? I'm currently only doing 1 minute rest intervals because that is what I'm used to.

 

[Tagio]

dgatehouse, forgive me if i'm wrong, but I recall the rest periods on needsize's version being longer (2-5 minutes?) for the 5 rep sets, to allow higher weights to be used. the idea was to make those sets more akin to what someone training for strength would do, to complement and enhance the effectiveness of the 'bodybuilding' type 8-10 rep sets. It has been a while since I read his explanations of the program though so I'm not 100% certain.

 

[Tagio]

micker, you should pick a version and stick to it just for the sake of consistency in your training. I can't speak for madcow or bill starr or needsize, but I think letting yourself rest until you feel like hitting the next set is a completely acceptable approach. it lets you go heavier overall and develop your strength rather than your anaerobic endurance. But restricting rest periods to save workout time or because you enjoy that type of workout would probably work very well too, as long as rest times are kept consistent and loading and deloading are done as described.

 

[needsize]

micker, you should pick a version and stick to it just for the sake of consistency in your training. I can't speak for madcow or bill starr or needsize, but I think letting yourself rest until you feel like hitting the next set is a completely acceptable approach. it lets you go heavier overall and develop your strength rather than your anaerobic endurance. But restricting rest periods to save workout time or because you enjoy that type of workout would probably work very well too, as long as rest times are kept consistent and loading and deloading are done as described.

I agree to an extent, but it makes sense to keep rest periods in the same ballpark, that way when your strength is going up you know its not because you rested twice as much

 

[anotherbutters]

needsize, if that's you in your avatar, you need to change your name! looking fantastic.

 

[Micker]

I guess I am doing madcows version. Didn't really see too much different between them, gotta look again. I was gonna do.

Mon......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat.......5x5................................... ..............................3x3
Bench.......1x5................................... ..............................1x3
Row.........1x5................................... ...............................1x3

Wed......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat.......5x5 with 15-20% less than Monday.................drop this lift
Deadlift.....5x5.................................. ...............................3x3
Military......5x5................................. ................................3x3
Pullups.......5x5................................. ...............................3x3

Fri.........Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity
Squat........1x5.................................. ..............................1x3
Bench........5x5.................................. .............................3x3
Row...........5x5................................. ..............................3x3

I am VERY open to any suggestions or reccomendations that people who have done the different 5x5 progams might have. Should I add a 4th exercise to Mon and Fri workouts?? I was thinking about throwing in some curls on Fri.. My main goal is strength, but more size would be welcome also .

 

[blut wump]

The simple answer to your question is to take as much rest time as you need but don't be lazy.

During the first couple of weeks you might find yourself flying through the workout. By the time you are hitting week3 and new PRs you'll almost certainly be slowing down.

For myself I try to be starting a fresh set maybe every 90 seconds or so during the first couple of weeks which might have stretched out to around three minutes by week4. A lot depends on your conditioning. Make sure that you are rested enough to do the set but don't sit around for the sake of it.

Regarding assistance work for arms, madcow's recommendations have been to throw in some triceps work after the day1 workout and biceps after the day3 workout if you feel the need. Keep the volume low: maybe 2-3 sets of around 8 reps. I used to do some triceps but did bother with the biceps.

During the first couple of weeks you'll doubtless find that you have plenty of energy and that the workload is too little. If you've chosen your week3 targets correctly, you should find little energy spare once you're into the last two weeks of loading.

If you have more questions about the routine, it'd be best to post them up in the main madcow 5x5 thread.

 

[needsize]

needsize, if that's you in your avatar, you need to change your name! looking fantastic.

thanks, that's me

 

[dgatehouse]

dgatehouse, forgive me if i'm wrong, but I recall the rest periods on needsize's version being longer (2-5 minutes?) for the 5 rep sets, to allow higher weights to be used. the idea was to make those sets more akin to what someone training for strength would do, to complement and enhance the effectiveness of the 'bodybuilding' type 8-10 rep sets. It has been a while since I read his explanations of the program though so I'm not 100% certain.

2-5 minutes? Wow, I don't think I've ever rested that long in my entire life. I think I'll just work my way up there. Maybe 3 minutes rest max. I just started so the light weight I'm doing is really easy so I can't see myself now waiting that long. Plus, I'm not used to waiting more than a minute.

 

[Micker]

Kinda want to be sure I do the right/enough exercises. I was planning....

I am doing the following:

Mon.
Bench 1x5
Squat 5x5
Bent over Rows 5x5
Weighted situps

Wed.
Squats 5x5
Deadlifts 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Pullups

Fri.
Bench 5x5
Squat 1x5
Bent over Rows 5x5

Should I add any other exercises?? I was thinking about some curls or tri sets on Fri.. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Guinness5.0]

A little arm work is fine- 2-3 sets for 6-10 reps at the end. Just don't go nuts with it (you won't need to).

 

[blut wump]

Kinda want to be sure I do the right/enough exercises. I was planning....

I am doing the following:

Mon.
Bench 1x5
Squat 5x5
Bent over Rows 5x5
Weighted situps

Wed.
Squats 5x5
Deadlifts 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Pullups

Fri.
Bench 5x5
Squat 1x5
Bent over Rows 5x5

Should I add any other exercises?? I was thinking about some curls or tri sets on Fri.. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Just work as hard as you can in weeks 3 and 4. If week3 feels at all easy then you're not using enough weight. Week4 should be harder than week3.

 

[Micker]

Trying to figure out my weights for each exercise now. First two days I think I went too light, but just getting a feel for it. Squats are gonna kick my ass. I was doing a lot of mountain biking, so I haven't done squats in a long time. I feel like I have been F'ed in the A.

I am still a little confused with what my goals should be. I think I normally do a set of 5 with 215 for bench, before I started this routine. So the first day I did 185x5x5(was supposed to pyramid up but messed up). It was real easy. Now my next bench I am going to do 195 5x5. The next time after that I have to do a 1x5 pyramid. Should I shoot to hit 215 for my last set, a weight I know I can do 5 good reps with, or should I shoot a bit lower seeing how it will only be the second week?? Do I want to match my PR for 5 the second week and break it in the third?? Or should I match it in the 3rd and break it in the 4th week??

Sorry for all the questions, looks like such a simple program, but lots of little questions pop up. I think if someone could do a mock 5x5 madcow program with listed exercises/weights/goal weights and good accessory exercises for which day, myself and many others would be VERY happy!! Thanks for the advice so far. It's amazing how much you think you know, and then realize how much you really don't know.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Should I shoot to hit 215 for my last set, a weight I know I can do 5 good reps with, or should I shoot a bit lower seeing how it will only be the second week?? Do I want to match my PR for 5 the second week and break it in the third?? Or should I match it in the 3rd and break it in the 4th week??

I couldn't tell from they way you worded it - is 215 your 5RM? If so you should aim for this your 3rd week and best it on the 4th. In the volume phase you definitely want to get all your reps in and shouldn't come close to failure in the Wks 1/2.

If you're feeling beefy you can push it in Week 3/4 and adjust up if you think you can get all the reps. But if you miss you need to go back down and get the volume in. That's my understanding.

I think I got a little stronger in the loading phase since I was (am) new to this type of training so I went past some of my 5RM's in Week 3, and bested them in Wk 4, I think for deads and rows.

 

[Micker]

Thanks jim. Yeah, my 5RM was 215. I will adjust my weight to do 215x5 on the third week. Another question, say I go to do 215 on the third week and I can get a 6th rep on the last set, should I do it or just adjust my weight for the next workout??

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well for me personally if it was moderately hard I'd just stay there and stop at 5, even if I might be able to squeeze out one more rep. But that's just me, I was pretty gassed by week 3 and especially 4 so extra reps never really entered my mind

If it's laughingly easy and you just breezed through it then you may have way underestimated your weights and need an extra week to scale up.

Anyway, a lot of first run through is getting to know your body, work capacity and how you respond to this type of training. A few mistakes here and there aren't show stoppers. 2nd run through is better in terms of planning. To quote MC2 (God love 'im):

This workout is more than good enough to still provide a lot of gains even if you botch it a bit - it won't be optimal but it would be a shitty workout if you had to peg it 100% just to get a fair amount of results.

 

[blut wump]

Pretty much waht Jim said. However, if you smoke your top set in week3 or week4 then I'd say add weight and do a sixth set, mentally discarding one of your earlier sets as having been pure warmup. If you are smoking a 5x5 exercise in weeks 3 or 4 then try to notice it early enough to add weight. If you follow the guidelines by aiming for your maxes in week3 this shouldn't happen too badly but often people get stronger during the volume phase and have to adjust.

The dual-factor approach is all about overloading, primarily in those last two volume weeks. Some people do require more time to become loaded than the norm and for those unfortunates an extra week of loading might be needed. It's not something to worry about on your first run, though.

If no-one has yet linked you to this, it's worth a read:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

 

[Micker]

Awesome Blut, that article really helped explain the theory behind this training!! I'm sure after my first run through I will be able to fine tune my weigths/exercises much better.

 

[blut wump]

In case you didn't notice: the program presented in the article is the madcow 5x5.