5x5 progression/missing weights.. question??

[get456]

Not really intending on keeping a journal but I do have a question

I am doing the intermediate 5x5 from madcow's website right now and I have noticed one very striking issue....

I made my starting weights with real numbers that were very close to my actual 1RM and 5RM weights... I routinely do 5RM lifts so it wasnt a huge issue to figure that.... However right now I am on wed of week 3 and I am having issues with the bench weights... THe squats have been cake so far, deadlifts, work but doable, rows awesome as well...

but the bench... i barely... BARELY got my weight on monday for 5 and the last rep i didnt touch my chest... so i dropped my starting weight (5RM) by 5 lbs... so I will be doing the same weight next week as this week.

Same tonight on incline... i BARELY got my 5 reps...

is that how it is supposed to be? I havent missed a lift yet, but im concerned for next week.

If I need a touch spot does that count as a missed lift or can i move on? as opposed to missing a full rep.

My lifts are not ridiculous and liek I said I based my starting numbers on weights i normally work with...

any tips?

right now im 188lbs and I take in about 3000-3200 cals on lifting days, 2000-2200 on off days (saturday is a cheat day, prob do 3000-3500 cals on sat but not as clean)

 

[future]

Most people OVERestimate their weights. You are going too heavy.

An alternative as well is to do your heavy set first then decrease the weight through the sets but still get your 5 reps.

 

[get456]

that was kind of my question though... I know what my previous 5RM were... straight up, proper form 5RM, weights i have done more than one time... its not like i was doing 225x10 and then was like... well ill just figure 275 is my 5RM

does that make sense? Or do you think I still would have over estimated for some reason?

i will say one thing I have changed is my grip on the bench... i was gripping the bar with my ring finger ON the rings... now I am gripping with my index finger on the rings... would that change my ability to lift that much? by 5 or even 10 lbs??

 

[future]

Changing the grip will cause an adjustment for sure.

The problem with doing less reps in training is the success factor at times becomes a coin toss. Like doing a 1 rep max. You have a 50/50 shot of getting out of that set with zero or one rep. So the lower the scheme the greater the chance of having a less than successful set.

That being said,

I made my starting weights with real numbers that were very close to my actual 1RM and 5RM weight

this tells me you started too heavy.

 

[get456]

Changing the grip will cause an adjustment for sure.

The problem with doing less reps in training is the success factor at times becomes a coin toss. Like doing a 1 rep max. You have a 50/50 shot of getting out of that set with zero or one rep. So the lower the scheme the greater the chance of having a less than successful set.

That being said, this tells me you started too heavy.

When I said I made my starting weights with my current 5rm... what i meant was, that my current 5RM would be hit in week 4...

did you think I meant that i started week one at my maxes? I hope im not being too dense and I do appreciate the help...

Regardless of my perceived "correctness" to start with... I am dropping my bench and inc bench weight 5 lbs... so Im giving myself 1 extra week to build up.

I still am trying to understand why im getting buried though

 

[enigma4dub]

There are a couple things to consider grip change, fatigue, or incorrect weight selection or maybe all 3. If the other excercises are going up well and its early in the program its a safe bet you overshot your max on your pushes. Remember Its REAL MAXES, in other words whatever you are currently conditioned to do. Its not a best case scenario.

 

[blut wump]

Most gym goers and most people new to the 5x5 have put in a lot more effort on their bench than any other lift. Accordingly, there's less room for easy improvement on the bench and it's a harder lift to make progress on. With the squat and deadlift, there's typically a lot more untapped potential and so progress can be quite remarkable compared with expectations.

That said, it doesn't help your situation. How are you ramping to the top sets? Do you start reasonably low and have big jumps in weight to your top set or do you start fairly close to your top set and make small jumps? Post up your weights for the last Fri/Mon. Post percentages if you don't like to post the actual weights. Dropping back by 5lbs isn't a bad idea but isn't going to help if you'll just have the same problem next week.

Don't forget that if you're unaccustomed to this type of workout then you'll find that benching after reasonably hard squatting will detract from your bench. Your 5RM under these conditions will be lower than a 5RM when reasonably fresh. Also if you're cutting then increasing a lift will be a lot harder than when bulking. In fact just staying the same can be as hard as making PRs while you're cutting. Cycling your food intake such that it's lower while you're growing might be accounting for this to some extent.

Yes, getting a touch from your spotter is a fail. Anything that isn't 100% yours is a fail since you didn't make the lift.

 

[get456]

Previous lifting program was the usual BB split. I have done inc db's for years (actually posted recently that my chest was just not growing from doing the db's) I was doing 6+reps with 120lb db's ... moved about 5 weeks ago to doing flat bench. The reason i mention that is that im not the typical bench a bajillion sets and do some curls kind of guy... i take my diet/lifting rather serious and I want to make real improvements.. thats why im here to learn and read, so i can "program" a routine better that has some real theory behind it... In fact per Madcow's suggestion I justbought Ripptoe/Kilgore's book "Practical Programming for Strength"

Calculated 5RM:
Squat-270
Bench-255
Row-204
Dead-343
Incline-217

All based on completed lifts at those weights (except Row, ive never went under 8 reps on the row before, but I got 200lbs for 5 monday, cake)


*actually let me edit this... the weights on the left are from teh spreadsheet, the weights on the right are ACTUAL lifts completed (microloading)

Friday:
Squat-
129*5 135*5
161*5 161.25*5
193*5 195*5
225*5 225*5
263*3 263.75*3
193*8 195*8

Bench
121*5 135*5
152*5 155*5
182*5 185*5
212*5 215*5
248*3 248.75*3- Got my 3 but hard work
182*8 185*8

(not including Row since not an issue)
(assistance was weighted dips +90*8, +100*8, +100*7, curls 100*8, 110*8,105*10, 3 sets of extensions with rope)

Monday-
Squat-
132*5 135*5
165*5 165*5
198*5 198.75*5
231*5 231.25*5
264*5 265*5

Bench-(actually done last, after rows since some clowns were using the bench for reps with 100lbs)
124*5 125*5
155*5 155*5
186*5 186.25*5
218*5 218.75*5
250*5 250*5
(last set, i know i didnt touch my chest at least once, and i believe my spotter touched the bar on the last rep)

On inclines yesterday, I got my 5 reps but liek BARELY... as in, i dont think i could have done it with 1 more lb


As for my diet, im def NOT on a bulking diet... Im really wanting to drop b/f to some degree but I dont want to do a full cutting diet, killing my calories as I have no reason to do that, nothing to get ready for... I'd rather be a bit more judicious about it and lose the b/f slowly while keeping my lifts progressing.

 

[bigred133]

The way I understood the explanation of the intermediate program on madcows site: If you miss the last rep then you just use the same weights for that lift next week and try to get all the reps.

In other words: don't drop the weight. Stay with the same weight until you get all your reps.

Are you getting enough sleep?

Are you accustomed to this much volume, meaning total tonnage per day?

Have you read the program explantion on madcows site or are you just using the spreadsheet?

Posting your increases between ramping sets will help us understand what you are doing.

I am currently using a 3x5 beginner program from Mark Rippetoe's book "Starting Strength" to prepare me for the intermediate 5x5. While my increases on squats and deads have been great, increasing the bench and incline has taken every bit of effort I can produce. The guy who trains with me has experienced this also. You are working with smaller muscle groups in the pressing excercises, so this is no surprise.

Don't be concerned. Stick with it, and don't fuck with it.

i was gripping the bar with my ring finger ON the rings... now I am gripping with my index finger on the rings...

You widened your grip? The last time I did that I blew out my shoulder. The grip is the problem. IMO: You should try a comfortable shoulder width grip, and whatever you do, don't change anything else about your form in the middle of a program.

ETA: keep your elbows in too.

 

[get456]

Are you accustomed to this much volume, meaning total tonnage per day?

Have you read the program explantion on madcows site or are you just using the spreadsheet?




You widened your grip? The last time I did that I blew out my shoulder. The grip is the problem. IMO: You should try a comfortable shoulder width grip, and whatever you do, don't change anything else about your form in the middle of a program.

The volume isnt reall an issue... Im used to WAY more, one of the reasons I picked the program was to drop the volume.

As far as reading the site... lol I dont think there is a fuckin punctuation mark I havent read... I have probably spent a total of 6-8 hours reading and following every link on that site

as for grip... i may just go back to my old grip and see what happens... cant believe an inch or two would make such a huge difference... but if i magically put up the right weights i guess ill have my answer

 

[blut wump]

Well, there's nothing wrong with your weight progression. It looks very sensible.

One thing I notice is that you're taking the Friday 3-rep weight and adding to it for the Monday top set. The top set for Monday should equal the 3-rep set from the previous Friday. It might not seem much but adding 2 pounds out of 250 as you approach old maxes is not insignificant. Do you think you'd have fared better with a couple of pounds less?

Dropping down 5 pounds as a mini-reset is a good plan, even if only for purposes of confidence. If you need to take slightly longer breathers between sets then take them. Obviously, don't get lazy but rest enough to give yourself your best shot at getting the set.

If you stall again then it might be worth looking at a different rep-range to get some progress. See how it goes and don't over-bump your weights.

Don't be afraid of touching your chest. I've never had a bar that I'd had any real chance of getting stall actually on my chest and the extra bit of momentum from chest to sticking point might be just the difference you need to get the bar through the sticking point. Not to mention that failing to touch your chest is also a fail.

My comment in the last post about a spotter giving some finger-help being a fail might be worth some explanation. Obviously, there is the aspect of its not being all your lift if it isn't 100% your own effort. Besides that, there's the aspect of straining and neural efficiency. If you know that it's going to be all down to you to get the bar through the whole lift then you're more likely to kick your mind into a bit of overdrive to push through something that you might otherwise have looked to the spotter to help with. That extra straining will go towards making you stronger as you learn to recruit more muscle fibres on demand.

Make it clear to your spotter that he shouldn't be anywhere near the bar unless you are calling for help or have been squished already.

 

[get456]

Well, there's nothing wrong with your weight progression. It looks very sensible.

One thing I notice is that you're taking the Friday 3-rep weight and adding to it for the Monday top set. The top set for Monday should equal the 3-rep set from the previous Friday.


Don't be afraid of touching your chest. I've never had a bar that I'd had any real chance of getting stall actually on my chest and the extra bit of momentum from chest to sticking point might be just the difference you need to get the bar through the sticking point. Not to mention that failing to touch your chest is also a fail.

My comment in the last post about a spotter giving some finger-help being a fail might be worth some explanation. Obviously, there is the aspect of its not being all your lift if it isn't 100% your own effort. Besides that, there's the aspect of straining and neural efficiency. If you know that it's going to be all down to you to get the bar through the whole lift then you're more likely to kick your mind into a bit of overdrive to push through something that you might otherwise have looked to the spotter to help with. That extra straining will go towards making you stronger as you learn to recruit more muscle fibres on demand.

Make it clear to your spotter that he shouldn't be anywhere near the bar unless you are calling for help or have been squished already.

The spreadsheet from Madcows site has me doing my 3 rep set friday and doing that for 5 reps on the following monday (2 days later).... I think you are saying that should actually be 9 days later?

As for not touching my chest... That was my impression, not touching is a fail.. im not doing any sissy shit and cheating isnt helping my progress in any way, so theres no point in doing it... Cheating only does one thing, its cheats ME out of real progression.

I like the last thing you said about the spotter too... that is what happened last night with my inc's, i thought i was toast for the last one but i kept pushing that fucker and it went up... spotter kept his paws off the bar as he was instructed and it worked!


Couple other things that I personally noticed as I was typing out my post with my numbers in it:
1- i had to do two full sets before I got to bench on monday, that could have made a real difference when we are talking about missing by 1 or 2lbs or a few inches from my chest.
2- i think i need to pay a bit more attention to my loading... i get lazy with the microloading and adding 2lbs on my top sets... or upwards of 20lbs on my first set could make a cumulative difference.

 

[blut wump]

Re Fri -> Mon weight, you did 248x3 on Fri and then 250x5 on the Mon. Thus my comments on the extra 2 lbs. I see you've edited since then.

Maybe that's a flaw in the spreadsheet that the percentage changed by that small amount on the Monday top set from the Friday top set. It might be worth sending Madcow a PM or email.

I wouldn't sweat the odd few pounds on earlier sets but even a small difference on the top set can make or break when the going gets tough.

Doing rows before chest would have made some difference. Lats play a big part in benching especially near the bottom of the movement. Increased fatigue would also play a part.

 

[get456]

I think any programming error is mine in being lazy with the micro loading

I will pay much better attention to this in the future for sure.

Thanks for your input despite my hard head!

 

[blut wump]

Glad to help.

Good luck.

 

[Protobuilder]

The way I understood the explanation of the intermediate program on madcows site: If you miss the last rep then you just use the same weights for that lift next week and try to get all the reps.

In other words: don't drop the weight. Stay with the same weight until you get all your reps.

Are you getting enough sleep?

Are you accustomed to this much volume, meaning total tonnage per day?

Have you read the program explantion on madcows site or are you just using the spreadsheet?

Posting your increases between ramping sets will help us understand what you are doing.

I am currently using a 3x5 beginner program from Mark Rippetoe's book "Starting Strength" to prepare me for the intermediate 5x5. While my increases on squats and deads have been great, increasing the bench and incline has taken every bit of effort I can produce. The guy who trains with me has experienced this also. You are working with smaller muscle groups in the pressing excercises, so this is no surprise.

Don't be concerned. Stick with it, and don't fuck with it.



You widened your grip? The last time I did that I blew out my shoulder. The grip is the problem. IMO: You should try a comfortable shoulder width grip, and whatever you do, don't change anything else about your form in the middle of a program.

ETA: keep your elbows in too.

You sound like one of the few wise trainees! Sounds like you're doing everything right. Nice job.

BlutWump: you deserve an award for your help in this thread. LoL

Bench is a perennial problem w/ people starting on madcow's version of the 5x5. BlutWump already covered it all. Presses can be very finicky, meaning an adjustment of just a few pounds, or shortening your rests by 30 seconds, can throw 'em off and they will stall.

 

[bigred133]

You sound like one of the few wise trainees! Sounds like you're doing everything right. Nice job.

Thanks. I didn't see any reason to assume I could be considered intermediate just because I spend the last 2-3 years in the gym trying various methods.

The gains are faster with the beginner 3x5 Starting Strength program, the testing process allowed me to find the correct starting weight, and I'll be quite used to the big lifts when I have to reset and go to the intermediate 5x5. The books explains everything about proper form for the lifts, and keeps me from doing things like changing my grip

I will also know what my true 5RM is when I start the madcow intermediate 5x5.

 

[Protobuilder]

Thanks. I didn't see any reason to assume I could be considered intermediate just because I spend the last 2-3 years in the gym trying various methods.

The gains are faster with the beginner 3x5 Starting Strength program, the testing process allowed me to find the correct starting weight, and I'll be quite used to the big lifts when I have to reset and go to the intermediate 5x5. The books explains everything about proper form for the lifts, and keeps me from doing things like changing my grip

I will also know what my true 5RM is when I start the madcow intermediate 5x5.

In a year, if you stick to this approach and work through stalls etc., you will be one of the smartest trainees online. Seriously. The most valuable aspect of running Ripp's 3x5 or madcow's version of the 5x5 is the LEARNING aspect.
If you do it, and do it right, afterwards you will be very comfortable with training in general and able to do pretty much whatever the hell you want, and be fully aware of how to do it, the tradeoffs involved, what works for you/what doesn't, etc. It's about so much more than just getting stronger.

 

[Madcow2]

The spreadsheet is just a guide. For most people it works. The bench is the most common problem but it stems from people training it harder and with lower reps than any other lift they do, being too agressive (i.e. putting hard 5RM lifts in for week 4 which they then have to do 4 previous sets and other exercises before), and either making jumps that are too big or suffering from not having microplates.

Reset it and make small jumps (i.e. below the 2.5% may even be a good idea until you get it going). Always take the smaller of two options. You will add more weight to your bench over time by making more consistent smaller jumps for long periods than stalling and taking weeks to reset every time.

 

[blut wump]

Something I realised on the issue of micro-plates is that my pair of spring collars weighs 0.5Kg and my screw-on collars weigh 1Kg for the pair. Between them, I can squeeze some 1 lb increments between having to add another pair of 1.25Kg plates. They're a cheap alternative to sourcing and buying micro-plates, especially since spring collars just litter the floor at some gyms.

 

[bigred133]

Spring collars are the best micro-loading solution I have heard yet. Stores that sell them online list the weight as 1 lb. That is perfect.

 

[Protobuilder]

Spring collars are the best micro-loading solution I have heard yet. Stores that sell them online list the weight as 1 lb. That is perfect.

Exactly. I've got 3 sets. One set is 1 lb. on the bar. The other set is 1.5 lbs on the bar. So I can do 186, for example, or 186.5, or I can put both sets on and have 187.5.

 

[get456]

Something I realised on the issue of micro-plates is that my pair of spring collars weighs 0.5Kg and my screw-on collars weigh 1Kg for the pair. Between them, I can squeeze some 1 lb increments between having to add another pair of 1.25Kg plates. They're a cheap alternative to sourcing and buying micro-plates, especially since spring collars just litter the floor at some gyms.

ive been using the chains... as illustrated on Madcows website... i have 3 pairs... 1.25lbs...2.5lbs.. 3.75lbs

 

[get456]

Update on me sucking:

I reset back one week on my bench and still missed it
I am going to go back another week starting friday.
Incline went back one week and should be able to make it tonight.

However, I have hit PR's on squats, deads and rows.

So that makes me happy

Basically I just need to learn how to program for my body.

 

[blut wump]

That's great news. Congrats.

I take the same view: if my squats are going up then anything else is a bonus.

 

[get456]

More good news from this evening-

I had missed my incline number last week... week before i had done 212.5 x5, last week i got 217.5x 3........ so instead of going all the way back to 212, i decided to try in the middle, so i got 215x5! at least I added something and didnt stall. That is still a PR for me.

This week I added another 6 lbs on my dead, so 2nd week of PR, did 361.25x 5 (got 307.5x 5 with no straps, double overhand, also a PR for me with no straps)

even though my bench has been sucking im still very happy with my progress to this point. I just came off a very light cycle (hrt really) and im 6 weeks off with my total test near 150ng and im still hitting PR's so that is great for me. Cant wait to get my test back where it should be and ill be making even better progress!

 

[coolcolj]

get the Practical Programming book - all your questions answered...

 

[get456]

thats why im here to learn and read, so i can "program" a routine better that has some real theory behind it... In fact per Madcow's suggestion I justbought Ripptoe/Kilgore's book "Practical Programming for Strength"

its ok i know its a lot of work to read a whole thread