5x5 - Another question for Mad Cow.

[Leather99]

Hi All,

I have been doing a fair bit of reading on 5x5 and have decided to give it a go once i complete my current cycle of HST. Madcow - I have read a lot of your posts on this subject and looked through the articles on your web site - firstly thanks for all of the great info. I also purchased Bill Starr's book and have worked my way through that - so I have a good idea of what the 5x5 is based upon. I don't think I am anywhere near advanced enough for the DF program yet so I have decided to stick with the SF one for at least 2 cycles to see how I get on. After looking at Bill Starr's book and your SF program I am a little confused. My basic query is that Bill advocates the same 3 excercises for all 3 days of the week breaking them down into Heavy, light and medium days. Your program however, recomends different excercises on Wednesday taken to higher weights - effectively making the program a Heavy, Heavy, Medium layout. Is this is what is intended or am I misunderstanding your or Bill's layout?

If this is what is intended do I need to be more carefull with regard to overdoing it when following your layout as opposed to Bills?

(Just to let you know in either case I will be using rows over cleans because I have never performed cleans and I don't want to spend a lot of time learning the excercise before I try 5x5 - I may learn then after 2 cycles of rows).

My other question is that I think I may have overdone the weights/volume on this cycle of HST slightly as I am suffering from some overtraining symptoms (lethargy, disturbed sleep, raised pulse rate upon rising) so I intend to take a week or 2 off before starting 5x5. Even after this should I ease myself into it more gently by doing a couple of weeks of 3 x 5 and build up to 5x5, or is it likely that I will be recovered enough to jump straight in after a week off do you think? (I would rather be over cautios and get something out of the cycle rather than over do it and screw this cycle up like I have done with HST).

Madcow - I would just like to say thanks again for all the info you have made available on this forum and your web site - I had heard of SF/DF theory, 5x5 etc before but your info makes it so much more accesable and understandable to numb nutts like me. Big up the Moo Moo Man.

 

[blut wump]

You can jump straight into the Single Factor version after a short layoff although you might be better advised to run some 3x3 for a couple days a week rather than take two straight weeks out. Aim to be hitting your current 1x5 maxes around four weeks into the program.

Another aspect of the SF 5x5 is that it isn't geared up to cycles. You just keep progressing for as long as it will take you and then adjust the work as needed to find yet more progression. Eventually it stalls and you move on to Dual Factor.

Regarding the Heavy-Light-Medium sequence, the day2 workout is light in pressing by virtue of overhead pressing being an intrinsically lower-load exercise than flat bench. Similarly, for the pullups/pulldowns as compared with BB Rows. Deadlifts are another matter, of course, but you also drop the squats down to a lighter movement. Note that the Weds workout has only four sets per exercise rather than five which further reduces the workload for this 'light' day.

 

[anotherbutters]

Was the Starr program similar to the beginner program that we hear about Rippetoe using, where you're supposed to try to increase the squat every workout (3 times per week)?

The SF5x5 as described by madcow contains a workload that most people ought to be able to do without having to deload. Since you don't load and deload, there are no cycles - you just carry on whilst you're making progress. It might last 8 weeks, it might be 20. I wouldn't stress to much about heavy/medium/light days. I haven't heard of anyone finding the workload too high.

It's generally recommended to start light in week 1 and work up to PRs in about week 4, so that ought to help give you a little deload from your HST run. If you feel you'll need more to start with, there's no harm in doing 3x5 in weeks 1 and 2 like you suggest and maybe hitting PRs in weeks 4-6.

 

[Madcow2]

All of the above is basically right. The deadlift tends to be the bomb on the Wednesday thing - I'd really rather it be highpulls or cleans but that would make it unusable for many. It's not hurting anyone though and workload is managed well enough as all the other lifts and variants directly use or imply lighter weight anyway. If I decreased the number of exercises even more no one from a BBing program would have used it thinking their body will morph into superheavyweight blob without higher levels of specialization. It's a balance in making it attractive and palatable. It's not really any less effective than the big 3 all the time although you do lose a tad of frequency on your core press and pull (bench and raw). As for being overtrained right now, handle it how you want - either cut the volume for a week or so before starting or take time off and give yourself a physical and mental vacation - rarely optimal from a pure performance standpoint IMO but a case can certainly be made. If you take the time off just start even lighter and give yourself another 1-2 weeks to ramp to current 5RMs.

 

[kethnaab]

gah! damn cow....you're saying that you'd rather someone NOT do deadlifts in the program, and I have to use deadlifts as my cornerstone.

no bullshit man, am I wasting my time trying to 5x5 while subbing deadlifts for squats?
Here's what I'm considering. Ignore the chins and dips, I do those as a cooldown, basically. Bodyweight stuff doesn't stress me in the least (14 yrs in military)

M (5x5 straight sets with ~90%ish of 5rep PR)
Deadlift - 345 x 5 x 5
Flat bench DB Press - 125 x 5 x 5
Pendlay BB Row - 205 x 5 x 5
Seated Hammer overhead - 125 x 5 x 5
Chins - 3 x 10
dips - 2 x 15

W (back off day)
Pendlay BB Row - 205 x 5 x 5
Flat DB Press - 105 x 5 x 5
Pendlay T-Bar - 160 x 5 x 5
Seated Hammer overhead - 100 x 5 x 5
Power shrug - 365 x 10 reps, 5 sets
dips - 2 x 15
chinups - 3 x 10

F (pyramid up to 5RP)
Flat DB Press - 55 x 5, 75 x 5, 95 x 5, 115 x 5, 140 x 5 (Attempt)
Pendlay BB row - 135 x 5, 165 x 5, 195 x 5, 225 x 5, 255 x 5 (Attempt)
Seated overhead - 90 x 5, 105 x 5, 115 x 5, 125 x 5, 145 x 5 (Attempt)
Stiff-leg Deadlift - 225 x 5 x 5 (honestly not sure of the weight to try)
chinups - 3 x 10
dips - 2 x 15

 

[Leather99]

Great - thanks for all of your replies. I will take this week off then hit the SF cycle you describe starting with a week of 3 x 5, then one of 4x5. I will aim for prs in week 6.

Re the excercises - I will try one cycle of purely the big 3 and one of the mixed I think and see which I prefer.

Cheers All.

 

[Madcow2]

gah! damn cow....you're saying that you'd rather someone NOT do deadlifts in the program, and I have to use deadlifts as my cornerstone.

no bullshit man, am I wasting my time trying to 5x5 while subbing deadlifts for squats?
Here's what I'm considering. Ignore the chins and dips, I do those as a cooldown, basically. Bodyweight stuff doesn't stress me in the least (14 yrs in military)

M (5x5 straight sets with ~90%ish of 5rep PR)
Deadlift - 345 x 5 x 5
Flat bench DB Press - 125 x 5 x 5
Pendlay BB Row - 205 x 5 x 5
Seated Hammer overhead - 125 x 5 x 5
Chins - 3 x 10
dips - 2 x 15

W (back off day)
Pendlay BB Row - 205 x 5 x 5
Flat DB Press - 105 x 5 x 5
Pendlay T-Bar - 160 x 5 x 5
Seated Hammer overhead - 100 x 5 x 5
Power shrug - 365 x 10 reps, 5 sets
dips - 2 x 15
chinups - 3 x 10

F (pyramid up to 5RP)
Flat DB Press - 55 x 5, 75 x 5, 95 x 5, 115 x 5, 140 x 5 (Attempt)
Pendlay BB row - 135 x 5, 165 x 5, 195 x 5, 225 x 5, 255 x 5 (Attempt)
Seated overhead - 90 x 5, 105 x 5, 115 x 5, 125 x 5, 145 x 5 (Attempt)
Stiff-leg Deadlift - 225 x 5 x 5 (honestly not sure of the weight to try)
chinups - 3 x 10
dips - 2 x 15

You do what you have to do, it's just that people who are very strong pullers or it just happens to hit them harder find it very taxing, hence it can cause problems or needs to be managed - which most people are clueless about. High pulls are a lot more tolerable so it's easier - but no one knows how to do them. Catch 22. Obviously deadlifts work well for people as no one is complaining.

 

[kethnaab]

okay

well, I found a "weak point", so to speak. In the past, I had always had a pretty even sumo and conventional

today, just to see how they felt, as I haven't done them in forever, I decided to give 'em a shot

315 x 8 on the conventional was, essentially, a warmup. but then I did a set sumo-style, and hot shit, I actually had to work for it. I really don't think it was fatigue because, as I said, the conventional was a warmup.

I almost wonder if I should do conventional on Monday, and sumo on Friday. The weight used on the friday sumo will obviously be a lot less. The first rep on 315 was no easier than the 8th rep for the conventional, but the last rep on the sumo, I actually had to pull the lil' bitch *mutters something about layoffs and injuries*

Fuckit. I'm gonna do it. Enough whining on my part, I'm just going to do it. If I start to get worn out, i'll just cut the damn things out on friday.

if it works, then yee-haw, we all learn a little something fromm my experience, eh?