5-alpha Reduction and Tren

[HyaSynth]

Let's clear up one basic fact. Trenbolone _does not_ get reduced to DHN by the 5a Reductase enzyme! First off, if a steroid is going to be reduced by the 5a Reductase enzyme you need a double carbon bond between the 4th and 5th position. The enzyme then breaks this bond and adds a hydrogen molecule at the 5th alpha postion (Hence the name). Therefore any steroid with a double bond at the 4th position can be reduced, unless there any other bonds that would obscure the enzyme from attaching. Nandrolone, 4-ESTREN-17b- OL-3-ONE, gets converted to 5a-ESTREN-17b- OL-3-ONE (DHN) by 5a Reductase. Whereas Trenbolone, 4,9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE, gets converted to 5a-9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE (I don't know the trivial name off hand) by the 5a Reductase. Chemically speaking there is a huge difference between the two. If anyone has Vida's book in front of them they could look up the potency. For Trenbolone to be converted to DHN there would be many multiple metabolic steps which in turn would decrease the amount of DHN. Notice the double carbonds at the 9th and 11th position which Nandrolone does not have.

 

[TxLonghorn]

At the risk of sounding daft, what does this mean in terms of gains, usage, things to look out for, benefits, etc.

 

[HyaSynth]

bumb

 

[TxLonghorn]

Hyasynth, any answers on what this means in terms of how to best utilize fina?

 

[LewdTenant]

here we go again!

 

[panerai]

Finally we cleared it up....
Thank you, for the research!
For guys who asked, it means that you can use Tren with Proscar( Propecia) without fear that your hairloss will get much worse!
On the other hand, if you are prone to MPB, you shouldn't use Tren at all!
Anabolicum Mister was right!

 

[GAAV KOSH]

Panerai, how does this mean that you can use finasteride with tren? If what Hya says is right, it still means that trenbolone gets 5alpha reduced, just not to dhn. This means finasteride will stop the conversion. What would be great to know is how much androgenic activity trenbolone has in the scalp compared to when it's 5alpha reduced.

 

[HyaSynth]

I checked "Androgens and Anabolic Agents" and couldn't find either Trenbolone or 5a,9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE. Interestingly I found a 17AA version of Trenbolone, which seems to be quite potent...

TxLonghorn, since I don't know what the exact strength of 5a,9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE is, I couldn't tell you what effect finasteride would have. Since anecdotal reports say that Finasteride does not increases Trenbolone's potency, I would guess that 5a,9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE is weaker/stronger/neutral to some degree.

 

[MadCow1]

This is true but we are one step closer to an answer.

 

[TxLonghorn]

Interestingly I found a 17AA version of Trenbolone, which seems to be quite potent...

(ears perking up, all excited-like) yes, and...

 

[HyaSynth]

TxLonghorn, I don't know any company that makes it anymore.

 

[Hugh Gellatts]

"For guys who asked, it means that you can use Tren with Proscar( Propecia) without fear that your hairloss will get much worse!
On the other hand, if you are prone to MPB, you shouldn't use Tren at all!"


I don't now much about chemistry and stuff. What I do know is that when I used tren and proscar I lost hair like crazy (I was on 400mg a week). Later I ran it without proscar at a gram a week, and experienced no hairloss.

 

[cockdezl]

A study showed that the two major metabolites of tren are 17-alpha trenbolone and trendione, and both had very weak AR affinity. Using finasteride, may likely prevent tren from converting to weaker metabolites, similar to Deca.

The 17-AA version of trenbolone is methyltrienolone (at least this is what Pat Arnold and Bill Roberts have stated). It is extremely potent AR agonist and also one of the only drugs shown to have true glucocorticoid binding properties. Steraloids still makes it for research purposes.

 

[GAAV KOSH]

Good point dezl, tren might not reduce to dhn, but just like nandrolone, it's probably alot less androgenic when it's 5alpha reduced. Hugh gellats must have experienced this first hand.

 

[HyaSynth]

Steraloids no longer caries methyltrienolone, as with many others. This drug is simply not availible to anyone on this board...

I believe this is the study you were reffering to (if this not please correct me):
Yao Xue Xue Bao 1994;29(1):61-7

Trenbolone and its metabolites in human urine by GC/MS analysis.

Ye L, Zhang CJ, Zhang YZ, Liu X.
National Research Institute of Sports Medicine, Beijing.
The gas chromatography/mass spectrometric properties of trimethylsilyl ether and trifluoroacetyl ester derivatives of trenbolone, combined with a methoxine group, are presented. The cleavage mechanism and some derivatization problems were observed and discussed. The positive urine of trenbolone acetate was checked with the results of epitrenbolone and possible hydroxy-trenbolone as main metabolites. Also a little trenbolone and possible estra-4,9,11-trien-3,17-dione were found.

Notice how they are using the final metabolites that are excreted. What we are concerned with, are the intermediate metabolites, although hydroxy-trenbolone is 5a-9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE.

 

[TxLonghorn]

Okay, this is more directed at hyasynth and cockdezl, "I urge you to obtain vast quantities of methyltrienolone, and then contact me at your earliest convenience. I will be willing to trade $5 (that's American, mind you, not that Canadian play money crap) for your methyltrienolone"

Okay, that is all.

 

[HyaSynth]

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

deal...

but don't be dicouraged if what I send resembles salt. Both salt and methyltrienolone look very simmilar.

Booooohahahahaahaha

 

[Anabolicum Mister]

Another study showed that there was no detected 5-alpha metabolite of trenbolone excreted - the main metabolite being 17-epitrenbolone. This is not to say that trenbolone cannot be reduced to 5a-9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE. But I would speculate that the affininty of tren to 5-alpha reductase is not great and that the conversion does not occur as readily as with most other 5-alpha reduced AS. While I have given consideration to the fact that intermediate metabolites could exist in greater quantities, almost all AS with the ability to 5-alpha reduce showed excreted 5-alpha metabolites whereas trenbolone did not.

 

[cockdezl]

HYASYNTH, that was not the study I was referencing, but thanks for posting it, I have not seen that one before. Here is the study:

APMIS 2000 Dec;108(12):838-46

"Characterisation of the affinity of different anabolics and synthetic hormones to the human androgen receptor, human sex hormone binding globulin and to the bovine progestin receptor."

Bauer ER, Daxenberger A, Petri T, Sauerwein H, Meyer HH.

Institut fur Physiologie, Research Center for Milk and Food Weihenstephan, Technical University Munich, Germany.

For the steroidal growth promoters trenbolone acetate (TBA) and melengestrol acetate (MGA) neither the complete spectrum of biological activities nor the potential endocrine disrupting activity of their excreted metabolites in the environment is fully understood. The potency of these substances in [3H]dihydrotestosterone ([3H]-DHT) displacement from the recombinant human androgen receptor (rhAR) and from human sex-hormone binding globulin (hSHBG) was evaluated. In addition, the potency for [3H]-ORG2058 displacement from the bovine uterine progestin receptor (bPR) was tested. For comparison, different anabolics and synthetic hormones were also tested for their binding affinities. For 17beta-trenbolone (17beta-TbOH), the active compound after TBA administration, an affinity the rhAR similar to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and a slightly higher affinity to the bPR than progesterone were demonstrated. The affinity of the two major metabolites, 17alpha-trenbolone and trendione, was reduced to less than 5% of the 17beta-TbOH-value. The affinity of these three compounds and of MGA to the hSHBG was much lower compared with DHT. MGA showed a 5.3-fold higher affinity than progesterone to the bPR but only a weak affinity to the rhAR. The major MGA metabolites have an affinity to the bPR between 85% and 28% of the affinity of progesterone. In consequence, MGA and TBA metabolites may be hormonally active substances, which will be present in edible tissues and in manure. We conclude that detailed investigations on biodegradation, distribution and bio-efficacy of these substances are necessary.

Note the activity of trenbolone for the progesterone receptor...gives some credence to the anecdotal evidence. Also, I did not know that Steraloids discontinued Methyltrienolone.

 

[HyaSynth]

Conclusion:

5a,9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE is weaker than Trenbolone, BUT 5a,9,11-ESTRATRIEN-17b-OL-3-ONE is still a very potent Androgen (approx. 3x Testosterone). It is very close in potency compared to DHT. On the other hand Trenbolone is approx. 4x-6x as strong as Testosterone, and slightly stronger than DHT. Therefore hairloss can occur with or without finasteride.

 

[Hugh Gellatts]

I just shaved my head. This is all now a non-issue for Hugh Gellatts