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Will letrozole + nolvadex reverse Gyno?

Zuperman said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^It did it once, And now its doing it again!!
Click to expand...

That's a hormonal rebound, it happens to some people. The point is that the combo did get rid of your gyno, and very effectively if I might add. :coffee:
 
I am 20 and have puffy nipples since 13.
I will try that combo, but will the puffyness comeback after the end of the therapy?
 
d1s0rd3r said:
I am 20 and have puffy nipples since 13.
I will try that combo, but will the puffyness comeback after the end of the therapy?
Click to expand...

Not usually. For most individuals, once the gyno is gone it tends to stay away until something happens to trigger gyno growth again - i.e. using test without an AI.
 
I did my first cycle recently of just test and didn't use a AI.. I started to get sore nipples in week 9 or 10... letro + nolva cured it.


I am going to do a 2nd cycle soon of test + EQ... this time I want to make sure I use an AI.. can I do .25/EOD of letro without it adversely affecting my gains?
 
Tallguy1 said:
I did my first cycle recently of just test and didn't use a AI.. I started to get sore nipples in week 9 or 10... letro + nolva cured it.


I am going to do a 2nd cycle soon of test + EQ... this time I want to make sure I use an AI.. can I do .25/EOD of letro without it adversely affecting my gains?
Click to expand...


how much test are you using?
 
so letro + nolva can cure non AAS/childhood/"puffy nip" type gyno? How much of each per day, and for how long? I have the type where...if it's cold, they look normal/good, but when it's warm and they're "relaxed" they look kinda puffy....would this be worth a try?
 
Mr.X said:
That's a hormonal rebound, it happens to some people. The point is that the combo did get rid of your gynecomastia, and very effectively if I might add. :coffee:
Click to expand...


This may sound like a dumb question....but since I'm dumb I'll ask. The Aromasin I have comes in a 30 ml bottle and reads 10mg/1 ml. If I fill the dropper is that 10 mg or close to it?
I just finished a test cyp 400 ew for 12 weeks and used only clomid. IMO, clomid sucks and so I am going to use aromasin to get rid of the puffy nips.
 
Any anti e may reverse estrogenic symptoms such as puffy nips but will unlikly remove a hard lump -- except for nolva, which is one of the few things it's good for.
 
Tallguy1 said:
What do you think Mr.X, is that dosage of Femera - letrozole - sufficient?
Click to expand...

hey bro,,excuse me 4 butting in, but just to let u know my exp, so far,,,im 5 1/2 wks on,,my titties were so damn puffy an itchy i couldve wore a **** bra, started letro @1.5mg ed last wed. definately reducing
 
Nelson Montana said:
Any anti e may reverse estrogenic symptoms such as puffy nips but will unlikly remove a hard lump -- except for Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - , which is one of the few things it's good for.
Click to expand...
I had a nice hard lump, I added letrozle and it is now about 80% gone, and it was a pretty SOLID lump.
 
I guess using Nolva for PCT might serve a dual purpose now since I have developed a lump and stopped it with letro.
 
Ive read a good plan is... Letro .5mg(ED) for 6 weeks followed by Nolva 20mg for a week then 10mg (ED) will help reverse gyno, even pubertal. The Nolva helps prevent E-Rebound so it doesnt come right back.

Sound good? :-)

-Legacy
 
Sounds great Legacy! I have heard similar plans to the one you suggested, only that the doses of Femara/Letrozole have been literally 5 X higher per day!! (2.5 mg/day)

2 questions then...

1) Do you think the 2.5 mg recommendation is way overkill?

2) I find from all the readings of old posts and findings on the internet, you get about a 50/50 split. Half of the people say the Femera - letrozole - will work great for them and destroyed old gynocomastia tissue they had. Whereas for the other half, surgery was the only option. The question is: At what point in the Letro treatment do you start actually seeing/feeling a difference? (2-3 weeks into it??) Or, at what point do you just throw in the towel and realize it is not going to work for you??

Thanks so much for any replies.... :)
 
blackpanther said:
Sounds great Legacy! I have heard similar plans to the one you suggested, only that the doses of Femara/Letrozole have been literally 5 X higher per day!! (2.5 mg/day)

2 questions then...

1) Do you think the 2.5 mg recommendation is way overkill?

2) I find from all the readings of old posts and findings on the internet, you get about a 50/50 split. Half of the people say the Femera - letrozole - will work great for them and destroyed old gynocomastia tissue they had. Whereas for the other half, surgery was the only option. The question is: At what point in the Femera - letrozole - treatment do you start actually seeing/feeling a difference? (2-3 weeks into it??) Or, at what point do you just throw in the towel and realize it is not going to work for you??
Thanks so much for any replies.... :)
Click to expand...

The thing w/ gynecomastia is to NIP it in the bud.
You wait to long and surgery will be the only option.
Gyno can easily be eliminated if the rights actions are taken at the right time.
 
I had small but noticeable gear induced hard lumps under both nipples for about 3 years.

Very recently I tried 2.5mg/day of letrozole for 4 weeks and both lumps are gone.

Comming off that, I got a little a little sore in the nip area so I jumped on 20mg/day of nolvadex for an additional week.

Today I am gyno free. Although I had to live completely without my libido for about 6 weeks. It's just now come back to where it used to be.
 
You should stay away from Femara unless you absolutely need it and use Armidex instead. Femara is too strong IMO and really screws with all kinds of values in your blood. Just my two cc's.
 
What do you suggest then? Especially for pubertal gyno or gyno from gear from longer ago than should be. So far all my readings have pointed to Letro followed by nolva as the only cure.

-Legacy
 
I'd rather have temporarily screwed up blood than permanent bitch tits. :) I was using Aromasin and it took Letro to get the gyno under control.
 
Yeah so far I havent read about anything fixing pubertal or gyno from gear that has been there for a while, other than Letro followed by Nolva.

If anyone knows something better, Id like to hear it. Id love to keep my sex drive and get rid of any gyno symptoms, but it seems impossible at this point, having Letro as the only real option lol.

-Legacy
 
I am going to be running some Letro with my PCT in a couple weeks hopefully.

I might try the Letro 6 weeker then follow it with Nolva since apparently it's a good combination. But DAMN I hate things that screw with my libido. Tren hurt it pretty good, it's just starting to come back fully...
 
Is there any benefit to running the Letro with the Nolva at the same time? Or do you save Nolva for afterwards to prevent any type of "estrogen rebound?"

I have read conflicting things.... Some say the combo is synergistic when used together. Others say that Nolva can interfere with plasma concentrations of Letro, making it less potent and to only use it FOLLOWING the letro. I don't know what to make of all this... :(

So yea the question is:

Letro alone until the gyno dies off (followed by an extra week just in case) and then follow it with Nolva?

Or run them at the same time?
 
Ive read of over lapping them for the last week or two, but most people seem to save the nolva for after Letro. I dont know if there is a MAJOR difference or not.

-Legacy
 
FISHTALES said:
i am one of those people
Click to expand...

hey whats up dude saw your post and some how i was blessed wit the curse of having gyno probably teen years but as an elite gymnast never really...well i did but...kept going and then as i started bodybuilding despite low bodyfat noticed the fat looking nipples (puffy) want a solution and saw your post. Prior to now i did letro but not for long enough kinda said bla wont work but now figure its better than surgery and being out of the gym for what isn't a severe case of gyno i wouldn't think...what dosage were you taking of nolva and letro? were you stacking them at same time? when did you start seeing results? thanks
 
Taper Letro from .5mg ED to 1.5mg ED and see how you react, run the Letro for 6 weeks, then the week following start Nolva at 20mg ED then the next week run Nolva 10mg ED.

If you see results with .5mg of Letro ED keep it there, some people have gone as high as 2.5mg ED, but don't go that high if you see results at lower doses. Some people have accually seen better results with low doses because it works and the sides arent as harsh.

-Legacy
 
Mac173 said:
The thing w/ gynecomastia is to NIP it in the bud.
Click to expand...


No pun intended!!!

Femara works a treat if you get it early. keep dosages as low as possible to avoid other issues.
 
Don't run them at the same time. Nolvadexx will reduce the efficacy of Femmera.

blackpanther said:
Is there any benefit to running the Femera - letrozole - with the Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - at the same time? Or do you save Nolva for afterwards to prevent any type of "estrogen rebound?"

I have read conflicting things.... Some say the combo is synergistic when used together. Others say that Nolva can interfere with plasma concentrations of Letro, making it less potent and to only use it FOLLOWING the Femera - letrozole - . I don't know what to make of all this... :(

So yea the question is:

Letro alone until the gynecomastia dies off (followed by an extra week just in case) and then follow it with Nolva?

Or run them at the same time?
Click to expand...
 
st8grad said:
Don't run them at the same time. Nolvadexx will reduce the efficacy of Femmera.
Click to expand...

Is this proven? A buddy of mine is dealing with gyno, I got him to order le-tro and nol-va, but trying to figure out a good dosing scheme for him
 
To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

SERM – Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
AI – Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

Letro and your sex drive:
Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

I hope this covers most of the issues, still feel free to PM me if you have questions. But make sure you read the entire post first.
 
I developed hard lumps behind my nipples when I was 12 years old. I've had puffy nipples ever since. I am now 30 years old. This has haunted me my entire life. Its so embarrassing. I am now going to begin my first cycle. I have been learning about cycles and this is when I learned about letrozole. I have never been so excited to read that this might reverse the gyno in my nipples. I have to give it a shot. I knew I could have surgery to remove the lumps but never really had the money and was not to sure if thats what i wanted. My question is...i have a bottle of letrozole and it reads 30ml/2.5mg/ml. I guess this means each drop is 2.5mg. What if I want to take less than that? And does anyone know how much I should be taking in an effort to get rid of these puffy nipples that have plagued me for 18 years?
 
ddwmvp said:
I developed hard lumps behind my nipples when I was 12 years old. I've had puffy nipples ever since. I am now 30 years old. This has haunted me my entire life. Its so embarrassing. I am now going to begin my first cycle. I have been learning about cycles and this is when I learned about letrozole. I have never been so excited to read that this might reverse the gyno in my nipples. I have to give it a shot. I knew I could have surgery to remove the lumps but never really had the money and was not to sure if thats what i wanted. My question is...i have a bottle of letrozole and it reads 30ml/2.5mg/ml. I guess this means each drop is 2.5mg. What if I want to take less than that? And does anyone know how much I should be taking in an effort to get rid of these puffy nipples that have plagued me for 18 years?
Click to expand...


use a oral syringe to measure the femara , read the protocol above you
 
legacy,

With the first protocol, after the 1st day, do you end your current anti-e? Right now, I'm battling with a small hard lump, and my PCT obviously didn't do shit to help with this. Ran Torem (4 weeks) + ATD (all tapered). Now I'm running 300mg 6-oxo w/ 1.1g of trans-resveratrol. Nothing working. I'm thinking of trying letro using the first protocol you mentioned. Opinions on this?
 
darwinmcduck said:
I have heard that it will stop its progression but will it reverse the puffiness?-
Click to expand...


Ive read some sound info not to combine the two
 
I have had gynecomastia since i was about 13 and im 19 now.. i am taking 2.5mg/day and i have seen improvement in the lumps but the puffiness is not going away....i lift but take no supplements that would make this condition worse... anyone know how to take care of this..
 
JHarhay said:
I have had gynecomastia since i was about 13 and im 19 now.. i am taking 2.5mg/day and i have seen improvement in the lumps but the puffiness is not going away....i lift but take no supplements that would make this condition worse... anyone know how to take care of this..
Click to expand...

these threads are all the rage lately..

letro has been known to reduce lumps with long term use, lately people say real world experience leads to the understanding that Nolva/Letro is better and more efficient at lump removal.. Scientific documentation shows that Nolva makes Letro less efficient/potent.

i would focus on free T, lowering E, and then ridding yourself of the lumps try drugs, but i'm sure surgery is a better long term options.
 
JHarhay said:
I have had gynecomastia since i was about 13 and im 19 now.. i am taking 2.5mg/day and i have seen improvement in the lumps but the puffiness is not going away....i lift but take no supplements that would make this condition worse... anyone know how to take care of this..
Click to expand...
Since it's not AAS-related, you REALLY ought to see an endocrinologist rather than trying to self-medicate. Men can get breast cancer, you know; all the parts are there, it's just that they are (usually) dormant.
 
digger said:
Since it's not AAS-related, you REALLY ought to see an endocrinologist rather than trying to self-medicate. Men can get breast cancer, you know; all the parts are there, it's just that they are (usually) dormant.
Click to expand...

Good post. My mother had breast cancer, which is why my doc was so concerned about my gyno as a teen.
 
NEED HELP!

in my case i have used Winstrol, for about 12 weeks, and in mid of cycle i used gonadotropin, and then after the cycle also... then few weeks later i started developing small lumps under my nipples. month after cycle, i took nolvadex, it reduced the size and stop progression, until a few weeks ago, nipples started to swell again. my last shot of winstrol was in april, and last gonadotropin was 10 days later.

the lump on right is size of peanut and left is bit bigger.

I was thinking of taking Letro, but its quite expensive Femara.

Anasrozole is much cheaper, by global anabolics 50 tablets x 1 mg.

also i thought of trying ovenum.

dont know what to do, please help.
 
DJLegacy2k1 said:
To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

SERM – Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
AI – Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

Letro and your sex drive:
Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

I hope this covers most of the issues, still feel free to PM me if you have questions. But make sure you read the entire post first.
Click to expand...
hi djlegacy,
I had realy high level of estradiol. But since I started to take letro my estradiol lowered to 37 from 130 pg/ml. I am happy with the result. I took 2.5 mg daily for the last 19 days. I am guessing the dose I have been taking is too high. Do you think I should take only once a week a 2.5 mg letro?
 
I am 25 and was just told that I have gyno I have had it since I was like 12. I wanted to know what dosage you recommend to start and for how long should I take it. Also I don't know if this matters but I am currently taking a medication for HIV should I consult my dr befor starting this ? Thanks
 
sam111 said:
hi djlegacy,
I had realy high level of estradiol. But since I started to take letro my estradiol lowered to 37 from 130 pg/ml. I am happy with the result. I took 2.5 mg daily for the last 19 days. I am guessing the dose I have been taking is too high. Do you think I should take only once a week a 2.5 mg letro?
Click to expand...
Hey are there any suggestions for me or should I follow what you wrote in the post. I just asked a question in the forum last night
 
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