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First Test Proving Clomid Repairs the HPTA in Steroid Abusers

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New member
Fertil Steril 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.
 
shit, i don't read the boards too often anymore, i didn't realize. sorry for the repetitive post
 
Case report
A 30-year-old patient presented with severe depression and loss of libido and energy. He admitted to the use of steroids for bodybuilding purposes for several months. He had obtained nandrolone decanoate, deca Durabolin, primobolan depot, and Winstrol from a foreign country without a prescription. He is on an antidepressant, bupropion (Wellbutrin, Glaxo Smith Kline, Philadelphia, PA). While showering, he noticed that his testicles were gradually shrinking, despite a more muscular body. He does not report anosmia or any childhood orchitis. There was no history of galactorrhea or gynecomastia. There was no family history of hypogonadism.

Physical examination of the genitalia revealed fully descended testicular size of 4 × 2.5 × 1.5 cm on the right and 3.3 × 2.5 × 1.5 com on the left. He had no hypospadias nor abnormalities in the epididymis. There was no goiter, gynecomastia, or visual field defects. Muscle strength in all four limbs was grade 5 in both flexor and extensor groups. The androgen decline in aging male (A.D.A.M.) questionnaire was applied, and he scored 8/10. For standardization purposes, blood work was done at 9 . Just before clomiphene citrate administration, laboratory examination revealed a total T of 71 ng/dL (reference range, 260–1000 ng/dL), free T of 29 pg/dL (reference range, 34–194 pg/dL), bioavailable T of 61 ng/dL (reference range, 84–402 ng/dL), LH of 3.7 miu/mL (reference range, 1.5–9.3 miu/mL), FSH of 2.4 miu/mL (reverence range 1.4–18.1 miu/mL), prolactin of 5 ng/mL (reference range, 2–18 ng/mL), and TSH of 1.36 miu/mL (reference range, 0.40–5.50 miu/mL). Free and total Ts were measured by radioimmunoassay methods. Magnetic resonance imaging did not show any abnormality in the pituitary area. Cortisol and thyroxine were also in the normal ranges. Sperm samples were not collected as the patient declined. Total T levels rather than free or bioavailable T were used for follow-up.

He was challenged with 100 mg of clomiphene citrate for 5 days. Two weeks later, his total T was 828 ng/dL. The patient reported better moods and return of libido and energy, but still continued on his antidepressant. The patient was followed up, and 2 months after clomiphene citrate challenge, he had a relapse of symptoms including tiredness and loss of libido. At this time, his total T dropped again to 301 ng/dL. A decision was made to continue treatment with clomiphene citrate for 2 months. At the end of 2 months, his total T was 705 ng/dL, and LH was 26.3 miu/L (Fig. 1). The magnetic resonance imaging of the pituitary was repeated and remained normal. Symptoms resolved and the patient continues to be followed up.



Discussion
Clomiphene citrate is an orally administered, nonsteroidal ovulatory drug typically used in female infertility management. It has both estrogenic and antiestrogenic properties. Clomiphene citrate initiates a series of endocrinologic events that cause a gonadotropin surge, which in turn causes an increase in steroidogenesis. Clomiphene citrate is thought not to have any inherent androgenic or anti-androgenic effect. In this case, we were challenging the pituitary gland to produce a surge of gonadotropins to help restore function to the Leydig cells to produce T.

Clomiphene citrate has been shown to increase T levels in both normal and impotent hypogonadal men probably reflecting the primacy of estrogen over T in the feedback regulation of male gonadal function. In a small, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study of clomiphene against placebo in impotent men with secondary hypogonadism, there was a significant rise of LH, FSH, and T with clomiphene [2]. However, the study in these 17 men did not reveal any improvement of sexual function as measured with questionnaires and penile tumescence and rigidity testing. Another study investigated the hormonal response to clomiphene in alcoholics with hypogonadism [3] and found that clomiphene can increase androgens and estrogens. The rise in estrogens was thought to be due to peripheral conversion of androgens to estrogens. Paradoxically, one study failed to show that clomiphene could restore pituitary testicular responsiveness in hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism but succeeded with human chorionic gonadotropin [4].

Clomiphene citrate has been used successfully in the treatment of idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by excessive exercise such as marathon running [5]. In that case report, reestablishment of the physiologic hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis with the return of normal T and gonadal function was achieved with clomiphene citrate (50 mg, 2 times per day) over 5 months. In our case, the reestablishment of eugonadal status was achieved with just a short challenge of clomiphene citrate 100 mg over 2 weeks, but the patient relapsed. He needed a longer course of 2 months of clomiphene citrate to maintain eugonadal status. Both cases, including ours, suggest that early intervention with clomiphene can restore the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis. We are still continuing to follow up our patient to establish long-term effects. The patient did not suffer from any hot flashes or other side effects from clomiphene citrate.

There have been no previously documented cases of clomiphene citrate improving exogenous steroid–induced testicular failure. The mechanism of initial testicular failure could be due to the suppression of LH due to the use of exogenous steroids, which in turn leads to decreased T levels. We postulate that clomiphene citrate can reestablish the axis even after steroid abuse has initially shut down the axis. It can induce the gonadotropin surge, initiate T levels to increase, and improve gonadal function and reverse symptoms. This was possible in this case as the patient was relatively young and presumably had a more elastic axis.

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the above was from the same article. makes you think that maybe we should do clomid for a bit longer than 3 weeks, as most of the people on this board seem to think.
 
"makes you think that maybe we should do clomid for a bit longer than 3 weeks, as most of the people on this board seem to think."

Probably depends on when you start the clomid. For example, if you start the clomid after your last shot of deca, then odds are a 3 week course won't be nearly long enough. If you used hCG for 6 weeks after the last shot of Deca, then ran a 3 week course of clomid after stopping the hCG, you might have a more favorable outcome.

If you're using a relatively long lasting ester and given the highly anti-gonadotrophic nature of nandrolone, it may well be that the continued low circulating levels of nandrolone, while not enough to produce an anabolic response, may be enough to continue to suppress endogenous T at higher levels for some time. Thus, although a short course of clomid will stimulate the HPTA, as soon as you stop, the nandrolone residual shuts you back down again. So one would have to continue the clomid until the nandrolone no longer affects the HPTA (+ 2months).

W6
 
wilson6 said:
"makes you think that maybe we should do clomid for a bit longer than 3 weeks, as most of the people on this board seem to think."

Probably depends on when you start the clomid. For example, if you start the clomid after your last shot of deca, then odds are a 3 week course won't be nearly long enough. If you used hCG for 6 weeks after the last shot of Deca, then ran a 3 week course of clomid after stopping the hCG, you might have a more favorable outcome.

If you're using a relatively long lasting ester and given the highly anti-gonadotrophic nature of nandrolone, it may well be that the continued low circulating levels of nandrolone, while not enough to produce an anabolic response, may be enough to continue to suppress endogenous T at higher levels for some time. Thus, although a short course of clomid will stimulate the HPTA, as soon as you stop, the nandrolone residual shuts you back down again. So one would have to continue the clomid until the nandrolone no longer affects the HPTA (+ 2months).

W6

true true. another problem with that study is that they tested at the end of two months of clomid, presumably while he was on it, or maybe just got off it. we need to see a follow up to see if his test went back down after an extended cessation from clomid. maybe his natural test was 300 ng/dL anyway. you can't tell from this study, there are a number of loopholes. but it's still interesting.

-beef
 
What a dumb study.

And it's fishy too.

First of all, it was ONE guy. His T went to 828? That's very high, and highly suspicious for someone who's supposedly supressed. Then it went DOWN to 301??? So where's the great restoration properties?

There's no fucking way the residue of deca can supress you that badly that long afterward.

Then it took ANOTHER 2 months for his T to normalize? That's OVER FOUR MONTHS of Clomid therapy! Had he taken nothing at all he would have normalized by then.


CLOMID BLOWS.
 
Last edited:
Nelson, I have noticed your opinion on clomid, i feel the same way about the stuff. Besides HCG, what do you like for post cycle?
 
In a nutshell...

If you're coming off of a long cycle, (which I don't recomened) use HCG.

If you're prone to gyno, use provion.

Any way you look at it, there coms a time when the HPTA has to take over on its own. In the meantime, as Jetison said, I'm a big believer in using specific herbs to elevate Free T and restore libido.
 
Nelson... tell us how you really feel about the study. :)

I'm not a big clomid fan myself... I'd much prefer Nolva, HCG


C-ditty
 
I went back and looked at a couple of old papers on nandrolone (Belkien et al., 1984 and Schurmeyer et al., 1984).

In the Belkien study a single 50 mg dose of Deca (ND) suppressed T for up to 20 days. The threshold level of nandrolone in blood to have an effect on T was about 1 nmol/l, which was still present on day 15 after the single 50 mg dose. Blood levels of N peaked 1 day after the single injection at about 4.5 nmol/l and slowly fell to below 1 nmol/l at day 25.

In the Schurmeyer study they administered nandrolone hexoxyphenylpropionate (NP) (mean half-life about 21 d) for 13 weeks. 100 mg/wk first 3 weeks, then 200 mg/wk the next 10 weeks.

Following the last dose, it took 16 weeks for testicular volume to return to baseline, 16 weeks for LH and FSH to get back to baseline, and 24 weeks for T to return to baseline. There was no change in prolactin in this study during N administration. Nandrolone peaked at 20 nmol/l at 13 weeks in the blood, was still at 5 nmol/l and 1 nmol/l, 8 and 16 weeks out, respectively.

The measured half-life of both ND and NP were variable among subjects, 5 - 17d for ND and 4 - 34d for NP. It appears that there is considerable variation in clearance from subject to subject.

W6
 
I dont use anything!...Never have and never will... I also will never do a large crazy cycle either.
 
Nelson Montana said:

There's no fucking way the residue of deca can supress you that badly that long afterward.

Then it took ANOTHER 2 months for his T to normalize? That's OVER FOUR MONTHS of Clomid therapy! Had he taken nothing at all he would have normalized by then.


CLOMID BLOWS.


...nelson... before blaring the trumpet....

in a number of case studies nandrolone, aka deca (though really nandrolone decoanate, if being technical)--- has been shown to suppress the HPTA for 13 months... AFTER CESSATION..

btw- with shorter cycles not involving nandrolone your "recovery theory" may have some weight(though IMHO very limited application).. but clomid therapy does not hurt and in MOST cases it helps and is likely essential..

for optimal and rapid restoration.. clomid (can be used at low dosage EOD during cycle as well..actually beneficial to lipids with aromatase inhibitor use), aromatase inhibitor(before and after..E is responsible for most suppression.. though progestins hit harder), perhaps HCG-- though not really a fan.. as it can in theory cause gyno even with aromatase inhibitors.. in theory.... and a nice dopaminergic (there are a lot so find one that suits you)..

:p
 
Sure, I guess, depending on dosage and duration, it's possible to be supressed that long, but it's unikely.

It isn't entirely correct that low T and/or suppression is due to high estrogen It's possible to have low E AND low T.

Clomid is good for lipid profiles? Not the studies I've seen. If it lowers estrogen, how can it possibly improve lipid profiles? Clomid is known to raise LDL.

The belief that HCG causes gyno is way overstated. If you take too much too soon the spike in T can cause aromatization, but that can happen with any exo test as well. Small intermitant doses of HCG almost never cause gyno, and if you took proviron along with it , it would be near impossible, unless you're REALLY, REALLY prone to it.
 
Nelson Montana said:


Clomid is good for lipid profiles? Not the studies I've seen. If it lowers estrogen, how can it possibly improve lipid profiles? Clomid is known to raise LDL.


YES
in every study clomiphene and tamoxifen reduced LDL and raised HDL

clomid and tamoxifen are SERMS, they niether raise nor lower estrogen. they are mixed agonist/antagonists of the estrogen receptor..
 
Citruscide said:

I'm not a big clomid fan myself... I'd much prefer Nolva, HCG

C-ditty

How do you use Nolva post cycle (dosgase, for how long)? I don't like clomid anymore, because although it seems to work for me, I get terrible acne. I remeber reading that Nolva @ 20mg ED should be as effective as clomid, but I would like to hear from someone who has actually tried it.
 
macro: I'll take your word for it. But that's the thing with Clomid. It seems as if every study has another to disprove the last one. I've seen studies that show it raises, LH, others that show a lowering. Same thing with SHBG. Sometimes lower, sometimes higher. Same thing with estrogen. I don't have the scientific reason behind this,(Huck? Fonz?) but I do know it has equally unpredictable effects on those who use it. Some people get a boost in libido, others a drop. It restores some guys, while supresses others. I don't exactly know the process/pathway for this but I do know if you're on the losing side of it, it really sucks. And besides, as I've contended before, it isn't needed nearly as much as people believe it is -- even if it works for you.
 
cyp said:


How do you use Nolva post cycle (dosgase, for how long)? I don't like clomid anymore, because although it seems to work for me, I get terrible acne. I remeber reading that Nolva @ 20mg ED should be as effective as clomid, but I would like to hear from someone who has actually tried it.

I just finished a short mild Fina cycle and started Clomid...150mg on day one. The next day I had difficulty getting completely erect and although I puleed it off okay I was very concerned to say the least...had ZERO problems while on. I immediately went off Clomid and all was back to normal the next day. Might have been a coincidence but who knows. I've been off for a week now and all is good.

Nelson, I'm interested in your theory of Proviron post-cycle...would this be reasonable after any mild cycle? I'll never do a long or heavy cycle...1-2 compounds for 6-8 weeks at moderate doses is all I'll ever consider. Probably gonna try 250mg test with some EQ or Deca in the late spring.

JoBu
 
Nelson Montana said:
macro: I'll take your word for it. But that's the thing with Clomid. It seems as if every study has another to disprove the last one. I've seen studies that show it raises, LH, others that show a lowering. Same thing with SHBG. Sometimes lower, sometimes higher. Same thing with estrogen. I don't have the scientific reason behind this,(Huck? Fonz?) but I do know it has equally unpredictable effects on those who use it. Some people get a boost in libido, others a drop. It restores some guys, while supresses others. I don't exactly know the process/pathway for this but I do know if you're on the losing side of it, it really sucks. And besides, as I've contended before, it isn't needed nearly as much as people believe it is -- even if it works for you.

the only thing is, those factors (i.e. people who "think" their libido drops, or people who say they have troubles getting hard on clomid) are very subjective. i mean, if you're fooling around, andyou're really paranoid about your sexual function, that'll shut you down right there. the thing is, you're coming off cycle, so of course it's going to seem like you're coming down off a high. you're likely to feel maybe lethargic, tired, and have a few weeks of low test. not everyone is going to be able to go off cycle, get on clomid and feel fine. of course they're going to say "fuckin shit doesn't work, i lost size, and i'm not horny anymore" well of course your not, you don't have supraphysiological levels of androgens floating around anymore. :) it's all part of the game. but to say clomid doens't help based on peoples opinions, well, i think there is a lot of subjectivity/bias involved. i would believe a double blind study before some guy's personal testimonial:

"I just finished a short mild Fina cycle and started Clomid...150mg on day one. The next day I had difficulty getting completely erect and although I puleed it off okay I was very concerned to say the least...had ZERO problems while on. I immediately went off Clomid and all was back to normal the next day."

i mean, no offense bro, but you must see how what you said doens't really make sense. especially since clomid has a long half life, and blood levels of clomid during the second day when you felt "normal" were likely to be as high as the day before.

-beef
 
Keep it: I see your point, but that isn't the case.

I've always recovered fine without Clomid, the once I started using it, recovery was slower. (Couldn't understand why). I've also used it alone (while not on a cycle) and it had the same results. Libido dropped. Erections were weaker. Ejaculate was practically non-existant. The effects lasted about a week after the last dose.

I've had dozens of people write to me with the same problem. They couldn't understand how they were "playng it safe" and feeling worse. It's the Clomid.

Also, why would JoBu feel better after stopping the Clomid if it was still post cycle? Nope. It's the Clomid.

JoBu: Proviron. It's all you need. During cycle if you'r prone to gyno, after cycle if you're prone to a severe loss of libido.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
quite an odd response.. many people have improved, perhaps ravening libido with clomid..

Macro, clomid is WAY, WAY overrated.

Cabergoline+ 0.5mgs 3x/week

HCG+ 2500IU's 2-3X/week

Androgel+( AS needed)

proviron(75mgs/day)(Started 6 weeks before the cessation of the cycle)

1. The proviron will take care of your libido, same as the
Cabergoline.

2. Cabergoline will erradicate prolactin and increase GH, LH and FSH.

3. HCG will increase endo test production.

4. Proviron will block HCG's aromatizing effects.

5. Androgel has a minimal impact on LH...and can be substitued
for the 10mg Dball morning theory. So that you don't get depressed due to low test levels. :)

FOnz
 
no argument on prolactin suppression...

but as to clomid being over rated..

its not really under or over rated.. it just is.. dont know anyone that loves clomid.. its a tool.. effective but not without its drawbacks.. like most others..
 
FONZ-You do realize that HCG acts DIRECTLY as L/H right?Therefore your pituitary suppresses its own output.HCG,while good to kick start testicular volume/endo T,is suppressive toward catalystic hormonal production,so you would still be wise to run something that suppress E at the hypothalamic/pituitary regions to trigger onset of hormonal initialization.
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
FONZ-You do realize that HCG acts DIRECTLY as L/H right?Therefore your pituitary suppresses its own output.HCG,while good to kick start testicular volume/endo T,is suppressive toward catalystic hormonal production,so you would still be wise to run something that suppress E at the hypothalamic/pituitary regions to trigger onset of hormonal initialization.

Thats why there is Proviron.

It increases LH dramatically.

I posted a massive thread at AF...its in the Hall of Fame.

PRroviron is almost always overlooked.

And best of all, no dreaded clomid pimples or moodiness.

Fonz
 
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