ya and the people who have liver and kidney damage probably werent taking the right ancillaries and or drinking enough water or taking a liver sup or cycle support. there isnt many people on here who would say that orals "are just for people to cash in on". they work, plain and simple, there is MANY MANY logs on here from people using these products with GREAT results. not saying they are safer or better than injectables, but for people who dont want to pin or shut down the boys as hard as some injectables, there a god send. have you even tried them b4? my guess would be no, otherwise you wouldnt be bashing these tried and true products.