I don't need a start up loan and my house is paid off. No need to try. So in that category I wouldn't know. Just seems from observation that the companies are rotating people in and out at just as fast a rate on their own credit card (Nebraska and many others) as before all this mess started. A viscious circle: The co's are desparate for sells, still extend credit in an environment where loans are going sour left and right. This is another crisis that could end up being the final nail in the coffin. I would say look at MA's stock chart for an example but then again all charts look like hell now lol.