Gulag - Bino lets start up the discussion!

[Lestat]

Yo bro, I am 2 chapters in now, great book, thanks for the recomendation.

So I can see now why this can leave a bad taste in your mouth as far as socialism/communism goes, and "left" or "progressive" in general.

The first thing I want to point out is that while I consider myself "left" and "progressive" and I think our government needs a healthy dose of socialist programs, I am nothing like the Marxist followers of the 20th century. (e.g. Pol Pot)

Leaders like Lenin and Stalin came to power during an era where you killed people who disagreed with you. There were no issues with rounding up dissenters and shipping them away. As the book mentions, this has its foundations in the Czarist regimes that pre dated the bolsheviks.

It shouldn't matter whether you are right or left, imprisoning people because of their beliefs or simply who they are is criminal.

Also, unlike the Bolsheviks, I do not being Capitalism is inherently evil. I do not think pure Capitalism is healthy either, who would want to live in a world where ideas and people are valued solely by how much money they can bring in?

I do like that Capitalism keeps people motivated and leads to increased productivity (the more you work, the more you can earn).

As I've mentioned before though, people can only make large amount sof money in a Capitalistic society with the help from thousands if not millions of other people. Where socialism comes into play for me is that someone needs to protect and advocate for the people who are not rich, who do not have power. This ends up being the great majority of people.

Capitalism unchecked would lead to a gulag type situation where wages were continually driven lower and lower, to the point where people were working in hopes that they could simply get enough to eat.

I know this is a digresion, but I'll repeat this again. My goals when trying to figure out the "best" government and leadership is to:
1) ensure productivity of the nation
2) reduce poverty and increase prosperity for everyone (particularly the lowest wage earners)
3) maintain individual freedoms
4) ensure equal opportunity for all citizens, regardless of what socio economic status they are born into

I think those goals are best met with a mix of capitalism and socialism. Its a constant balance between what is fair for the individual and what is fair for the community they live in and that ultimately provides them with the means to get educated, secure employment, and conduct business and commerce in an environment that is stable enough to support such activities.

 

[binö]

bro i don't have time to indepth reply, taking a quick lunch break
tonight when i have more time i'll give a better response
imagine the suck factor being stuck on those islands, solovotky i think they are called
wait till the arhipelago migrates east, into kolyma
that would suck some serious stilleto cack

 

[binö]

this is who i'm reading now, he wrote a three book series on the gulag, fuggin awesome, balls deep in book 2
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

one of the more famous modern russian authors

 

[Lestat]

Interesting stuff for sure bro! Those island were nuts.

 

[PICK3]

Gulag - Bino lets start up the discussion!

Lets not

 

[Lestat]

Lets not

did you mean to say "Lets knot "

 

[binö]

bro i'm whipped right now
hiking and fighting blazes all day and into the night
tomorrow i'll holler back

 

[Lestat]

bro i'm whipped right now
hiking and fighting blazes all day and into the night
tomorrow i'll holler back

no prob man. ill read some more tonight.

I'm hiking Half Dome in Yosemite this weekend.

 

[binö]

no prob man. ill read some more tonight.

I'm hiking Half Dome in Yosemite this weekend.

i used to love hiking, did it in my free time
now i dislike it, dread it more or less

 

[binö]

Yo bro, I am 2 chapters in now, great book, thanks for the recomendation.

So I can see now why this can leave a bad taste in your mouth as far as socialism/communism goes, and "left" or "progressive" in general.

The first thing I want to point out is that while I consider myself "left" and "progressive" and I think our government needs a healthy dose of socialist programs, I am nothing like the Marxist followers of the 20th century. (e.g. Pol Pot)

Leaders like Lenin and Stalin came to power during an era where you killed people who disagreed with you. There were no issues with rounding up dissenters and shipping them away. As the book mentions, this has its foundations in the Czarist regimes that pre dated the bolsheviks.

It shouldn't matter whether you are right or left, imprisoning people because of their beliefs or simply who they are is criminal.

Also, unlike the Bolsheviks, I do not being Capitalism is inherently evil. I do not think pure Capitalism is healthy either, who would want to live in a world where ideas and people are valued solely by how much money they can bring in?

I do like that Capitalism keeps people motivated and leads to increased productivity (the more you work, the more you can earn).

As I've mentioned before though, people can only make large amount sof money in a Capitalistic society with the help from thousands if not millions of other people. Where socialism comes into play for me is that someone needs to protect and advocate for the people who are not rich, who do not have power. This ends up being the great majority of people.

Capitalism unchecked would lead to a gulag type situation where wages were continually driven lower and lower, to the point where people were working in hopes that they could simply get enough to eat.

I know this is a digresion, but I'll repeat this again. My goals when trying to figure out the "best" government and leadership is to:
1) ensure productivity of the nation
2) reduce poverty and increase prosperity for everyone (particularly the lowest wage earners)
3) maintain individual freedoms
4) ensure equal opportunity for all citizens, regardless of what socio economic status they are born into

I think those goals are best met with a mix of capitalism and socialism. Its a constant balance between what is fair for the individual and what is fair for the community they live in and that ultimately provides them with the means to get educated, secure employment, and conduct business and commerce in an environment that is stable enough to support such activities.

good post bro, can't really find much to disagree with...and although the book claims that the criminal nature of stalin/lenism is rooted in tsarism, i'm finding this to be a majorly disputed point amongst russian thinkers.
the book i'm reading now claims that rule under the tsar, while fuct in a lotta ways, was much more human and liberty filled than life under lenin/stalin.
what more have you read? interesting to say the least...what this book proves to me is that you always need a check on poly powers, wether it be rep/dem...if you allow either full reign bad shit happens

 

[Lestat]

good post bro, can't really find much to disagree with...and although the book claims that the criminal nature of stalin/lenism is rooted in tsarism, i'm finding this to be a majorly disputed point amongst russian thinkers.
the book i'm reading now claims that rule under the tsar, while fuct in a lotta ways, was much more human and liberty filled than life under lenin/stalin.
what more have you read? interesting to say the least...what this book proves to me is that you always need a check on poly powers, wether it be rep/dem...if you allow either full reign bad shit happens

I'm on chapter 5 now.

What this has told me so far is that it is NEVER, EVER acceptable to imprison or punish someone for their OPINION.

I think that torture and execution is something we can do without completely as well.

 

[binö]

I'm on chapter 5 now.

What this has told me so far is that it is NEVER, EVER acceptable to imprison or punish someone for their OPINION.

I think that torture and execution is something we can do without completely as well.

where would you rather be, german concentration camp or the gulag

 

[wootoom]

holy fuckin pm's lol

 

[Lestat]

where would you rather be, german concentration camp or the gulag

gulag

 

[binö]

gulag

yeah it's a toss up...the thing is if you could hold out and stay alive in the concentration camp, once the allies came you'd be good.
in the gulag, as you'll find out, most peeps never made it out alive...and if they did, they were often sent back on some bullshit new charge.
outlasting the gulag was near to impossible, only thru western exile.

i'm reading about that dude frankel, he's mentioned in the book...a prisoner turned gulag admin asskisser turned gulag administrator, in the labor sector.
his philosphy was a prisoner is only good for 3 months of labor, after that they are worthless/decrepit/inches away from death

 

[needtogetaas]

 

[binö]

lol good save needto

 

[Lestat]

swole called, he said stop copying his shit.

 

[needtogetaas]

lol good save needto

 

[needtogetaas]

swole called, he said stop copying his shit.

He called me to. Said your scam is weak. So get a new one.

 

[the_alcatraz]

holy fuckin pm's lol

LOLz

 

[the_alcatraz]

 

[binö]

so bro, how far along?
you finding this read interesting?share

 

[wootoom]

Lock this piece of shit thread

 

[Lestat]

He called me to. Said your scam is weak. So get a new one.

what scam?

 

[Lestat]

so bro, how far along?
you finding this read interesting?share

good, but depressing, I'll update again soon, I was out of town all weekend but will get more done this week. I just got through the chapter on transport.

 

[binö]

and lestat, i gotta great stalin book that concides nicely with gulag if your interested
gives you a more complete pic of ussr
i would be willing to mail it to you

any suggestions for books for me? i only like nonfiction

 

[Lestat]

and lestat, i gotta great stalin book that concides nicely with gulag if your interested
gives you a more complete pic of ussr
i would be willing to mail it to you

any suggestions for books for me? i only like nonfiction

I'd appreciate you mailing that to me.

I read almost only non fiction.

Here is one I suggest you get ASAP if you haven't read it yet:

Amazon.com: We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families: Stories from Rwanda: Philip Gourevitch: Books

Buy it used on half.com or amazon.

Amazing book about the Rwanda genocide and all the behind the scenes nuances that went into it.

After that I'd suggest this one:
Amazon.com: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything: Christopher Hitchens: Books

Its not as easy to digest as End of Faith, but still well written and eye opening for most.

 

[Lestat]

He called me to. Said your scam is weak. So get a new one.

Also Bino, so far, I'd prefer the gulag over nazi camps at SOME points. If I had to work in the foresty area with no food, or be in a 30+ day transport with no water or bathroom, or be tortured until I couldn't walk, I'd take the nazi camp.

Nazi camp is good if I get on a train, get off, and get in the gas chamber. BUT if I had to work with Dr. Mengele and be subject to medical experiments, then I'd take the gulag and the neglect over the direct torture.

 

[Lestat]

Also in the gulag, my goal would be to be a "shock worker" and get extra food and chum up with administration to a point where I could somehow flee or escape.

That's what I don't get, why didn't these THOUSANDS of prisoners all collectively rise up on the guards? They were under prepared in most cases to deal with so many people, if they all collectively rose up couldn't they have free'd themselves?

Also, mind blowing to think that this took place in the 1950s.. when our parents were alive here in the US growing up in suburbia (in some cases) those people were getting fucked up by another world "super power"

 

[binö]

Also in the gulag, my goal would be to be a "shock worker" and get extra food and chum up with administration to a point where I could somehow flee or escape.

That's what I don't get, why didn't these THOUSANDS of prisoners all collectively rise up on the guards? They were under prepared in most cases to deal with so many people, if they all collectively rose up couldn't they have free'd themselves?

Also, mind blowing to think that this took place in the 1950s.. when our parents were alive here in the US growing up in suburbia (in some cases) those people were getting fucked up by another world "super power"

as i'm learning about the stakhonites (shock workers) they died.
the bigger ration meant death, cause the work level eventually killed them
also most the shock workers were scammers (tufka i think it's spelled)...that's how one survived, by inflating work numbers.

and the reason they didn't rise up is because they were broken by the time they got to camp.
interrogation, transport, and degrading treatment killed them long before hunger did...
were would you escape to if you were in the koylma? no where to go, you'd die of cold

 

[Lestat]

as i'm learning about the stakhonites (shock workers) they died.
the bigger ration meant death, cause the work level eventually killed them
also most the shock workers were scammers (tufka i think it's spelled)...that's how one survived, by inflating work numbers.

and the reason they didn't rise up is because they were broken by the time they got to camp.
interrogation, transport, and degrading treatment killed them long before hunger did...
were would you escape to if you were in the koylma? no where to go, you'd die of cold

good points, i gotta read more of this thing

 

[binö]

putting on muscle mass in the gulag woulda been hard, esp eating 10oz's of bread and a thin ladel of dishwater gruel a day

 

[Lestat]

putting on muscle mass in the gulag woulda been hard, esp eating 10oz's of bread and a thin ladel of dishwater gruel a day

yeah, i can't believe they could do any sort of physical activity on that died.

I'm about 1/3 way though, on the part about camp life.

I find it annoying that this author oftem times will say something and end it with "as we will see later..."

also there is some repitition where she'll return to an earlier point, its probably to go with the complaint above, but there were so many camps, and such diversity, I wouldn't bother with the same detail twice. Seems like a lot of the material was pulled from a handful of the better written memoirs.

 

[binö]

yeah, i can't believe they could do any sort of physical activity on that died.

I'm about 1/3 way though, on the part about camp life.

I find it annoying that this author oftem times will say something and end it with "as we will see later..."

also there is some repitition where she'll return to an earlier point, its probably to go with the complaint above, but there were so many camps, and such diversity, I wouldn't bother with the same detail twice. Seems like a lot of the material was pulled from a handful of the better written memoirs.

she is a pretty highly touted russian historian (though i think she is american)
and investigating such a thing as the gulag is not easy at all...not a lot of reliable info, considering how long the clamp down lasted. most peeps are long dead.
really she coulda wrote a 32 book series on the camps...but she had to cram a sheetload into one book for the masses to find interesting
i didn't really focus too much on her writing style, i was too wrapped up in imagining the gulag experience.
but the books i'm reading now, the gulag archelago series, is from an acutal prisoner, one of the more highly touted russian writers of the 20th century.

 

[binö]

so lestat, give your final anaylsis on the book
like it/dislike it?

 

[Lestat]

I'm over halfway through now. Got bogged down in the "women and children" chapter.

I do enjoy the book, its a good one for sure. Educational, and educational about a topic that most people know VERY little about.

its tough to do a single book on the entire gulag though. Each camp was different, in some cases they were COMPLETELY different.

Also, depending on the time period (e.g. 1917 vs 1938) the adminsitration and "rules" were completely different.

I am not done so these are not my final thoughts per se, but what it has really shown me is that putting people in prison for their beliefs of affiliation is ridiculous.

The merging of their criminal and political prisoners makes sense economically, but totally fucks the political prisoners.

I don't fault the guards much at all as they were victims of the same system that the prisoners were.

Stalin was mentally ill.

 

[binö]

stalin was a gangsta and i believe all soviet employees are to blame, even the guards
in any criminal org everyone has blood on their hands
if the guards would've rebelled the gulag and stalin would've collapsed

 

[Lestat]

stalin was a gangsta and i believe all soviet employees are to blame, even the guards
in any criminal org everyone has blood on their hands
if the guards would've rebelled the gulag and stalin would've collapsed

The guards were, in many cases, former prisoners (of the criminal type), also, Stalin had his leading men killed more than once to prevent any sort of overthrow of power.

If I am going to blame the guards, then I must put equal blame on the prisoners themselves for not all rising up. I haven't read the chapter on escapes yet though. Still if everyone in the camp rose up, they could easily overthrow the whole thing.

 

[binö]

The guards were, in many cases, former prisoners (of the criminal type), also, Stalin had his leading men killed more than once to prevent any sort of overthrow of power.

If I am going to blame the guards, then I must put equal blame on the prisoners themselves for not all rising up. I haven't read the chapter on escapes yet though. Still if everyone in the camp rose up, they could easily overthrow the whole thing.

and those ex-prisoners turned guards got there positions by being snitches/bitches/thieves.
and yeah, the prisoners never rose up...the book i'm reading right now by the premier russian gulag historian goes in depth on this.
military heros, war badasses, didn't do shit for rising up.
they were beaten down, both physically and mentally, before they even got to the camps

 

[Lestat]

and those ex-prisoners turned guards got there positions by being snitches/bitches/thieves.
and yeah, the prisoners never rose up...the book i'm reading right now by the premier russian gulag historian goes in depth on this.
military heros, war badasses, didn't do shit for rising up.
they were beaten down, both physically and mentally, before they even got to the camps

by why fault the guards?

If the prisoners tried to escape, they would be killed.

If the guards contested their bosses' authority, they'd be killed.

Even those at the very top were killed, and they didn't even try to raise up!

 

[binö]

by why fault the guards?

If the prisoners tried to escape, they would be killed.

If the guards contested their bosses' authority, they'd be killed.

Even those at the very top were killed, and they didn't even try to raise up!

i fault them for being cogs in a evil empire, without them the machine would've ground to a halt
not as guilty as stalin, but not innocent either
most of them were savage raping/stealing beasts

 

[Lestat]

i fault them for being cogs in a evil empire, without them the machine would've ground to a halt
not as guilty as stalin, but not innocent either
most of them were savage raping/stealing beasts

they didn't make the rules though, they played by them. Everyone was doing what they could do to survive.