DHT derivative = DHT sides? or no?

[Seth Roberts]

Binding and conversion

Whether or not a steroid has "DHT-Like" sides has to do with several things, but the most important two are binding affinity and enzymatic conversion. DHT has higher binding affinity (binds more tightly) to the androgen receptor than testosterone. Therefore, it will bind more tightly to the androgen receptor than testosterone in all tissues that are responsive to androgens (that is, tissues with androgen receptors). One notable exception is skeletal muscle, where DHT is converted by an enzyme into an inactive metabolite. A good example of this is Nandrolone which binds more strongly to the androgen receptor than DHT or testosterone. However, it is not as active in DHT target tissues (those tissues containing 5-alpha reductase) because it is converted by 5-alpha reductase to a less active metabolite. This is why nandrolone has less "DHT-like" effects. There is one caveat -- if one takes a high enough dosage of a steroid with low bindig affinity, it can still become very active at DHT target tisses even if not a DHT derivative. The same is true if one were to take enough nandrolone to overcome the enzymatic capacity of 5-alpha reductase -- then nandrolone would start binding preferentially to androgen receptors in DHT target tissues increasing the "DHT-like" side effects. Finally, if you were to take only testosterone with finasteride you could stil get "DHT-like" effects if one takes high enough doses of test to equate to the net androgen receptor activation in DHT target tissues that would have resulted if finasteride were not used.
Seth

 

[JibbyJabba]

Re: Binding and conversion

Whether or not a steroid has "DHT-Like" sides has to do with several things, but the most important two are binding affinity and enzymatic conversion. DHT has higher binding affinity (binds more tightly) to the androgen receptor than testosterone. Therefore, it will bind more tightly to the androgen receptor than testosterone in all tissues that are responsive to androgens (that is, tissues with androgen receptors). One notable exception is skeletal muscle, where DHT is converted by an enzyme into an inactive metabolite. A good example of this is Nandrolone which binds more strongly to the androgen receptor than DHT or testosterone. However, it is not as active in DHT target tissues (those tissues containing 5-alpha reductase) because it is converted by 5-alpha reductase to a less active metabolite. This is why nandrolone has less "DHT-like" effects. There is one caveat -- if one takes a high enough dosage of a steroid with low bindig affinity, it can still become very active at DHT target tisses even if not a DHT derivative. The same is true if one were to take enough nandrolone to overcome the enzymatic capacity of 5-alpha reductase -- then nandrolone would start binding preferentially to androgen receptors in DHT target tissues increasing the "DHT-like" side effects. Finally, if you were to take only testosterone with finasteride you could stil get "DHT-like" effects if one takes high enough doses of test to equate to the net androgen receptor activation in DHT target tissues that would have resulted if finasteride were not used.
Seth

Good answer... exactly what I am looking for...

Where does this leave Primo (at moderate to low doses)?

In you opinion, what (besides Deca) would be safest for one to use when concerned with prostate issues and hairloss?

 

[Seth Roberts]

primo

Moderate to low dose primo should not be very stimulating at the prostate or other DHT target tissues. Deca at moderate to low does is safest for the prostate and DHT target tissues but aside from deca, I would argue for testosterone at medium doses with concurrent use of finasteride. Other nortestosterone derivatives such as norethandrolone might be a good choice but not much data on metabolite formation. There is just not much that will selectively tough the muscle over prostate and even if there is, it is still dose dependant (i.e. nandrolone).
Seth

 

[Nelson Montana]

A lot of splitting hairs here. (No pun intended).

True, winny has a strong affinity to the AR (as does DHT) regardless of how androgenic it is or isnt. Besides, that's a misleading term, since DHT is pure androgen yet doesn't impart many of the typical androgenic side effects. Actually, Seth gave the perfect explanation to this so I'll adress a different point.

DHT isn't quite the cuprit to either hair loss or BPH as once thought. If all that was needed was low DHT they'd have a cure for baldness. At any rate, DHT is necessary for libido and erectile function so I believe it's barking up the wrong tree.

Contrary to popular belief, Primo is actually milder on the hair than test. I have a conversation with Dan Duchaine on tape somewhere in my apartment that I have to track down where he explains why. It's essentially what's been mentioned here. A derivitive or a precursor isn't the same. i.e. pro-hormones and testosterone. BIG difference!

JJ's assumption that D-bol is harder on the hair is also correct. For some reason it just loves strangulating hair folicles.

Sorry I couldn't offer a more scientific explanation for this. At any rate, it's all speculation to a degree. Hair loss is still a big mystery and it's doubtful they'll find a cure in our lifetime. If someone does. he's going to be as rich as Bill Gates. But using Proscar to slow down baldness is like using a guillitine to cure a headache -- or more accurately, using castration to...well, slow down hair loss.

 

[JibbyJabba]

Good input y'all...

Seth: What would you consider to be a moderate to low dose of Test?

Nelson: It's clear you are against finasteride as a treatment for balding, but how do you feel about it as a means of preventing BPH? Also... do you feel the same way about finasteride with regards to someone using Testosterone, as you do about your average joe using it?

Thanks!

JJ

 

[Nelson Montana]

Originally posted by JibbyJabba

Nelson: It's clear you are against finasteride as a treatment for balding, but how do you feel about it as a means of preventing BPH?
........................................
Hate it. I even think Saw Palmetto is a bad idea. It works, but DHT is wonderful stuff. It's a shame to kill it. When I get symptoms of BPH, I use Nettles. It still blocks DHT but it has the nce little side effect of also lowering SHBG -- so at least you 're walking away with something out of the deal!
........................................

Also... do you feel the same way about finasteride with regards to someone using Testosterone, as you do about your average joe using it?
........................................
No difference. (Although you know it makes matters worse if you use deca) Taking T is going to do things to you. If you're going to use it, let it work. It's funny. When you take T, it raises DHT. But DHT prevents gyno. So what do people do? They try to block the DHT and then take anti-e's for the gyno. Does anyone see the absurdity is this?

The thing with hair is this: If cycles are reasonable, it isn't going to make that much of a difference. Hair loss is genetic (mom's side) and it's also inevitable. Everyone's hair thins as they age. (Except for Rebulican senators and the homeless -- don't know why).

Has anyone seen the "Pumping Iron" Anniversery release? Everyone still has their hair! (Except for Katz, but he was bald at 25)

 

[Seth Roberts]

Testosterone doses

It has been shown in several studies that 125 mg per week of testosterone enanthate is sufficient to sustain free and total testosterone levels at the high end of the nomal range for a halthy individual. 200 mg per week is the general replacement dose used in clinical practice. 600 mg per week has consistently been shown to elevate free test levels to about 5-6 times normal levels. I therefore like 300 as a low dose (doubles free and total test on average) and 500 to 600 as a moderate dose. I agree with Nelson that you don't want to block all DHT. If you could elevate your free test to 2-4 times normal while keeping DHT levels in the mid to low normal range then one could expect to maitain sexual and prostate function while getting some nice anabolism. This would take some titration of finasteride doses to arrive at a steady DHT level at a given dose of testosterone but could theoretically be maintained for longer perods of time with minimal liability with regard to the prostate.

 

[nizoralman]

[QUOTE
Hate it. I even think Saw Palmetto is a bad idea. It works, but DHT is wonderful stuff. It's a shame to kill it. When I get symptoms of BPH, I use Nettles. It still blocks DHT but it has the nce little side effect of also lowering SHBG -- so at least you 're walking away with something out of the deal!

Although they do nothing for the prostrate, topical androgen blockers are another option for those who are loosing their hair. Topical spironolactone has been shown to do this with no systemic side effects. Nizoral shampoo is another option.The following is a link to a study done on spironolactone and hair loss:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/spiro2.htm

Nizoral Man
[email protected]
http://www.wholesalehairproducts.com/