Zinc: strong aromatase inhibitor - MUST READ!!

[gainerxxl]

I´m very active on a big german anabolics dicussion board, which has a great member, who´s a medical doctor. He´s really into steroids and knows his stuff like few others. About a year ago, he suggested to use zinc supplements at high dosages when cycling test. I didn´t buy it at first, nor did most of the other members.

Now, one year later, everybody uses zinc at 100-150mg/day as their only anti-E. It works great up to 750mg Test/week, by inhibiting aromatase activity as well as 5-alpha reductase (less DHT=less hair loss=good for prostrate) to a surprising degree.
This actually makes zinc an aromatase inhibitor, not an anti-E.

On my first cycles of only 250mg test-E/week (second cycle 250 every 5 days) I experienced some bloat, sore nipples and buildup of fatty tissue around my nipples, I had to use Nolva to get rid of that.

Now I use up to 750mg of test/week along with 150mg of a high quality zinc supplement and I don´t even bloat one bit, my nipples are fine, and so is my prostrate.
It is used by hundreds of Juicers in Germany now, almost everybody reports great success.

On top of that, it´s proven to be non toxic at those dosages, it helps to clear up skin (due to DHT reduction, I guess) and it costs next to nothing. It´s properties make it a must for post cycle recovery as well, the studies I will present clearly show that.

I was sceptical and so will you, but please give it a try, you´ll be surprised.
I did some research and found lots of studies that indicate an inhibition of aromatase and 5-alpha reductase. Most were performed on rats, but there´s some on humans, but I couldn´t find any about large dosages of test and zinc supplementation.

You can give me Karma, when you actually try it, you´ll see it works!

 

[gainerxxl]

Dietary zinc deficiency alters 5 alpha-reduction and aromatization of testosterone and androgen and estrogen receptors in rat liver.

Om AS, Chung KW.

Department of Food and Nutrition, College of Home Economics, Hanyang University, Seoul, Korea.

We studied the effects of zinc deficiency on hepatic androgen metabolism and aromatization, androgen and estrogen receptor binding, and circulating levels of reproductive hormones in freely fed, pair-fed and zinc deficient rats. Hepatic conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone was significantly less, but formation of estradiol from testosterone was significantly greater in rats fed the zinc-deficient diet compared with freely fed and pair-fed control rats. There were significantly lower serum concentrations of luteinizing hormone, estradiol and testosterone in rats fed the zinc-deficient diet. No difference in the concentration of serum follicle-stimulating hormone was observed between the zinc-deficient group and either control group. Scatchard analyses of the receptor binding data showed a significantly higher level of estrogen receptor in zinc-deficient rats (36.6 +/- 3.4 fmol/mg protein) than in pair-fed controls (23.3 +/- 2.2 fmol/mg protein) and a significantly lower level of androgen binding sites in rats fed the zinc-deficient diet (6.7 +/- 0.7 fmol/mg protein) than in pair-fed control rats (11.3 +/- 1.2 fmol/mg protein). There were no differences in hepatic androgen and estrogen receptor levels between freely fed and pair-fed controls. These findings indicate that zinc deficiency reduces circulating luteinizing hormone and testosterone concentrations, alters hepatic steroid metabolism, and modifies sex steroid hormone receptor levels, thereby contributing to the pathogenesis of male reproductive dysfunction.



[Effect of zinc deficiency on apoptosis of spermatogenic cells of rat tostis]

[Article in Chinese]

Li J, Xu P, He Z.

Department of Anatomy, Chinese People's Armed Police Force Medical College, Tianjin.

OBJECTIVE: To study the changes of testis apoptosis in zinc deficient rats will promote the understanding of the molecular mechanism of zinc deficiency in the development and function of testis. METHODS: 16 Wistar rats were divided randomly into zinc control group (ZC) and zinc deficiency group (ZD). The serum and testis zinc contents were measured with atomic absorse method; the apoptosis of spermatogenic cells was studied with in situ nick translation (ISNT) technique. RESULTS: Under zinc deficient status, the zinc contents of the serum and testis were obviously decreased (P < 0.05). The apoptosis number of spermatogenic cells was significantly increased (P < 0.01). CONCLUSION: The adequate amount of zinc is essential to the development of testis, whereas zinc deficiency can harmfully affect it. This effect is perhaps carried out in different ways, but the increasing apoptosis numbers of spermatogenic cells might be one of molecular miechanisms of the effect of zinc defficiency on testis development.

PMID: 10923414 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[newpump]

Any specific types of Zinc to use gainer? Like I know with ALA I prefer r-ALA - is all zinc built equal?

 

[gainerxxl]

Dietary Zinc Deficiency Alters 5 Alpha-Reduction and Aromatization of Testosterone and Androgen and Estrogen in Rat Liver," Ae-Son Om and Kyung-Won Chung, published in the April 1996 Journal of Nutrition, 126[4]: 842-848.
Ae-Son Om and Kyung-Won Chung are from the Department of Anatomical Sciences in the University of Oklahoma College of Medicine. They had done a previous study in 1990 on why alcoholics and coke addicts develop feminine characteristics. In this study, they had found that the hepatic aromatization of androgens to estrogens is enhanced by alcohol ingestion and cocaine administration. Both alcohol and cocaine also lower an individual's zinc levels, sometimes beyond simple depletion and into actual deficiency. In their new work, they sought an anatomical/biological explanation of why this occurred.
The researchers included three populations of rats in their study. The first group was fed a zinc-deficient diet; the second were fed a controlled but adequate diet of zinc; and the third group was comprised of free feeders.
After a pre-determined time, the scientists measured the rat’s Testosterone and estrogen levels and measured and counted their androgen and estrogen receptor sites.
Among the zinc deficient rats, they found the androgen receptor sites had reduced in number and size by 40%. At the same time, the estrogen receptor sites increased by 60%! The liver's conversion of Testosterone to estrogen was significantly greater in the rats on the zinc deficient diet. The same rats that had the decrease in androgen receptor sites showed significantly reduced amounts of luteinizing hormone and Testosterone.
Having a zinc-deficient diet evidently increased the aromatization of Testosterone and the formation of estradiol, the primary estrogen hormone.
Another study that seems to confirm my need to eat crow is "Androgen Receptors in the Ventral Prostate Gland of Zinc Deficient Rats,"Life Science, January 27, 1986, 38 [4]: 351-356. This study involved two groups of rats; one group fed a zinc deficient diet for three months, and one group fed a controlled (zinc adequate) diet for the same amount of time. Analysis of the data revealed that the number of androgen binding sites of the zinc deficient rats' prostates was 31 fmol/mg cytosal protein. This was significantly lower than the 84 fmol/mg protein of the controls.
Do the math! Divide 31 by 84 and you have a 63% reduction in the number of androgen binding sites!
To synopsize, if some of the Testosterone has nowhere to go — nowhere to bind — it’ll continue to circulate in the blood, finally being aromatized in the liver and producing estrogen, which could lead to gynecomastia.
So it appears that the simple addition of adequate zinc to your diet will increase Testosterone and the number of receptors for Testosterone, in addition to reducing estrogen and the number of receptors for estrogen, as well as preventing decreases in LH from happening.

 

[gainerxxl]

Zinc status and serum testosterone levels of healthy adults.

Prasad AS, Mantzoros CS, Beck FW, Hess JW, Brewer GJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, Wayne State University School of Medicine, Detroit, Michigan, USA.

Zinc deficiency is prevalent throughout the world, including the USA. Severe and moderate deficiency of zinc is associated with hypogonadism in men. However, the effect of marginal zinc deficiency on serum testosterone concentration is not known. We studied the relationship between cellular zinc concentrations and serum testosterone cross-sectionally in 40 normal men, 20 to 80 y of age. In four normal young men (27.5 +/- 0.5 y), we measured serum testosterone before and during marginal zinc deficiency induced by restricting dietary zinc intake. We also measured serum testosterone in nine elderly men (64 +/- 9 y) who were marginally zinc deficient before and after 3 to 6 mo of supplementation with 459 mumol/ d oral zinc administered as zinc gluconate. Serum testosterone concentrations were significantly correlated with cellular zinc concentrations in the cross-sectional study (lymphocyte zinc versus serum testosterone, r = 0.43, p = 0.006; granulocyte zinc versus serum testosterone, r = 0.30, p = 0.03). Dietary zinc restriction in normal young men was associated with a significant decrease in serum testosterone concentrations after 20 weeks of zinc restriction (baseline versus post-zinc restriction mean +/- SD, 39.9 +/- 7.1 versus 10.6 +/- 3.6 nmol/L, respectively; p = 0.005). Zinc supplementation of marginally zinc-deficient normal elderly men for six months resulted in an increase in serum testosterone from 8.3 +/- 6.3 to 16.0 +/- 4.4 nmol/L (p = 0.02). We conclude that zinc may play an important role in modulating serum testosterone levels in normal men.

PMID: 8875519 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Experimental zinc deficiency in man. Effect on testicular function.

Abbasi AA, Prasad AS, Rabbani P, DuMouchelle E.

Dietary zinc intake was restricted (2.7 to 5.0 mg daily) for 24 to 40 weeks in five male volunteers. Their mean age was 57 years. Oligospermia (total sperm count less than 40 million per ejaculate) was induced in four out of five subjects. A decrease in the sperm count occurred during zinc restricion and the early phase of zinc repletion before body stores of zinc were restored to normal. The duration of oligospermia in the four subjects ranged from 6 to 14 months. Oligospermia was reversed after zinc supplementation in physiologic amounts. The baseline sperm concentration and total sperm count per ejaculate in all five subjects dropped significantly (p < 0.05) after zinc restriction and returned to normal 6 to 12 months after zinc supplementation. The decrease in sperm count coincided with decline in Leydig cell function and was reversed after zinc supplementation in low doses. Our study has demonstrated that dietary restriction of zinc can affect testicular function adversely. This effect of zinc deficiency, however, is a reversible process and can be corrected by proper supplementation with zinc.



Zinc Deficiency

Zinc inhibits the levels of aromatase in the body. If zinc levels are inadequate, the levels of aromatase rise. Zinc is also necessary for normal pituitary functions. Without zinc, the pituitary gland cannot release the luteinizing and follicle stimulating hormones that stimulate the testes to produce testosterone. An interesting note; while zinc is necessary for testosterone production, testosterone is necessary to maintain levels of zinc in body tissues.

 

[bazilbb]

it would b great if u tell us what natural food, veggies, fruits etc. has ZINC in good quantity in them.........

 

[CLOBRO]

What I don't get is that if some DHT blockers like proscar/propecia cause gyno and zinc is a dht blocker, how is zinc an aromatase inhibitor?
Zinc is supposed to work well to keep testosterone levels up too. Am I missing a piece of the puzzle?

DHT helps to regulate estrogen from Patrick Arnold:
Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:

"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50%.

Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn’t it?

Conclusion

People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see, this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break. I now pronounce June "DHT Appreciation Month". Thank you.

by Pat Arnold

 

[Silent Method]

Too much zinc...

Nutrient
Zinc

Toxic Dosage
75 mg

Symptoms and Diseases
Gastrointestinal irritation, vomiting, adverse changes in HDL/LDL cholesterol ratios, impaired immunity. Nausea, anemia, bleeding in stomach, premature birth and stillbirth, abdominal pain, fever. Can aggravate marginal copper deficiency. May produce atherosclerosis.

The toxic dosage can change acording to what kind of zinc supplement is used as well as the individual. Athletes can utilize more zinc than others, but I'd be very weary of high end doses.

 

[Triple J]

Some recommended sources of high quality zinc supplements would be helpful!! I think ZMA is a good quality zinc, but overpriced!! So I take zinc gluconate and zinc picolinate that I got at Vitamin World cheap, but I don't really trust Vitamin World. Should I try somethig else? Will increase my dose anyway- thanks.

 

[gainerxxl]

Re: Too much zinc...

The toxic dosage can change acording to what kind of zinc supplement is used as well as the individual. Athletes can utilize more zinc than others, but I'd be very weary of high end doses.

Zinc at dosages up to 200mg/day are proven to be non toxic, even for prolonged periods of time. Studies showed no adverse effects of high dose zinc supplementation in healthy males, you only have to take some copper with it, if you take very much zinc for very long periods. Zinc somewhat interferes with copper uptake. Most Multi Vitamin/mineral supps contain copper anyways.

I´ll dig up the studies, zinc is not toxic, especially when taken for a short time during a cycle.

Best zinc is zinc-chelate or zinc piccolinate. KAL produces a great zinc supplement, it´s called zink 100+ and costs about 12 Bucks for 100 Tabs with 100mg zinc per tab in high quality chelate form.

 

[Numberfive]

I remember doing a ton of research prior to my first cycle, and one of the posts I found was by Fonz at it was all about zinc. He raved about it. He said it was an absolute must if your going to use exogenus hormones. Some of the other posts I remember reading mentioned that zinc lozenges were the best way to maintain adequate levels of the supplement in the bloodstream because of poor uptake from pills. My apologies if I misquoted Fonz, but I'm pretty sure he's the one who made the post.

It's worthwhile to do a search on Fonz's posts anyway because they all contain great information.

 

[Golfer18--old]

Bump

 

[buffdoc]

Here we go again w/ the "cut and paste" expertise.
I am sure I could dig up some papers that I've read in the past that show doses of Zinc picolinate over 150mg/day taken chronically can suppress the immune system, but I won't. Nor will I quote the dermatopathologists who tell me that zinc has minimal effect on 5-AR.
What I WILL tell you is that when I was on no test and took zinc, my E2 levels were fine. When I got on test, 100mg/day of Zinc picolinate seemed to do nothing to keep my E2 levels from inching up.

 

[justwannagetsum]

The toxic dosage can change acording to what kind of zinc supplement is used as well as the individual. Athletes can utilize more zinc than others, but I'd be very weary of high end doses.
I have seen first hand a guy who had the flu and took zinc lozenges, he went hrough the bag in 2 days, by the end of the 2nd day he had to be hospitalized and had to have chelation therapy. He was puking all over the place. If he od'd on lozenges, supplements are easily able to raise to txic levels. My .02
JWGS

 

[SOLID]

so what is just a good amount to take for a healthy well being? I don't believe in over doing anything.

 

[buffdoc]

so what is just a good amount to take for a healthy well being? I don't believe in over doing anything.

15-30mg per day good quality like picolinate. Good for the prostate (please people, it's prostate, not prostrate! Prostrate is when you 're down on the ground, either due to illness or out of respect to a superior . I don't think the prostate thing is related to 5-AR inhibition, however.

 

[gainerxxl]

Here we go again w/ the "cut and paste" expertise.
I am sure I could dig up some papers that I've read in the past that show doses of Zinc picolinate over 150mg/day taken chronically can suppress the immune system, but I won't. Nor will I quote the dermatopathologists who tell me that zinc has minimal effect on 5-AR.
What I WILL tell you is that when I was on no test and took zinc, my E2 levels were fine. When I got on test, 100mg/day of Zinc picolinate seemed to do nothing to keep my E2 levels from inching up.

This usn´t just cut and paste expertise, it´s based upon the experience of very many german juicers on the anabolic boards, myself and some competitive bodybuilders I know personally. It works great for most who tried it. I have used a lot of test in the past, always had some estrogen related side effects until I started taking 150mg of zinc daily. 500mg of Testex/week gave me no bloat at all, I actually stayed ripped and veiny.
Some long time juicers in my gym are still grateful that I talked them into taking 100mg of zinc along with their test. They were absolutely suprised about the strong effect.

I just thought some studies along with personal experience would make my post more informative.

BTW: I´m not some stupid, half educated "study cut and paster" as you might think. I have a bachelor degree in theoretical medicine, now mastering in pharmacology and microanatomy.

 

[John G]

i think..

I think it is safe to say were better off sticking to what has been tested time and time again with minimal or no side effects.

Buffdoc made a good point about what he calls "the cut and paste expertise". Besides BUffdoc has anyone had experience with zinc while on cycle and E levels?

gainerxxl:
This isn't a flame against you. The information you posted is excellent but where is the actual evidence or real life testing?

 

[gainerxxl]

so what is just a good amount to take for a healthy well being? I don't believe in over doing anything.

30mg is sufficient when off. But as an aromatase inhibitor when on test, only 100mg and above will do the trick. Make sure to use a high quality zinc supplement (I highly recommend Zinc 100+ by KAL, USA).

 

[hhajdo]

Re: Too much zinc...

The toxic dosage can change acording to what kind of zinc supplement is used as well as the individual. Athletes can utilize more zinc than others, but I'd be very weary of high end doses.

Good post by SilentMethod...
100-150 mg ED is definately a bad idea.

 

[gainerxxl]

Re: i think..

I think it is safe to say were better off sticking to what has been tested time and time again with minimal or no side effects.

oh, yes, you´re right, Anastrazole is proven to have no long term effects on males, and who cares about lipid profiles? Tamoxifen is surely harmless, complete estrogen suppression by letrozole can only be great for your health....

Zinc is non toxic over the duration of a cycle, works surprisingly good and costs about nothing.

 

[buffdoc]

Re: Re: Too much zinc...

Good post by SilentMethod...
100-150 mg ED is definately a bad idea.

Yeah, these are the dose ranges where they found immune suppression.

 

[gainerxxl]

Re: Re: Re: Too much zinc...

Yeah, these are the dose ranges where they found immune suppression.

As I mentioned above, you should take additional copper, if you plan to take high dose zinc for a longer time. All the studies I have read about zinc toxicity and immune suppression were caused by an deficieny of copper, since zinc somewhat interfers with copper absorption.
Any good multi-vitamin/mineral supplement has a good amount of copper in it (my favourite is Multi Pro 32 X by AST, contains 60mg of zinc and copper) and is a must on any cycle.

 

[Silent Method]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Too much zinc...

All the studies I have read about zinc toxicity and immune suppression were caused by an deficieny of copper, since zinc somewhat interfers with copper absorption.

I have seen a study citing abnormally high zinc levels as the direct cause of neutropenia.

IMO, simply taking steps to assure your copper levels are up to snuff is no way to deal with the high levels of zinc your advising.

 

[buffdoc]

[
BTW: I´m not some stupid, half educated "study cut and paster" as you might think. I have a bachelor degree in theoretical medicine, now mastering in pharmacology and microanatomy. [/B][/QUOTE]

I wsa cetainly not implying that you were. I notice that the only thing in my post you responded to here was the "cut and paste" remark (which stems from a recent thread I initiated about "scientific evidence" and how it gets bandied about on this board, not as a personal insult to you). I sense your enthusiasm for zinc; in fact, I've been telling my male patients on HRT for years to take some extra Zn to possibly inhibit their aromatase. The zinc/aromatase connection is not "new" news.
But "Zinc: A Powerful Aromatose Inhibitor!?" I don't think so.
BTW, it seems that all your studies, both rat and human, were done with zinc deficient subjects!! Does giving them zinc and seeing hormones change necessarily translate into large men on high-dose test reliably inhibiting aromatase enough to avoid estrogenic symptoms? You and your friends seem to think so. But why are you the first to find this out?
Just be wary of saying it's fine to take 200mg per day of zinc; people may NOT take that w/ a grain of salt, and what if they're juicing, perhaps their immune systems are down slightly and then they hit it off w/ large doses of zinc?
You seem to have a personal emotional investment in the issue, you have some degrees, and you and your friends are doing fine with this regimen. But your post comes off like "Hey, this is the greatest and the latest! And completely safe, too. And look, the studies prove it!" That's the part I take issue with.
I'd like nothing better than to have a safe, non-toxic, "natural" aromatase inhibitor. But with many vitamins and minerals, excessive levels can be as bad as deficiency levels.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I can't belive what I'm about to say:

I agree with Pat Arnold. (gulp)

I think I have an adversion to zinc ever since I did an interview with Victor Conte. (errrg)

Anyway, this is the deal: Zinc is necessary for immune function and development of hormone prduction, including testosterone. (As well as increasing sperm count and seminal fluid) It also controls estrogen and prolactin. (For all you prolactin paranoids). Sounds good, eh? But it's nothing new. Vince Gironda was talking about this in 1965.

But like all nutrients, MORE doesn't mean more effect. Any nutrient can only allow the body to work optimally and it will discard the rest. But in the case with zinc, it doesn't leave the body very quickly so a toxic dosage can result over time. An extra 25 mgs along with a balanced diet is a good idea and it's more than you can use and need. Over 150mgs a day is definitely not recommended.

 

[40butpumpin]

This usn´t just cut and paste expertise, it´s based upon the experience of very many german juicers on the anabolic boards, myself and some competitive bodybuilders I know personally. It works great for most who tried it. I have used a lot of test in the past, always had some estrogen related side effects until I started taking 150mg of zinc daily. 500mg of Testex/week gave me no bloat at all, I actually stayed ripped and veiny.
Some long time juicers in my gym are still grateful that I talked them into taking 100mg of zinc along with their test. They were absolutely suprised about the strong effect.

I just thought some studies along with personal experience would make my post more informative.

BTW: I´m not some stupid, half educated "study cut and paster" as you might think. I have a bachelor degree in theoretical medicine, now mastering in pharmacology and microanatomy.

Someone help me out here, "cut and paste expertise?" Maybe I'm missing something here so if I am someone please tell me.

buffdoc, I thought your thread suggested not throwing results of studies AT each other or using them to make one appear more intelligent than in reality. By the way I've not seen much of this during my time here. You can't possibly be suggesting not using study results at all, are you? These things generate interesting discussion, like what's taking place right now in this thread. I sure didn't interpret this as throwing a study at someone without knowing what it was even saying. Man it's gonna get awful boring around here if every time someone posts a result of a study the "cut and paste expertise" police comes running. I mean how do ideas grow if not for this sort of stimuli?

Again, if I'm just being an ass I'm sorry but this just doesn't seem right to me.

Peace.

 

[bunkka]

I take a nightly Zinc, Magnesium, B6 supplement stack (purchased seperately, which is cheaper yet should do the same thing as ZMA 'products'.... right?)

Would it be taken optimally for these purposes, before bed, as well?

I'm wondering how this correlates with zinc's function of improving hormone levels while sleeping.

Interesting.

 

[notatrase]

Someone help me out here, "cut and paste expertise?" Maybe I'm missing something here so if I am someone please tell me.

buffdoc, I thought your thread suggested not throwing results of studies AT each other or using them to make one appear more intelligent than in reality. By the way I've not seen much of this during my time here. You can't possibly be suggesting not using study results at all, are you? These things generate interesting discussion, like what's taking place right now in this thread. I sure didn't interpret this as throwing a study at someone without knowing what it was even saying. Man it's gonna get awful boring around here if every time someone posts a result of a study the "cut and paste expertise" police comes running. I mean how do ideas grow if not for this sort of stimuli?

Again, if I'm just being an ass I'm sorry but this just doesn't seem right to me.

Peace.

Completely agreed. I like to have an author post studies to support his standpoint. It lets me know that he is not bullshiting or misinterpreting data. It adds definite credibility IMHO.

 

[MR. BMJ]

One thing that should not be overlooked, and buffdoc picked-up on this very nicely, is that there was a deficiency in these subjects. I'm no expert in this area, but I do know that this can and will make a difference.

Interesting thread though. The only way to really answer this question will probably be to have tests run while taking zinc (before starting as well...obviously).

I take between 50-100mg's per day when I remember...but usually only when I have colds...lol.

I don't think anybody is being an ass here...150-200 seems a little high though, as stated for toxicity reasons.

BMJ

 

[buffdoc]

40BP and notatrase,
No, I'm most definitely NOT against studies, as I stated more than once in the other thread. What I think we need is a more critical eye, both when pasting in these studies, and when reading them.
For example, the 3 or 4 studies our German friend posted were all rat studies, except, I believe, for one human study, and they ALL dealt w/ subjects who had experimentally induced zinc deficiencies. Some were not even in vivo. We can really draw NO conclusions from those studies about using zinc as an anti-aromatase!
And yet, partly based on these studies, we are encouraging high-dose zinc therapy when there IS evidence that that may be harmful? Remember the original post, which was very enthusiastic.
Remember Chrysin? A great aromatase inhibitor, at least in vitro. But in vivo, it was a complete bust. Many ppl (including yours truly) spent their $$ on it. Fortunately, no toxicity was forthcoming.
So to answer both of ya'lls comments: it's great to post studies or abstracts to support our standpoints. The problem here, is that this was, if you will, a bait and switch. The studies were NOT related to his views about zinc use for juicers, they only SEEMED to be, at least with a cursory read. Further examination revealed otherwise. I'm ENcouraging a critical eye, rather than DIScouraging anything. I'm just not going to let illogic slide if I see it, and I don't think any of us should. The last thing I want to be is the abstract police
It's easy to read a lot into an abstract or paper, especially if we have a position to support. But if I see leaps of logic on this board, I'm going to call people on it, even at the risk of seeming like a killjoy.
My purpose is enhanced knowledge for us all.

 

[DTOX]

Does anyone know if zinc raises free testosterone levels also? I had my blood tested about 6 months ago and my total & free tested. My total was nothing to brag about, but my free was nearly off the scale (it was at the maximum amount for the range given).

I'm an avid ZMA user so I thought that may be a possibility.

 

[40butpumpin]

If I'm not an ass, I sure feel like one. Thank-you for the response, buffdoc.

 

[newpump]

I am not smart enough for this thread. What is the consensus - Zinc BAD at 100+Mg per day but GOOD at 50 to 100 MG per day on cycle??

 

[buffdoc]

If I'm not an ass, I sure feel like one. Thank-you for the response, buffdoc.

No ass-ness detected here! Seriously, the to and fro helps clarify things for a lot of us, me included.

 

[biteme]

so what is just a good amount to take for a healthy well being? I don't believe in over doing anything.

Haha! Having 3000 ng/dl of testosterone is not overdoing it?

 

[biteme]

I wouldn't take that much zinc. I have read several times where certain minerals, especially zinc are toxic in high dosages.

 

[Bozzman]

"Just be wary of saying it's fine to take 200mg per day of zinc; people may NOT take that w/ a grain of salt, and what if they're juicing, perhaps their immune systems are down slightly and then they hit it off w/ large doses of zinc?...., excessive levels can be as bad as deficiency levels."

____________________________________________________

buffdoc, well said! With knowledge comes responsibility. Remember the lay people. All they have to do is hear Zinc raises Test and blocks estogen. They're going to run out, buy a bottle and pop a Zn tablet every 2 hours.

If you can't be unbiased when quoting a study, please post a reference where it can be found.

Bozz

 

[Sigmund Roid]

Am J Clin Nutr 1990 Feb;51(2):225-7 Related Articles, Links


Zinc toxicity.

Fosmire GJ.

Department of Nutrition, College of Health and Human Development, Penn State University, University Park 16802.

Although consequences of zinc deficiency have been recognized for many years, it is only recently that attention has been directed to the potential consequences of excessive zinc intake. This is a review of the literature on manifestations of toxicity at several levels of zinc intake. Zinc is considered to be relatively nontoxic, particularly if taken orally. However, manifestations of overt toxicity symptoms (nausea, vomiting, epigastric pain, lethargy, and fatigue) will occur with extremely high zinc intakes. At low intakes, but at amounts well in excess of the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) (100-300 mg Zn/d vs an RDA of 15 mg Zn/d), evidence of induced copper deficiency with attendant symptoms of anemia and neutropenia, as well as impaired immune function and adverse effects on the ratio of low-density-lipoprotein to high-density-lipoprotein (LDL/HDL) cholesterol have been reported. Even lower levels of zinc supplementation, closer in amount to the RDA, have been suggested to interfere with the utilization of copper and iron and to adversely affect HDL cholesterol concentrations. Individuals using zinc supplements should be aware of the possible complications attendant to their use.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 2407097 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[buffdoc]

Sig,
Nice post. Simple, concise, no wild claims or prophesies of doom, just "here's the info".
Also, note that this is a REVIEW article; in these types of articles, the authors review the literature and summarize what is out there in the valid, peer-reviewed publications. Very useful and valuable type of article. Also, these are referring to HUMAN, clinical studies of in vivo zinc toxicity.
Thanks

Am J Clin Nutr 1990 Feb;51(2):225-7 Related Articles, Links


Zinc toxicity.

Fosmire GJ.

Department of Nutrition, College of Health and Human Development, Penn State University, University Park 16802.

Although consequences of zinc deficiency have been recognized for many years, it is only recently that attention has been directed to the potential consequences of excessive zinc intake. This is a review of the literature on manifestations of toxicity at several levels of zinc intake. Zinc is considered to be relatively nontoxic, particularly if taken orally. However, manifestations of overt toxicity symptoms (nausea, vomiting, epigastric pain, lethargy, and fatigue) will occur with extremely high zinc intakes. At low intakes, but at amounts well in excess of the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) (100-300 mg Zn/d vs an RDA of 15 mg Zn/d), evidence of induced copper deficiency with attendant symptoms of anemia and neutropenia, as well as impaired immune function and adverse effects on the ratio of low-density-lipoprotein to high-density-lipoprotein (LDL/HDL) cholesterol have been reported. Even lower levels of zinc supplementation, closer in amount to the RDA, have been suggested to interfere with the utilization of copper and iron and to adversely affect HDL cholesterol concentrations. Individuals using zinc supplements should be aware of the possible complications attendant to their use.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 2407097 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Nelson Montana]

ZMA is a $30 version of $4 zinc.

When I spoke to Victor Conte (the "inventor" of zma) the studies he sited were a joke. Everyone was either deficient, under tremendous stress (i,e, Navy Seals) or pro bodybuilders post cycle. And the tests were done with normal zinc citrate, not the magical ZMA.

Since that time he and the boys at Biotest have made millions on the sale of ZMA.

I swear, with the right promotion, supplement companies can hype table salt as anabolic -- and people will buy it.

 

[hhajdo]

I am not smart enough for this thread. What is the consensus - Zinc BAD at 100+Mg per day but GOOD at 50 to 100 MG per day on cycle??

Just supplement with 15-30 mg ED regardless of whether you're on cycle or not..
You will not benefit from additional supplementation unless you're deficient in Zn.

http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/zinc.html

 

[DTOX]

ZMA is a $30 version of $4 zinc.

When I spoke to Victor Conte (the "inventor" of zma) the studies he sited were a joke. Everyone was either deficient, under tremendous stress (i,e, Navy Seals) or pro bodybuilders post cycle. And the tests were done with normal zinc citrate, not the magical ZMA.

Since that time he and the boys at Biotest have made millions on the sale of ZMA.

I swear, with the right promotion, supplement companies can hype table salt as anabolic -- and people will buy it.

Oh well.

The only two supplements I've taken that gave me noticable effects are creatine and ZMA. Guess I'm one of those naturally "zinc deficient" people.

 

[bunkka]

ZMA is a $30 version of $4 zinc.

Nelson thanks for reinforcing what I already felt.

I purchased Zinc, Magnesium and B-Complex (the basic compounds of ZMA) in seperate bottles and take the 3 every evening before going to bed. I figure I paid about 14.00 for the same thing as "ZMAss", basically, plus it's about 3 months of product.

 

[bunkka]

I wouldn't take that much zinc. I have read several times where certain minerals, especially zinc are toxic in high dosages.

Hmmm... so is baby asperine.

Moderation is life's key to happiness, IMHO.

 

[gainerxxl]

Just supplement with 15-30 mg ED regardless of whether you're on cycle or not..
You will not benefit from additional supplementation unless you're deficient in Zn.

http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/zinc.html

Sorry bro, you don´t nkow what you´re talking about. I don not reccomend to take 100mg zinc/day year round, but 100mgs daily WILL affect aromatase activity to a great degree, believe it or not.
10 weeks of high dose zinc supplementation will not affect your health, get real! You do test, d-bol, and a bunch of other stuff to fight e-related sides but you reject a natural supplement, that will do the trick just as well.

Sure, KAL produces zinc 100+ to poison all their customers, lol.

 

[Him1]

Gainerxxl:Sure, KAL produces zinc 100+ to poison all their customers, lol.

Dude, you just lost some credibility there, thats just dumb.

Sure, Marlboro produces cigarettes just to poison their customers, lol.

 

[hhajdo]

Sorry bro, you don´t nkow what you´re talking about. I don not reccomend to take 100mg zinc/day year round, but 100mgs daily WILL affect aromatase activity to a great degree, believe it or not.
10 weeks of high dose zinc supplementation will not affect your health, get real! You do test, d-bol, and a bunch of other stuff to fight e-related sides but you reject a natural supplement, that will do the trick just as well.

Sure, KAL produces zinc 100+ to poison all their customers, lol.

Actually, you don't know what are you talking about...
All the studies you posted were performed on Zinc deficient subjects...
KAL sells 15 & 50 mg Zn caps...

 

[shifti]

You all seem to forget most of these studies were done on "average" people. Whats the difference between most of us and normal people? Muscle mass. The more muscle mass you carry, the higher mg dosage your body will require of any substance. I personally dont see why a dosage of 100-150 would be toxic to any of us.