Yohimburn Df on the face, YIKES! Good stuff.

[macrophage69alpha]

better off using just proviron and/or an aromatase inhibitor (serms like nolva tend to act like estrogen in some tissues and fat, at least from some studies, seems to be one of them)

yohimburn DF with a low dose of aromatase inhibitor(with added winny and var drop this as they will naturally suppress estrogen levels- by suppressing test) as well as proviron and perhaps something like winny or anavar would be solid choices in your case (if you want gear as well

 

[Powerhouse_10]

thanks macro, however i am not sure of nolva acting as an estrogen in fat tissues.... i have read studies that nolva releases fat into the bloodstream (so it can be burnt, especially estrogenic fat).

also would 25mg eod of proviron be good to run?

i want to stay natural for this cutting phase so i dont think i will be using var or winny or any other nonaromatisable at the mo.


i was thinking of using creatine during the cut, but since i will be taking the nolva and proviron to reduce bloat (in addition to hardness and fat release) as creatine causes "bloat" doesn't it. i don't know if i could use a creatine that doesnt cause bloat as i think all creatine does....

thanks for any input bros!

 

[macrophage69alpha]

also would 25mg eod of proviron be good to run?

i want to stay natural for this cutting phase so i dont think i will be using var or winny or any other nonaromatisable at the mo.

25mg ED

but proviron is a steroid, so using it kind of negates the "natural" thing.

 

[Powerhouse_10]

i totally agree with you bro, but since its not an "anabolic" (doesn't causes an increase in muscle size or strength...or does it? i am not sure about that yet...) then i am still considering my cut "natural" per se.

i am not sure, but i was thinking of doing alternate days, 25mg of proviron one day, then next day 20mg nolva and so on, as I have read that proviron CAN be suppressive (since its an androgen, but yet again i am still unsure of this..). also i feel this way that estrogen levels won't be "excessively lowered" as some estrogen is needed in the body of course, and that the effects of the 2 won't "compete" with each other.

any input on the above ideas, i would definitly appreciate.

p.s. could i expect a rise in natural testosterone levels, since proviron is an anti-aromatase, and nolva is used in PCT to raise natural test levels.....

 

[macrophage69alpha]

well lets get this nolva issue out of the way first...

Appl Radiat Isot. 1998 May-Jun;49(5-6):643-5. Related Articles, Links


Body composition measurements using DXA and other techniques in tamoxifen-treated patients.

Ali PA, al-Ghorabie FH, Evans CJ, el-Sharkawi AM, Hancock DA.

Department of Medical Physics and Radiotherapy, Singleton Hospital, Swansea, U.K.

Tamoxifen is an anti-oestrogenic drug which is widely used in the treatment of patients with breast cancer. There is increasing interest in using the drug both for benign breast disease and as a chemo-preventative agent of the drug in women at high risk of breast cancer. Despite the fact that the acute side-effects of the drug are few, its agonistic and antagonistic oestrogenic effects are not fully known and may have some undesirable effects for patients treated with the drug for several years. A number of studies carried out recently indicate a varying degree of change in bone mineral content following treatment with tamoxifen. These studies concentrated mainly on bone mineral density measurements only and non of them reported the effects of tamoxifen on lean body mass and fat mass. In this study we measured lean body mass and fat mass in tamoxifen-treated females and a comparison group to determine the difference between the two groups. Twenty-six women receiving tamoxifen (20 mg/d) have participated in this study. The control group comprised 31 healthy women of a similar age. Total body bone mineral (TBBM) was measured using a dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA) (Hologic INV., Waltham, U.S.A.). Similarly, regional and total body soft tissue (lean and fat tissue) were measured using the DXA system. In addition to DXA measurements, percentage body fat (%BF) was measured using total body potassium counting (TBK), skinfold anthropometry (SF), infrared interactance (i.r.) and bioelectric impedance analysis (BIA). Results from DXA alone showed that there were no significant differences between the two groups for TBBM, regional and total body lean tissue mass. However, there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measurement. Similarly there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measured by other body composition techniques. Although there is no other research reported on the effects of tamoxifen on %BF, this retrospective study indicates that tamoxifen may lead to increase in fact content in women who are subjected to this treatment. We conclude that this observation is probably related to the agonistic oestrogenic effect of Tamoxifen on body fat. To our knowledge this deleterious effect has not been reported before and it should be taken into considerable when comprising different types of anti-oestrogenic drugs. Furthermore, patients should be warned about this side-effect when they are prescribed Tamoxifen therapy

 

[macrophage69alpha]

^

 

[Powerhouse_10]

hi bro! sorry for the late reply damn so nolva increases bf %? i have always read differently , let me just find some studies

SOMETHING I CAME ACROSS ON ANOTHER BOARD ....

Nolvadex has estrogenic properties on fat in that it increases lipolisis (fat mobilization). To quote from a couple of studies:

"Tamoxifen, a nonsteroidal antiestrogenic antitumor agent, has weak estrogen-like effects on lipid metabolism, however, the mechanism remains unknown. We previously reported that tamoxifen decreases the activity of lipoprotein lipase (LPL), a key enzyme in triglyceride metabolism, in patients with breast cancer." (1)

"Treatment of ovariectomized rats with the nonsteroidal antiestrogen tamoxifen mimicked the effects of estradiol and caused significant decreases in food intake and body weight. The decreases in body weight were reflected mainly in a decreased body fat content" (2)

So by acting as an estrogen, it increases lipolysis. This means more fatty acids are released into the blood stream to serve as a POTENTIAL fuel source. Does this mean it causes people to lose weight? Not necessarily. There is a perception that the opposite occurs, but studies have shown this not be the case. Tamoxifen has no significant effect on weight. To quote from yet another study:

"The purpose of this research study was to determine if weight gain is associated with tamoxifen therapy and to observe the impact of weight gain on recurrence and survival. Prognostic indicators, changes in weight, and disease status from diagnosis to the end of treatment were studied in 200 consecutive Stage I and II breast cancer patients, not receiving systemic chemotherapy, admitted from 1986 to the present, with observation periods ranging from 3-5 years. A mean weight gain of 1.2 Kgs was seen in all patients; however, weight gain was not significantly different for those receiving tamoxifen vs. those not receiving tamoxifen, (P = 0.66, CI 95% for the difference -1.8 Kgs to +1.2 Kgs)." (3)

It is interesting to speculate why if nolvadex increases lipolysis it does not lead to weight loss. One possibility is that the subjects, cancer patients, aren't exercising to take advantage of the mobilized fat. The other possibility is that since nolvadex lowers GH and IGF-1, a reduction in those hormones blunts any potential weight loss.

The fact that Nolvadex increases lipolysis so much is actually a serious problem. The blood stream is flooded with fatty acids that can cause hyperlipidemia. This can cause cardiovascular problems, pancreatitis, fatty liver, and a general accumulation of fat around the organs.

This suggests to me that if you intend to use nolvadex you should have a low fat, high fiber diet to lower the blood lipids, and get plenty of exercise to burn all the fat the nolvadex has mobilized for you. I agree with Dan Duchaine that nolva CAN cause fat loss if you take full advantage of its potential.



(1) Horm Res 2000;53(1):36-9
Tamoxifen inhibits lipoprotein activity: in vivo and in vitro studies.
Hozumi Y, Kawano M, Hakamata Y, Miyata M, Jordan VC.

(2) Am J Physiol 1993 Jun;264(6 Pt 2):R1219-
Tamoxifen mimics the effects of estradiol on food intake, body weight, and body composition in rats.
Wade GN, Heller HW.

(3) Breast Cancer Res Treat 1997 Jun;44(2):135-
Weight gain associated with adjuvant tamoxifen therapy in stage I and II breast cancer: fact or artifact?
Kumar NB, Allen K, Cantor A, Cox CE, Greenberg H, Shah S, Lyman GH.


i am not sure what to understand now.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

in rats that it the case. In HUMANS, it is not.

all the long term studies with tamox, show fat gain. Albeit all those studies are done in women.

there may be conflicting individual reports as receptor binding and activity may vary due to genetic variance in receptor density and isoforms (basically it may cause fat loss in some individuals)


aromatase inhibition is a more certain path.

 

[Powerhouse_10]

damn, sorry i didnt see it like that, u made a VERY good point bro, its in rats not humans.

so i guess i should stick with proviron (as u already know my situation from the above posts)....

thanks very much for ur input bro

peace

 

[LANCEA9847]

best thread ever!