Yohimbine delivery

[Buld0g]

BTW, as long as we are posting links to commercial sites. Here is a product with 6 grams of Yohimbine HCl, already in gel form, with a delivery vehicle that will actual localize delivery of the yohimbine to the fat tissue rather than having it taken up by the dermal microvascualture and delivered systemically before it ever gets there as will happen with the formulations being expounded on this board -- all for only $79.99

I've been seeing a lot more topical products that contian Yohimbine HCL now. I guess others are catching on to it.

 

[Mr.Zone]

Ok...so are we saying that taking it oraly is better for fat loss.

 

[Par Deus]

I am saying it is as good or better than the use of Yohimburn and other poorly formulated topicals, assuming several doses throughout the day.

I am not saying it is as good as a properly formulated topical.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Well PAR DEUS.. you can say that it is less effective... but you would be wrong. Seeing as that you only really understand the properties of the ingredients you have chosen.

You fail to realize that aloe vera ALONE is an excellent carrier and penetration enhancer.


You can also say that lipoderm is effective, but then again you cannot prove it.. you can point to a study that used a different chemical...


ORAL YOHIMBINE/ YOHIMBE DOES NOT PRODUCE NEAR THE RESULTS OF YOHIMBURN or even for that matter yohimbine hcl mixed with aspercreme and aloe vera.

I must admit...I have only conversed with 3 people that have used lipoderm... 2 said that it was too caustic and quit using it, though 1 did say that got decent results (that same person said that both the asper/aloe and the yohimburn produced similiar results and were less caustic)

BTW- LIPOBURN is a VERY low quality product.. I really dont think you want to compare yours to it..

 

[Par Deus]

Macro,

I have posted data showing the efficacy of every ingredient in LipoDerm in carrying out its particular purpose.

Feel free to post references to studies showing aloe to be an excellent penetration enhancer as well as a suitable carrier for local delivery of fat loss products. I would define "excellent" as a PE as a 100 fold increase in the PE ratio of a hydrophilic compound (all of ours show this, with some showing 1000 fold increase), "suitable" as a carrier would be data suggesting it facilitates the avoidance of uptake by the dermal microvasculature.

Also, I do not just say LipoDerm is effective, I show a great deal of legitimate scientific data showing that it should be. I also have presented data showing why Yohimburn should not be. HUGE difference.

As for Lipoburn, I was merely referring to the penetration enhancers they list as ingredients -- there is very good data on them.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Actually you have posted NO scientific Studies to show why yohimburn should NOT be effective. You did post information saying why it WOULD BE EFFECTIVE.

In your informative article , which was actually quite interesting you mentioned that the TERPENE L-MENTHOL increased PE 1000 fold for morphine hcl- log p.74 compared to yohimbine log p.75.

Peppermint oil is 90% L- MENTHOL

The YOHIMBURN formulation also uses Glycerin which you reccomend in your and is in your product.

While you dont reccomend ALOE- though you might want to look at the USPTO- you will find some interesting info..

btw- MANY PENETRATION ENHANCERS ARE VERY CAUSTIC.. which would explain why 2 of the three people I know who have used lipoderm discontinued it.

 

[Par Deus]

Actually you have posted NO scientific Studies to show why yohimburn should NOT be effective.

Quite the contrary:

1. Roberts MS. Targeted drug delivery to the skin and deeper tissues: role of physiology, solute structure and disease.Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol 1997 Nov;24(11):874-9

2. Singh P, Roberts MS. Skin permeability and local tissue concentrations of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs after topical application. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 1994 Jan;268(1):144-51

3. Singh P, Roberts MS Dermal and underlying tissue pharmacokinetics of lidocaine after topical application. J Pharm Sci 1994 Jun;83(6):774-82

 

[Par Deus]

As for the claim that LipoDerm is caustic, I find it strange that not a single person has e-mailed my company in this regard -- and when I offered a refund to the one person who posted something on this board in that regard, I was not taken up on it.

 

[Par Deus]

Not to mention that the literature suggests the penetration enhancers employed are quite non-irritating in the concentrations found in our product.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

You post three cites which MEAN NOTHING- they are just cites and contain no relevant information... did you even read my post?

L-MENTHOL comprises 90% of PEPPERMINT OIL

 

[Par Deus]

They are in regards to dermal uptake, which is the paramount issue with a topical yohimbine product.

They are references, go look up the papers yourself. That is how it works.

Or, again, e-mail me a fax number and I will send the full papers to you.

I am done for the evening, so I will have to continue my end of this tomorrow.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

I know that they are in regards to DERMAL UPTAKE.


HOWEVER, you said that they prove that yohimburn is poorly designed-- THOUGH ACTUALLY THEY SAY NOTHING OF THE SORT.




I am sorry that you designed a product based soley on the fact that you could patent it.. that is the real reason for the targeted delivery vehicle- you cant really patent what the other ingredients on your site... but EITHER it DOES NOT WORK WITH YOHIMBINE or YOU DONT PUT ENOUGH IN TO BE EFFECTIVE..(which would be caustic) for otherwise due to the nature of yohimbine you would get high levels of systemic release.

 

[Par Deus]

I know that they are in regards to DERMAL UPTAKE.


HOWEVER, you said that they prove that yohimburn is poorly designed-- THOUGH ACTUALLY THEY SAY NOTHING OF THE SORT.


I am sorry that you designed a product based soley on the fact that you could patent it.. that is the real reason for the targeted delivery vehicle- you cant really patent what the other ingredients on your site... but EITHER it DOES NOT WORK WITH YOHIMBINE or YOU DONT PUT ENOUGH IN TO BE EFFECTIVE..(which would be caustic) for otherwise due to the nature of yohimbine you would get high levels of systemic release.

Do you expect the papers to specifically state "Yohimburn is poorly designed"??? They are quite clear about the fact that typical transdermal delivery results in thorough uptake of the active ingredient before it ever gets to adipose tissue. I am not sure what you are missing here.

I certainly did not design my product solely based on the ability to patent it. I will say it again, though you seem incapable of grasping it -- typical transdermal delivery results in thorough uptake of the active ingredient before it ever gets to adipose tissue -- after exhaustive research of the literature, I discovered that there was only one compound that has been shown to significantly avoid this dermal uptake -- and that is what I based the design of my product on. It was out for 6-8 months before I decided to apply for a patent on it.

As for the nature of yohimbine and systemic distribution, I certainly think it will increase systemic uptake compared to the studies, but I think it will be fairly insignificant for two reasons 1) the use of a vasoconstrictor did not DECREASE uptake a great deal (it was quite significant (3-4X)for the first couple of mm, but by 6mm deep, there was no difference -- considering that uptake in these first couple mm is already VERY high (probably 99.9%) without the use of the special carrier, vasodilation in this area probably is not going to make a huge difference -- the blood supply is already very adequate, which bring us to 2) It is only the adipose tissue that has real issues with blood flow, the blood flow to muscle is MUCH higher than you would get in the adipose tissue, even with a vasodilator, and in the study with the special carrier, concentrations were still 1/3 as high in the joint capsule as they were in the muscle, so uptake from the vasculature in the muscle was still far from complete, and it would be significantly less so in the adipose tissue -- even with vasodilation.

Also, you need to distinguish the difference between a penetration enhancer and a delivery vehicle. Your "caustic" comment suggests that you are not.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

A delivery vehicle that is not in use by any other companies.... or at least so it would appear and one that works for NSAIDS- not one that has been tested on YOHIMBINE.


THE LITERATURE IS NOT CLEAR.

There are several studies showing that hydration of the stratum corneum and the use of multiple carriers/penetration enhancers have a GREAT effect on penetration. Please post a copy of the three cites, as you do not post the body you can say that they mean anything you like.

 

[Buld0g]

Par Deus ... I was under the impression that you were stating that ANY yohimbine HCL topical product is no good. Now it sems like your saying that your product works better. So are you saying that if a yohimbine hcl product is formulated with that right carriers, it can be effective?

 

[Everlast]

All I know is that Yohimburn is working for me!!!! Par Deus send me a free sample of your stuff since you are so confident in it, and I will compare the 2. Macro, as far as the scientific bs I am a dumbass but one thing for sure, the shit works!!!!! My fatty deposits behind my nipples and on my lower chest are leaving!!!! my nips are not puffy anymore. I feeling more confident about my chest!

 

[Ulter]

I won't get into the argument of the best delivery system. Par Deus is using a solution that is used for antibiotics/anti-fungals and NSAIDS. Yohimburns uses a solution that is used for Yohimbine hcl. So if I need an antibiotics/anti-fungals or NSAIDS product and want to apply it topically I will try his. If I want to use Yohimbine hcl I will use Yohimburn. I would like to know though about the key ingredient used to make both these products. I know that the yohimbine hcl that is used in Yohimburn is formulated and manufactured in the USA with USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl. What kind of yohimbine hcl is used by Par Deus?
I ask this because a few days ago I got an email from someone who wants to sell MP technologies Yohimbine hcl from India. It went like this...
Ulter,

I have almost a kilo of Yohimbine HCL from India. It is 99% pure. I'm wondering if you or Anabolicfitness.net would be interested in some for $12 a gram?

Let me know,

XXX

I blanked out the name.
I sent him this answer inferring a question.
XXX,

It would have to be USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl.


Ulter

He didn't reply. I know why he didn't reply and that's fine. There is nothing bad about XXX making this offer so if you are reading this don't take offence to my posting your email.
He is offering to lower our cost of raw materials by offering an inferior grade of yohimbine hcl. We won't do that. We will not compromise the integrity of our product to make a few more dollars.
So I am asking Par Deus Where do you get your Yohimbine hcl?
Be careful, I don’t ask a question unless I know the answer.


WWW.ANABOLICFITNESS.NET

 

[Everlast]

Please answer the question Par Deus! For the sake of your product! Jaycutlerisfat said your product sux ass. I personally know that Yohimburn works! Send me a free sample I will try it out and decide which is superior!

 

[Par Deus]

____________________________________________________
A delivery vehicle that is not in use by any other companies.... or at least so it would appear and one that works for NSAIDS- not one that has been tested on YOHIMBINE.


THE LITERATURE IS NOT CLEAR.
___________________________________________________


You do like to twist things, don't you. I stated that the literature was quite clear that the vehicle used for Yohimburn will be ineffective -- and it is indeed quite clear on this matter.

As for the efficacy of the carrier in our product in regards to yohimbine, it is less clear. However, it certainly suggests that it would be effective -- i have given my argument as to why yohimbine vs. an NSAID should not make a huge difference two different times, so I will not repeat it. You are more than welocome to actually argue against it rather than stating the same silliness over and over, if you feel yourself capable.


____________________________________________________
There are several studies showing that hydration of the stratum corneum and the use of multiple carriers/penetration enhancers have a GREAT effect on penetration.
___________________________________________________


Again, as I have said repeatedly, the penetration enhancers in Yohimburn are not its downfall -- I consider them adequate.


___________________________________________________

Please post a copy of the three cites, as you do not post the body you can say that they mean anything you like.
____________________________________________________

The important information is contained in the paper, not the abstract -- i am not going to type the whole thing. I gave the reference and have offered to fax the paper -- I have more than fullfilled my obligation on this matter.

 

[Par Deus]

_________________________________________________
I won't get into the argument of the best delivery system. Par Deus is using a solution that is used for antibiotics/anti-fungals and NSAIDS. Yohimburns uses a solution that is used for Yohimbine hcl.
__________________________________________________



What do you mean by "used for Yohimbine HCl". Do you mean it has been shown, in the literature, to be effective in delivering yohimbine to fat tissue??

I thought not.

That leaves to possibilities. 1) You are profoundly stupid, or 2) You are purposefully trying to be misleading. Our product is not designed for NSDAIDS. Every single penetration enhancer is designed for the delivery of hydrophillic compounds, which NSAIDS are NOT. Yes, the research on the carrier is with NSAIDS and anti-biotics, but that hardly equates to our product being designed for their delivery -- I have stated on numerous occassions why the vehicle should also be effective for yohimbine.


________________________________________________
I would like to know though about the key ingredient used to make both these products. I know that the yohimbine hcl that is used in Yohimburn is formulated and manufactured in the USA with USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl.
_________________________________________________


Oh Lord, I don't really even know what to say. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "USA GRADE" anything. Real grades include USP, FCC, Reagent. That is a marketing ploy by yourself or your supplier. It is non-sensical. You really need to go run along and play and leave the debate to macro and I. He is at least moderately clever in trying to deceive the members of this board -- you are showing yourself a fool without my help.



__________________________________________________
I have almost a kilo of Yohimbine HCL from India. It is 99% pure. I'm wondering if you or Anabolicfitness.net would be interested in some for $12 a gram?
__________________________________________________-


If you really are paying MORE than 12 bucks a gram, I am laughing my ass off. This certainly answers the question about the origins of the "USA Grade" ploy.



___________________________________________________
It would have to be USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl.


Ulter

He didn't reply.
_________________________________________________


Yeah, no shit. It is because there is no such thing.


___________________________________________________
So I am asking Par Deus Where do you get your Yohimbine hcl?
Be careful, I don’t ask a question unless I know the answer.
____________________________________________________


Yeah, I would hope you would know the answer because I have stated it 3 times in the last 12 hours on this very board.

We get it from ChemPhar International, Inc. in New Jersey, who gets it from India, and has every batch assayed at an independent lab. It assays out at 99%+ purity. So, like I said, unless you are a racists or into buying American, the country of its manufacture is not relevant.

BTW, if you would like to publicly question the integrity of ChamPhar International, feel free to do so, as I am quite certain that they have better lawyers than we do.

 

[Par Deus]

Par Deus ... I was under the impression that you were stating that ANY yohimbine HCL topical product is no good. Now it sems like your saying that your product works better. So are you saying that if a yohimbine hcl product is formulated with that right carriers, it can be effective?

I was not even originally stating that Yohimburn is no good -- just that it is no better than oral usage.

And, yes, I am indeed stating that a well-formulated topical can be effective.

For a detailed explanation of the science, read the article I wrote on the subject -- this is an informative version that originally appeared in Anabolic Extreme -- it is not the advertising version:

http://www.avantlabs.com/topical_fat_loss.htm

 

[macrophage69alpha]

_


________________________________________________
I would like to know though about the key ingredient used to make both these products. I know that the yohimbine hcl that is used in Yohimburn is formulated and manufactured in the USA with USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl.
_________________________________________________


Oh Lord, I don't really even know what to say. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "USA GRADE" anything. Real grades include USP, FCC, Reagent. That is a marketing ploy by yourself or your supplier. It is non-sensical. You really need to go run along and play and leave the debate to macro and I. He is at least moderately clever in trying to deceive the members of this board -- you are showing yourself a fool without my help.

well Par deus, What ulter said is technically correct. The grades are designed by the United States Pharmacopeia- USP24 NF19- is the standard that must be met for use in pharmaceutical products. It is a "USA grade or National Formulary" though it is used as an international system of designation of quality. IT IS A MINIMUM PURITY STANDARD OF 99.5%. There are other qualifications... but this is the important one.

this is NOT that important to some, but for those demanding the highest purity...well.... chemicals that meet or exceed USP24 should be used

 

[macrophage69alpha]

_________________________________________________
I won't get into the argument of the best delivery system. Par Deus is using a solution that is used for antibiotics/anti-fungals and NSAIDS. Yohimburns uses a solution that is used for Yohimbine hcl.
__________________________________________________



What do you mean by "used for Yohimbine HCl". Do you mean it has been shown, in the literature, to be effective in delivering yohimbine to fat tissue??

I thought not.

That leaves to possibilities. 1) You are profoundly stupid, or 2) You are purposefully trying to be misleading. Our product is not designed for NSDAIDS. Every single penetration enhancer is designed for the delivery of hydrophillic compounds, which NSAIDS are NOT. Yes, the research on the carrier is with NSAIDS and anti-biotics, but that hardly equates to our product being designed for their delivery -- I have stated on numerous occassions why the vehicle should also be effective for yohimbine.

The targeted delivery solution WAS designed for use with NSAIDS and anitbiotics(btw- it is not even clear that it works with them because of their nature). You present NO scientific evidence that it will even work with yohimbine. You present a theory that it will but then fail to back it up. The method of action of yohimbine is VERY different from the chemicals that were used.

LETS SEE.. you used studies that used 2 antibiotics and 1 NSAID... and how exactly do they apply to yohimbine????

For instance Griseofulvin, the only chemical of similar wieght to yohimbine, tends to be highly deposited in the skin EVEN WITH ORAL DOSING... How does this prove targeted delivery with this chemical any local topical delivery will result in local uptake.

"Griseofulvin is deposited in varying concentrations in the keratin layer of the skin, hair, and nails. It can be detected in the stratum corneum of the skin within a few hours following administration. Only a very small fraction of an oral dose is distributed in the body fluids and tissues"


Par deus,

You dont prove anything. You post a lot of theories backed up BY A LITTLE SCIENCE, science that is of questionable application.


Yohimburn, on the other hand, is based on some science AND A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE AND EXPERIMENTATION.

It is based on science and the feedback and experiences of others with aloe, menthol/aspercreme and other various methods that HAVE BEEN TRIED IN THE REAL WORLD and have come out as very effective... MANY of these people had powder(it has been widely available for years), they had the option and opportunity to use it orally- but they found it not very effective- as the studies have.. HOWEVER with topical use with the aforementioned carriers and penetration enhancers they have gotten superior results. THIS IS WHAT YOHIMBURN IS BASED UPON... and future versions will continue to be based upon.

 

[Par Deus]

___________________________________________________
The targeted delivery solution WAS designed for use with NSAIDS and anitbiotics(btw- it is not even clear that it works with them because of their nature).
___________________________________________________



It is quite clear it works. You really need to get the full papers. It is quite clear.


_________________________________________________
You present NO scientific evidence that it will even work with yohimbine. You present a theory that it will but then fail to back it up. The method of action of yohimbine is VERY different from the chemicals that were used.
___________________________________________________


And, I have addressed this difference on multiple occassions. You have made no attempt to debunk what I have said in that regard. You just keep making statements with no support about issues i have already argues against.



__________________________________________________
LETS SEE.. you used studies that used 2 antibiotics and 1 NSAID... and how exactly do they apply to yohimbine????
_________________________________________________


The same way they apply to each other. If one of these substances would have shown the deliver vehicle not to work, you would have a point, however, it works wonderfully with three different chemicals.

I have already addressed the issue of why their major physiological difference is a non-issue.



__________________________________________________
For instance Griseofulvin, the only chemical of similar wieght to yohimbine, tends to be highly deposited in the skin EVEN WITH ORAL DOSING...
___________________________________________________


But, this is AFTER it goes systemic. Nonetheless, the concentrations are still significantly higher with topical use, employing the deliver vehicle.




__________________________________________________
You dont prove anything. You post a lot of theories backed up BY A LITTLE SCIENCE, science that is of questionable application.
____________________________________________________


You are quite correct. Scientists do not attempt to prove things. They only disprove them.

As to the science, you say there is little and that the applicatiuon is questionable, but you have been unable to be remotely sucessful in arguing against it -- not to mentione that it is much, much better for our product than with yohimburn.



____________________________________________________
Yohimburn, on the other hand, is based on some science AND A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE AND EXPERIMENTATION.
___________________________________________________


All without controls or statistical analysis. When, the legitamite literature goes against you, this is of very little real value.

For, instance, how many of your experimental subjects have also used oral yohimbine, in the doses suggested to be efficacious by the literature, along with a similar diet and exercise program??


___________________________________________________
It is based on science and the feedback and experiences of others with aloe, menthol/aspercreme and other various methods that HAVE BEEN TRIED IN THE REAL WORLD and have come out as very effective...
_________________________________________________


And, every bit of feedback I have received on my product has been good, with the exception of the person who claimed it was caustic on a public board that promotes another product (at that time it was just the bulk powder, not Yohimburn, Cutting Gel was also being promoted pretty heavily at that period), and when I offered this person a refund, I never heard from them. I think that strange for an $80 product.

So, my product has also been utilized, successfully, in THE REAL WORLD to go along with the science that supports the likelihood of its efficacy.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

___________________________________________________
The targeted delivery solution WAS designed for use with NSAIDS and anitbiotics(btw- it is not even clear that it works with them because of their nature).
___________________________________________________



It is quite clear it works. You really need to get the full papers. It is quite clear.

It is not clear, it is clear that it was better than the control... which was a VERY POOR CARRIER-- what does that prove?

Also you GIVE no basis for why it will work for yohimbine.. you repeatedly state that you have but you HAVE NOT.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

___


__________________________________________________
LETS SEE.. you used studies that used 2 antibiotics and 1 NSAID... and how exactly do they apply to yohimbine????
_________________________________________________


The same way they apply to each other. If one of these substances would have shown the deliver vehicle not to work, you would have a point, however, it works wonderfully with three different chemicals.

I have already addressed the issue of why their major physiological difference is a non-issue.



__________________________________________________
For instance Griseofulvin, the only chemical of similar wieght to yohimbine, tends to be highly deposited in the skin EVEN WITH ORAL DOSING...
___________________________________________________


But, this is AFTER it goes systemic. Nonetheless, the concentrations are still significantly higher with topical use, employing the deliver vehicle.

Once again you misconstrue the findings of a poorly designed study.. ANY decent carrier will be better than propylene glycol.

Your claims with respect to griseofulvin are ludicrous. It is delivered there- it does not stray because of its nature. That is not targeted delivery.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

___________________________________________________
It is based on science and the feedback and experiences of others with aloe, menthol/aspercreme and other various methods that HAVE BEEN TRIED IN THE REAL WORLD and have come out as very effective...
_________________________________________________


And, every bit of feedback I have received on my product has been good, with the exception of the person who claimed it was caustic on a public board that promotes another product (at that time it was just the bulk powder, not Yohimburn, Cutting Gel was also being promoted pretty heavily at that period), and when I offered this person a refund, I never heard from them. I think that strange for an $80 product.

So, my product has also been utilized, successfully, in THE REAL WORLD to go along with the science that supports the likelihood of its efficacy.

Par DEUS,

I have searched the boards, on AE I did find 1 or 2 people that like lipoderm- a site that published your article- but that is it. You must have a lot of E mail. I am not saying that lipoderm does not work, though I will say without hesitation that , IMHO, Yohimburn uses higher quality ingredients in a superior formulation- A FORMULATION THAT WAS DEVELOPED BASED ON REAL WORLD DATA AS WELL AS SCIENCE.

btw- your insinuation that that "the board" conspired against you and made up the caustic story is just nonsense. Strong penetration enhancers- effective or not... tend to be caustic.

btw2- I believe that the person was not one who used it but a friend of a female that had, I really dont remember... I have recieved other E mails- though as I said only a couple saying that it was caustic. I have not tried it so I cannot say with certainty one way or another

 

[Ulter]

Par Deus I asked you if used USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl in your product. Your answer is there is no such thing. Well now we all know there is. I won’t call you stupid, just uninformed. You choose to use a cheaper form of Yohimbine from India and then laugh because others are spending the money to use a finer grade for their product. I couldn't say anything about you, or to you, that says more about what you sell and what little integrity you place on what you sell than that statement of yours. If you are going to scoff at your competitors for spending more for higher quality ingredients and do it a public forum then you have no business calling anyone stupid.

I have stated on numerous occassions why the vehicle should also be effective for yohimbine.

Should? You have a patent. You have been selling this product for over a year. You mean to tell me you don't know if the vehicle you are using is effective with Yohimbine. If you don't know if your product is effective or not then why don’t you run along and come back when you’re sure.

WWW.ANABOLICFITNESS.NET

 

[Par Deus]

well Par deus, What ulter said is technically correct. The grades are designed by the United States Pharmacopeia-

This is a real grade. Ours is USP as well, BTW.