Winny & Finasteride (Propescia)

[e-man2]

I am on a Wiiny cycle with Deca. I started Propescia 1 month ago. I have used Winny before without any real noticable hair loss.

Does anyone know how the 2 will react together, i.e. will propescia prevent hair loss from Winny?
Also how does Winny cause hair loss since it is a derivative of DHT, i.e. does it convert back to DHT?

Any help is appreciated
Peace

 

[maxes21]

ok e-man this is where u need to stop either the deca or the propecia,and do some research on deca. ive read some of your other post and see that u have done a deca cycle in the past, before starting that cycle you should have known that deca and finasteride r a bad combo, youll loose your hair quicker with these 2 compounds than probably anything else in this world. lol i think.

do some more research on deca bro, have a good day.

 

[The Bigfella]

Finasteride/propecia prevent the conversion of the steroid at the 5-alpha reductase enzyme, this is the conversion that yields DHT from Test which is a more potent androgen and is worth preventing. The reason it is not of any use for Deca is Deca actually undergoes a conversion to a milder androgen through 5-ar (di-hydronandrolone) and preventing this conversion leaves a stronger androgen in its administered state, it is not as strong as Test and there is nothing sinister about it, just nandrolone.

Propecia etc are only of any use with Test products, and Winny among others, does not undergo a conversion via 5-ar.
I also suggest that it is not as harsh on the hair as often quoted, it has a very low affinity for the AR in both muscle tissue and of the scalp, the fact it is a DHT derivative is of little importance IMO as most steroids are derivatives of Test but have many differing properties............

Hope this helps bro

Bigfella.

 

[e-man2]

Propescia with Deca/Winny

I am a little confused as far as how Propescia interacts with Winny/Deca.
From what Bigfella said below, there is little impact of the 3 used together.

I have some questions which I am hoping someone can answer:

1-How does Winny cause hair loss?
2-Does Deca interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?
3-Does Winny interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?

I just want to better understand because there has been a lot of discussion on it but no real answer.

Can someone with extensive knowledge or experience please help

Thanks
Peace

PS.
Anabolics 2002 never states NOT to use Propescia with Deca. If it is that harsh when used together then why wouldn't they mention it??

 

[buffdoc]

Re: Propescia with Deca/Winny

I am a little confused as far as how Propescia interacts with Winny/Deca.
From what Bigfella said below, there is little impact of the 3 used together.

I have some questions which I am hoping someone can answer:

1-How does Winny cause hair loss?
2-Does Deca interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?
3-Does Winny interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?

I just want to better understand because there has been a lot of discussion on it but no real answer.

Can someone with extensive knowledge or experience please help

Thanks
Peace

These are good questions; I've seen the subject bandied about but never a real cogent explanation that I could understand, especially #2: why nandrolone, when unconverted by 5AR, was supposedly such a wicked influence on the hair.
I say this at the risk of appearing dumb; I'm a doc and a hair loss "expert", but if anyone can answer these specifically and without just quoting hearsay, I'd appreciate it.

 

[The Bigfella]

Deca is harsher on the hair than its reduced version as nandrolone is a more potent androgen than di-hydronandrolone, therefore preventing this conversion by dosing finasteride etc is counterproductive to your goal.
Finasteride has NO effect on stanozolol at all.

Bigfella.

 

[humanoid]

Is there anything that can effectively prevent hairloss from winny?

I'm very curious as I'm currently on a cycle of test enanthate, dbol, eq....and starting at week 7, winny. Currently I'm using Propecia, Minoxidil 2%, and Nizoral 2%. I'm 2 weeks in.....so far, so good. But I'm very concerned about starting the winny.

 

[e-man2]

BUMP

C Is there anyone that can answer my 3 questions with certainty and provide the facts?

Awaiting the GURUS...

 

[buffdoc]

Deca is harsher on the hair than its reduced version as nandrolone is a more potent androgen than di-hydronandrolone, therefore preventing this conversion by dosing finasteride etc is counterproductive to your goal.
Finasteride has NO effect on stanozolol at all.

Bigfella.

Testosterone is a potent androgen, too, but it's not felt to be a big player in hair loss itself.
Question: is nandrolone itself associated with hair loss? I've heard the explanation above, and found it inadequate.

 

[The Bigfella]

Testosterone is a potent androgen, too, but it's not felt to be a big player in hair loss itself.
Question: is nandrolone itself associated with hair loss? I've heard the explanation above, and found it inadequate.

I'm very sorry bro, maybe my post count is too low for you to comprehend? LOL

Testosterone not a major factor in hairloss? Where do you suggest that DHT comes from?

Taken from Peter Van Mol

Nandrolone is more commonly known as the base steroid 19Nor-testosterone. As this structure would indicate its like testosterone in appearance but for one small change : the absence of a carbon atom in the 19th position. This gives it a number of very distinct features. First of all it makes nandrolone a notably weaker agonist of the androgen receptor. That alone causes quite a reduction in the risk of androgenic side-effects. This is because it is the only steroid that is affected by the 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) enzyme in a way that makes it even less androgenic. Unlike testosterone which forms DHT (dihydrotestosterone) at the 5AR enzyme, a hormone 3-4 times as potent as an androgen receptor stimulator, nandrolone forms DHN (dihydronandrolone) a hormone that is even less suited than the already mild parent hormone for agonizing the androgen receptor. Those two features combined make nandrolone a very safe bet for people at risk for prostate hypertrophy, acne and aggravated male pattern hair loss.

Or Bill Roberts same subject

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/deca-durabolin.htm

Bigfella

 

[buffdoc]

Bigfella
Your explanation is fine, such as it is, it just doesn't answer my question. Either I'm not seeing your point, or your not seeing mine; who knows?
OK: I know testosterone forms DHT (duh!), which is bad on the hair. What I meant was that testosterone, the precursor, IN AND OF ITSELF is not a big factor in MPB. So if, as your Peter Van Mol quote says, nandrolones's structure renders it a significantly WEAKER androgen than testosterone, then how is it going to effect hair loss one way or the other, regardless of whether nandrolone is converted to an even WEAKER androgen, such as DHN, or whether it stays as nandrolone (in the presence of 5 AR inhibition with finasteride or dutasteride)? Can you show me how nandrolone, although a weaker androgen than test, still is so bad-ass on the hairline? THIS is the question I've been (unsucessfully so far) trying to get an answer to.
I understand about precursor molecules and their enzymatic transformation. BTW, Bill Robert's explanation doesn't cut it either. In fact, (http://www.mesomorphosis.com/faq/na...kely-to-cause-hair-loss-than-testosterone.htm)
HE says that nandrolone itself is a 5AR inhibitor, and that the presence of nandrolone (NOT DHN) means there will be less DHT in the scalp. Therefore less effect on the hair.
Does this make the nature of my question clearer? Or, have I perhaps answered it my self? If so, finasteride with Deca should be fine.

 

[buffdoc]

^^^^

 

[e-man2]

Deca & Finasteride

I agree with Buffdoc that Deca & Finasteride combo is safe for hair loss. All the information provided by both Buffdoc and Bigfella indicates the same thing, i.e. Deac with Propescia has no influence on each other. The only question is does Finasteride prevent Nandrolone converting to DHN and what impact is there if any?.

Since we have the above mostly addressed, can someone kindly answer the other 2 questions:

1- How does Winny & Finaplix cause hair loss?
2-How does Winny & Finaplix interact with Finastaeride, i.e. better or worse or no influence ?

I thank everyone for their patience, but getting these questions answered is important to me.

Peace

 

[e-man2]

Deca & Finasteride

I agree with Buffdoc that Deca & Finasteride combo is safe for hair loss. All the information provided by both Buffdoc and Bigfella indicates the same thing, i.e. Deac with Propescia has no influence on each other. The only question is does Finasteride prevent Nandrolone converting to DHN and what impact is there if any?.

Since we have the above mostly addressed, can someone kindly answer the other 2 questions:

1- How does Winny & Finaplix cause hair loss?
2-How does Winny & Finaplix interact with Finastaeride, i.e. better or worse or no influence ?

I thank everyone for their patience, but getting these questions answered is important to me.

Peace

 

[Nutrient-Nut]

Deca & Propecia -- no no!

By Brock Strasser:

Deca and Propecia Don't Mix

I use one milligram of Propecia a day to keep my hair. I've heard that I shouldn't use it while on Deca. Where do you stand on the issue?

I'm in 100% agreement. If you use Deca, you shouldn't use Propecia. Here's why. Propecia is a 5-a-reductase inhibitor. It prevents testosterone from becoming DHT. Compared to testosterone, DHT is more androgenic and tougher on the hairline. Deca is 5-a-reduced to DHN (dihydronandrolone). DHN is less androgenic than nandrolone. You'd want this to happen to save the hairline or minimize the androgenic insult to it. Propecia would prevent this from happening.

In conclusion, Propecia and Deca are like a fat woman and tequila—put the two together, and you'll be sorry in the morning.

 

[Qrios]

"1-How does Winny cause hair loss?"
Throug non-ar effects i think

"2-Does Deca interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?"
Yes
Endokrinologie 1982 Oct;80(2):163-72 Related Articles, Links


Different binding of testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives to the androgen receptor of the rat seminal vesicle: a step toward the understanding of the anabolic action of nortesterone.

Toth M, Zakar T.

Binding to the androgen receptor of rat seminal vesicle was studied in vitro using cell-free extract or minced tissue. Relative binding affinities of 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), 5 alpha-dihydro-19-nortestosterone (DHN), nortestosterone and testosterone were estimated from their competition with [3H]-DHT for the binding sites. In contrast with the conflicting results obtained with cell-free systems incubated at 0-15 degrees C, studies performed with vesicular mince at 37 degrees C proved to be useful to demonstrate characteristic differences in binding affinity and to gain information about binding both to cytosol and nuclear receptors. Competition data were graphically analyzed, and after correction for steroid metabolism the following relative competition indices were obtained: DHT = 1.00; nortestosterone = 0.32-0.4; testosterone = 0.1-0.2; DHN = 0.12. However, binding to cytosolic and nuclear receptors did not differ significantly. It is concluded that testosterone and 19-nortestosterone (which are equally good substrates for 5 alpha-reductase) are converted in the seminal vesicles to metabolites, of which DHT exhibits an affinity to the androgen receptor nearly one order of magnitude higher than that of DHN. On the other hand, in skeletal muscles that are practically devoid of 5 alpha-reductase activity, the 3-fold higher affinity of nortestosterone to the receptor, expectedly, results in a myotropic activity that is superior to that of testosterone.

PMID: 7160340 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

"3-Does Winny interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why? "
No

I'm sure someone will disagree there is non AR effects.

 

[e-man2]

Board Divided

I think the board is divided on this Deca/Propescia issue.

Question:
Has anyone ever experienced increased hair loss while on a Deca Finasteride (Propescia) cycle?

I mean seriously, the only eveidence here why Deca with Propescia would be harsh on the hairline is because of the conversion to DHN. But, Nandrolone is less androgenic then Test. and test itself without converting to DHT is not of impact to the hair line???

Also, why does Roberts not mention that in his book if it's true??

What about the other questions?

Where are the hair gurus when you need them??

 

[The Bigfella]

Test does play a factor with hairloss bro as will any androgen binding steroid, although they have varying degrees of effect.
Test is still a potent AR binding hormone and will accelerate pre-existing androgenic alopecia, but not to the extent of the very androgenic DHT.
Fina aggravates through the same manner, aggressive AR binding and does not undergo any conversion to do so, it is already very high with regard AR affinity.

I honestly don't believe Winny to be harsh at all, it gets the blame for being a DHT derivative, but that is crap, DHT accelerates hairloss through its potency at the AR and Winny has a very low affinity for the AR, I believe whenever I have asked around, guys that claim it was due to Winny are ignoring the other steroids in the stack due to the false DHT claims that have been around for years. Also those that have lost hair, were already prone to MPB and were losing it anyway, how one can determine that Winny was to blame is beyond me.........

I agree with buffdoc completely that Deca and propecia together are still a very mild combo, the point is they are only more harsh in comparison to nandrolones reduced version (DHN) and not other steroids, it is still very mild.

Bigfella.

 

[Nutrient-Nut]

I'm with "The Bigfella" on this in regards to Winstrol. Just because Winny is a DHT derivative people think that it's the culprit in their stacks, which usually include a more androgenic compound. I've never had a problem with Winstrol and hair loss, except for one time when I stacked it with Tren. Tren was the culprit, because I've done Winstrol with Equipoise...and no problems and I've done Winstrol with Deca...also no problems. Hmmmmn, maybe Winny isn't that bad after all.

NN

 

[buffdoc]

Test does play a factor with hairloss bro as will any androgen binding steroid, although they have varying degrees of effect.
Test is still a potent AR binding hormone and will accelerate pre-existing androgenic alopecia, but not to the extent of the very androgenic DHT.
Fina aggravates through the same manner, aggressive AR binding and does not undergo any conversion to do so, it is already very high with regard AR affinity.



BigFella
Gotta disagree with you on this one. This is also one of the reasons that I believe the Deca/Propecia prohibition is a myth based on hearsay. (besides, most ppl do Deca with test; surely they shouldn't forego finasteride!) I know you agree with me that the Deca/Propecia combo is weak, as you said. But there seems to be this "understanding" on the board that any and all androgens have an effect on hair loss. Simply not true. I assume that's where the Deca thing came from, that no one's really been able to explain to me or support.
It's widely acknowledged that 5 AR conversion of test to DHT is necessary for induction of androgenetic alopecia (MPB) in susceptible men and women. (This is from the 3rd Edition of Unger's book on Hair Transplantation).
This is supported by the fact that AGA does NOT occur in testicular feminization syndrome or in people with congenital 5AR deficiency (completely normal testosterone levels, but no DHT). These androgen disorders were one of the ways science learned about mechanisms of AGA. So testosterone is NOT, in and of itself, a contributor to AGA, and there's no reason to believe that any of the others, no matter how androgenic they are, (unless they are DHT), contribute to AGA.
In regards to trenbolone, stanozolol, or any other androgens; Sudden hair loss during the course of a cycle may have nothing at all to do w/ AGA. (I've posted about this before). AGA is a progressive miniaturization of the hair shaft. Each successive anagen (growth) phase becomes shorter and shorter (anagen lasts 2 to 5 YEARS), until the hair is miniaturized and eventually lost. Could this happen during a 3 or 4 MONTH cycle? No.
We use finasteride to halt or slow this GRADUAL, progressive process. Hair suddenly falling out during a cycle may be related to the gear, but I seriously doubt the influence of AGA.
Telogen effluvium? Much more possible. This can occur, suddenly, and may be triggered by a variety of stressors: diet, pregnancy, drugs, illness, fever, etc. What happens on a cycle? Dieting, drugs, stress, sweating (fever?). See the connection?
I think all the stressing about Deca/ Popecia, Tren vs Winny, etc is targeting the wrong entity.
Research telogen effluvium, and associated causes of sudden hair loss. I don't think any of this is characteristic of AGA or MPB.
To much hearsay about hair loss associated with AAS for me to ignore.

 

[buffdoc]

Re: Deca & Propecia -- no no!

By Brock Strasser:

Deca and Propecia Don't Mix

I use one milligram of Propecia a day to keep my hair. I've heard that I shouldn't use it while on Deca. Where do you stand on the issue?

I'm in 100% agreement. If you use Deca, you shouldn't use Propecia. Here's why. Propecia is a 5-a-reductase inhibitor. It prevents testosterone from becoming DHT. Compared to testosterone, DHT is more androgenic and tougher on the hairline. Deca is 5-a-reduced to DHN (dihydronandrolone). DHN is less androgenic than nandrolone. You'd want this to happen to save the hairline or minimize the androgenic insult to it. Propecia would prevent this from happening.

In conclusion, Propecia and Deca are like a fat woman and —put the two together, and you'll be sorry in the morning.

This is specious and illogical. See my other post.

 

[buffdoc]

"1-How does Winny cause hair loss?"
Throug non-ar effects i think

"2-Does Deca interact negatively with Finasteride and how/why?"
Yes
Endokrinologie 1982 Oct;80(2):163-72 Related Articles, Links


Different binding of testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives to the androgen receptor of the rat seminal vesicle: a step toward the understanding of the anabolic action of nortesterone.

Toth M, Zakar T.

Binding to the androgen receptor of rat seminal vesicle was studied in vitro using cell-free extract or minced tissue. Relative binding affinities of 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), 5 alpha-dihydro-19-nortestosterone (DHN), nortestosterone and testosterone were estimated from their competition with [3H]-DHT for the binding sites. In contrast with the conflicting results obtained with cell-free systems incubated at 0-15 degrees C, studies performed with vesicular mince at 37 degrees C proved to be useful to demonstrate characteristic differences in binding affinity and to gain information about binding both to cytosol and nuclear receptors. Competition data were graphically analyzed, and after correction for steroid metabolism the following relative competition indices were obtained: DHT = 1.00; nortestosterone = 0.32-0.4; testosterone = 0.1-0.2; DHN = 0.12. However, binding to cytosolic and nuclear receptors did not differ significantly. It is concluded that testosterone and 19-nortestosterone (which are equally good substrates for 5 alpha-reductase) are converted in the seminal vesicles to metabolites, of which DHT exhibits an affinity to the androgen receptor nearly one order of magnitude higher than that of DHN. On the other hand, in skeletal muscles that are practically devoid of 5 alpha-reductase activity, the 3-fold higher affinity of nortestosterone to the receptor, expectedly, results in a myotropic activity that is superior to that of testosterone.

PMID: 7160340 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

How does this study in ANY way show that using a 5AR inhibitor with nandrolone worsens hair loss? It only compares binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge.

 

[buffdoc]

Bump for comments

 

[Qrios]

"How does this study in ANY way show that using a 5AR inhibitor with nandrolone worsens hair loss? It only compares binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge."

Well, it shows the binding affinity for test and nandrolon before and after conversion by 5AR. It shows dhn has less binding affinity than nandrolon itself.

And yes the binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge might a little missleading if you think there is non A-receptor-effects.
Or are you saying there are different binding affinities at the hair follicle.

I'm not sure what was unclear too you in the first place.

 

[buffdoc]

"How does this study in ANY way show that using a 5AR inhibitor with nandrolone worsens hair loss? It only compares binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge."

Well, it shows the binding affinity for test and nandrolon before and after conversion by 5AR. It shows dhn has less binding affinity than nandrolon itself.

And yes the binding affinities in rat seminal vesicle blender sludge might a little missleading if you think there is non A-receptor-effects.
Or are you saying there are different binding affinities at the hair follicle.

I'm not sure what was unclear too you in the first place.

Sorry, I missed this one.
First of all, if you read the previous post (http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=2198035#post2198035)
you'll note that all androgens, regardless of binding affinities, do NOT have an equal effect on hair loss.
Also I am calling into question the entire idea that what we see during or after cycles is in fact androgenetic alopecia. As I've repeatedly noted, AGA is a relatively slow, progressive process. What we may be seeing in these oft-noted acute losses of hair, is something like a telogen effluvium.
So the whole issue of nandrolone vs DHN is probably irrelevant here; they are both relatively weak androgens anyway, so limiting conversion to DHN is probably a theoretical concern only. I feel that telling people on test and Deca to avoid Propecia is not fact-based.
I also touched on this indirectly in the sticky on Hair Loss.

 

[Qrios]

I don’t think anyone knowledgeable guy has said it would be worse on the hair with the combination deca/finasteride than testosterone neither with or without finasteride (for a given anabolic effect that is) since f. doesen’t block all 5-ar.
Too my limited knowledge the only steroids that is effected by any extent by 5-ar is nandrolone and test.
And I think Bill Roberts also have said it would be a good idea too take f. if you take test with the deca.

“In the case of nandrolone, 5alpha-reductase converts it to a milder steroid, DHN, so the enzyme is your friend and you don't want to block it. If you do, then you lose that benefit and you have the same sort of effect as with most synthetic steroids or with testosterone+finasteride,, where the scalp experiences the same steroid as the rest of the body does, rather than a milder one. Still a better situation though than with testosterone without finasteride, where the scalp experiences a more potent androgen than the rest of the body.” –Bill Roberts (from the t-mag forum)

Btw. Telogen effluvium is reversible, right?

 

[geoboy]

Sorry, I missed this one.
First of all, if you read the previous post (http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=2198035#post2198035)
you'll note that all androgens, regardless of binding affinities, do NOT have an equal effect on hair loss.
Also I am calling into question the entire idea that what we see during or after cycles is in fact androgenetic alopecia. As I've repeatedly noted, AGA is a relatively slow, progressive process. What we may be seeing in these oft-noted acute losses of hair, is something like a telogen effluvium.
So the whole issue of nandrolone vs DHN is probably irrelevant here; they are both relatively weak androgens anyway, so limiting conversion to DHN is probably a theoretical concern only. I feel that telling people on test and Deca to avoid Propecia is not fact-based.
I also touched on this indirectly in the sticky on Hair Loss.

I had this thought also on androgenetic alopecia vs telogen effluvium. the miniturization process occurs over many hair growth/loss cycles and take many months. the quick loss (even on 1-ad and the 1 test prohormones) MUST be i the nature of a shock fallout. certain chemicals/drugs/chemo are well documented to cause telogen effluvium (large numbers forced into shed phase at same time giving appearence of balding) or anagen effluvium (hair snaps off at the scalp).

if this is the case, in the short term, an agent that would inhibit the inflamation at the follicle might be good to stop the fallout. products containing copper peptides (like folligen i think) would do this.

i can actually feel the inflamation when i go high dose on androgens of any sort (xcept deca/19-nor or anavar), which is then allieviated with copper peptides at the sensitive areas (for me the temples since I've already lost the top long ago).


comments and experience welcome.

 

[buffdoc]

I don’t think anyone knowledgeable guy has said it would be worse on the hair with the combination deca/finasteride than testosterone neither with or without finasteride (for a given anabolic effect that is) since f. doesen’t block all 5-ar.
Too my limited knowledge the only steroids that is effected by any extent by 5-ar is nandrolone and test.
And I think Bill Roberts also have said it would be a good idea too take f. if you take test with the deca.

“In the case of nandrolone, 5alpha-reductase converts it to a milder steroid, DHN, so the enzyme is your friend and you don't want to block it. If you do, then you lose that benefit and you have the same sort of effect as with most synthetic steroids or with testosterone+finasteride,, where the scalp experiences the same steroid as the rest of the body does, rather than a milder one. Still a better situation though than with testosterone without finasteride, where the scalp experiences a more potent androgen than the rest of the body.” –Bill Roberts (from the t-mag forum)

Btw. Telogen effluvium is reversible, right?

Yeah, my main beef is with the idea that Deca and finasteride don't mix (test not being an issue). It's not based on any eveidence or even on logic. I just think it's gotten to be one of those things we "know" and take for granted without really thinking about. And also, Bill Roberts seems to think, as many do, that all androgens that agonize the AR have the potential to cause AGA. Not based in fact, as I've also posted.
Another thing that I've posted about and would really like to find out some day (I don't think there's any data about it at this point) is this: with the kind of supraphsiolgic levels of testosterone that are achieved with, say, a gram or more of test per week, is finasterde, or dutasteride, or ANYthing that's currently available going to prevent higher than normal levels of DHT? Or are we just kidding ourselves?
BTW, your correct: telogen effluvium IS usually reversible when the stimulus or stress is withdrawn. Classic example: regrowth after cancer chemotherapy. Scalp biopsy should be able to distinguish between AGA and TE. Anyone on trenbolone want to submit?

 

[e-man2]

Dosage of Deva to have any impact on AHL

One thing that was never discussed in this thread was the Deca/Finasteride combo in relation to dosage. At what dosage does it or would it become of any significance?

Just to let you know I am taking 300-400mg/week of Deca, with the 50mg/day winny tabs.

Peace

 

[e-man2]

Dosage of Deva to have any impact on AHL

One thing that was never discussed in this thread was the Deca/Finasteride combo in relation to dosage. At what dosage does it or would it become of any significance?

Just to let you know I am taking 300-400mg/week of Deca, with the 50mg/day winny tabs.

PS
In Roberts book he c;ear;y states that finasteride will assist in Halo conversion and help reduce hailr loss associated with halo.


Peace

 

[e-man2]

Dosage of Deca to have any impact on hairl loss

BUMP

 

[e-man2]

Bump again for dosage relation to MPB

 

[Qrios]

Re: Dosage of Deva to have any impact on AHL

One thing that was never discussed in this thread was the Deca/Finasteride combo in relation to dosage. At what dosage does it or would it become of any significance?

Just to let you know I am taking 300-400mg/week of Deca, with the 50mg/day winny tabs.

PS
In Roberts book he c;ear;y states that finasteride will assist in Halo conversion and help reduce hailr loss associated with halo.


Peace

in relation too what dosage does what become significant

I understand even less than I use too

 

[Qrios]

“Yeah, my main beef is with the idea that Deca and finasteride don't mix (test not being an issue). It's not based on any eveidence or even on logic. I just think it's gotten to be one of those things we "know" and take for granted without really thinking about. And also, Bill Roberts seems to think, as many do, that all androgens that agonize the AR have the potential to cause AGA. Not based in fact, as I've also posted.“

You don’t think the evilness of dht on the hair is because it’s has strong binding affinity?
What about those androgens with poor binding affinity? Do you think they accelerate aga?
Maybe telogen effluvium while on and accelerating androgenetic alopecia?

Just brainstorming

 

[e-man2]

300-400mg of Deca

The dosage I am reffering to is 300-400mg/wk of Deca. What impact does this dosage have on MPB if used inconjunction with Finasteride??

In other words, since Finasteride prevents Nondrolone converting to DHN, then at what dosage does Nandrolone (not DHN) become of significant impact to hair loss? Is my dosage of 300-400mg/week of any significance?


Thanks,
Peace

 

[Qrios]

Re: 300-400mg of Deca

The dosage I am reffering to is 300-400mg/wk of Deca. What impact does this dosage have on MPB if used inconjunction with Finasteride??

In other words, since Finasteride prevents Nondrolone converting to DHN, then at what dosage does Nandrolone (not DHN) become of significant impact to hair loss? Is my dosage of 300-400mg/week of any significance?


Thanks,
Peace

Don't think anyone can answer this really.
If I were on a deca/winny cycle I wouldn't take any finasteride,
can't see any reason.

 

[buffdoc]

You don’t think the evilness of dht on the hair is because it’s has strong binding affinity?
What about those androgens with poor binding affinity? Do you think they accelerate aga?
Maybe telogen effluvium while on and accelerating androgenetic alopecia?

Just brainstorming [/B][/QUOTE]



Good question. I don't know the answer to it. But here's something to chew on. The people with congenital absence of 5- AR can make no DHT, but they have normal levels of testosterone. They never develop AGA, and testosterone certainly has a strong binding affinity for the AR.

 

[jboldman]

OK, BuffDoc is correct! And here is the study to prove it( I know you do not like across the board references to studies but here it is anyway!) Note that the Note that in this study, the binding affinity of the reduced 19-nor was the same as the 19-nor but the androgenic effect was increased, hence if we assume that the alopecia is androgenic in nature( and most do), the reduced 19-nor would be more detrimental than the 19-nor.
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J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1997 Jan;60(1-2):121-9 Related Articles, Links


5alpha-reduction of norethisterone enhances its binding affinity for androgen receptors but diminishes its androgenic potency.

Lemus AE, Enriquez J, Garcia GA, Grillasca I, Perez-Palacios G.

Department of Reproductive Biology, UAM-Iztapalapa, Mexico City, Mexico.

Norethisterone (NET), a 19-nor synthetic progestin, undergoes enzyme-mediated 5alpha-reduction and exerts potent androgenic effects in target organs. To investigate its mode of androgenic action we examined, in a comparative manner, the in vitro metabolism of NET and testosterone (T), as well as the binding affinities to androgen receptors (AR) and the androgenic potency of NET, T, and their 5alpha-reduced derivatives. Bioconversion of [3H]-NET and [3H]-T was studied in rat prostate homogenates, AR binding affinity was assessed in rat ventral prostates using [3H]-mibolerone as the radioligand, and the androgenic potency was evaluated by the increase of beta-glucuronidase activity in the mouse kidney, and by the growth of accessory sex organs in castrated male rats. The results demonstrated that 5alpha-NET displayed a higher AR binding affinity but a significantly lower androgenic potency than unchanged NET. The bioconversion studies indicated that the metabolism of NET was similar to that of T, although to a lesser extent, thus ruling out the possibility that the synthetic progestin metabolizes rapidly into less active derivatives. To investigate the nature of the paradoxical effect of 5alpha-reduction upon the NET molecule, the interaction with AR and the androgenic potency of T, 19-nortestosterone (19norT), 17alpha-ethynyl testosterone (ET) and their 5alpha-reduced derivatives were examined. The results of AR binding studies revealed that 5alpha-reduction of T and ET significantly enhanced their affinities, and that the 5alpha-derivative of 19norT displayed a similar binding affinity to that exhibited by 19norT. In terms of biological activity, the results showed that 5alpha-reduction of T and 19norT significantly increased their androgenic potency , whereas 5alpha-reduction of ET resulted in a significant diminution of its androgenicity in a manner similar to that observed with the 5alpha-reduction of NET. When NET and 19norT were simultaneously administered with 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone they exhibited a potent synandrogenic activity, an effect that was cancelled by their 5alpha-reduction. Interestingly, ET displayed an antiandrogenic activity, an effect that was also suppressed by its 5alpha-reduction. The overall results demonstrated a distinctive, paradoxical effect of 5alpha-reduction upon the NET molecule, which was different from that seen in naturally occurring androgens, and which suggests that the presence of the 17alpha-ethynyl group plays a key role in this phenomenon. The data provided further evidence that the metabolism of synthetic contraceptive progestins modulates the expression of their hormone-like actions.

 

[buffdoc]

JB,
Thanks for the nice study. It reminds me of an important principle that we all forget sometimes: binding affinity does NOT necessarily translate into a positve agonist (activator) effect.
A great example is found in the opioid (narcotic) receptors. Naloxone, an opioid antagonist, binds very avidly to the receptor, so avidly that it may displace morphine and other potent agonists (activators). Yet it exerts NO opioid effect whatsoever!
Likewise, there may be substances that bind very strongly to the AR, but exert minimal biological effect.