Why you should get your endogenous test levels checked before you begin a test cycle.

[40butpumpin]

According to the AMA the "normal" range for testosterone in males is something around 300 to 1000 ng/dL, give or take a little depending on who you're asking.

However, many men have natural testosterone levels greatly exceeding these values. A doc told me once he's seen men with natural test levels >2000 ng/dL and that this was not all that uncommon.

So say you're one of the 'lucky' ones and you do indeed have endo levels pushing 2000 ng/dL and you decide to go on a low-dose test cycle. Say 250mg every week or even 250mg e5d or even e4d.

Well before I continue I know for a fact that, in my body, 200mg of exo. test every 14 days results in a blood test of approx. 450 ng/dL of total test and 200mg of exo. test every 7 days will result in a blood test of approx. 900 ng/dL of total test. This with a beginning endo level of approx. 80 ng/dL. I know this because I had all the blood work done.

So, what this says is that if you have a naturally high production of test in your body and you go on a test cycle that will not exceed what you're doing naturally, then you could actually be shutting your body down for absolutely nothing. You're going to pay money and go through all of the pain and suffering of post cycle issues, etc., for a cycle that will actually yield a lower testosterone number to your body then if you didn't to the cycle at all.

What I suggest is to spend a few dollars on a blood test and see what your body is doing naturally before you use any testosterone exogenously. If you're high, then why bother doing a low-dose test cycle?

I'd appreciate hearing some opinions on this. Maybe I'm missing something but this makes perfect sense to me.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

 

[satchboogie]

good info bro.
'you must spread karma before giving it to 40butpumpin again'

 

[40butpumpin]

good info bro.
'you must spread karma before giving it to 40butpumpin again'

Thanks bro.

 

[big pumper]

good post, another reason IMO to use higher dosages.

i wouldn't waste my time and money doing 250mg of test e a week.

 

[sk*]

Moral of the story: Take 2grams of test so there is no chance that your body produces that much.

















J/K.

-sk

 

[40butpumpin]

good post, another reason IMO to use higher dosages.

i wouldn't waste my time and money doing 250mg of test e a week.

no disrespect bro, but this is not a push to do high(er) doses. It is, however, a suggestion to find out if a low dose would be a complete waste of time and money and possibly even health.

on the flip-side of this is there's many bro's with values just barely normal, say 300-400 ng/dL, who may do great on 250mg e5d which would shoot them to close to or better than 1000 ng/dL. Is that good? i don't know but it would be more than twice as good as what he started with.

i'm just saying we can do this smart instead of doing a "pin the tail on the donkey" with doses.

 

[easy]

Good thread bro. I was 130ng/dl before I started HRT. Even with only 100mgs every 5 days I'm growing again. Got my first "you look bigger" yesterday. Felt good. Anayway, I can't stress enough the importance of getting blood work done and knowing what's going on inside. I would hate to be that guy that messes himself up b/c he didn't put in alittle xtra time and $ for knowledge that he should have used to base his rational for dabbling in the first place. Damn that was a long sentence.

 

[40butpumpin]

Good thread bro. I was 130ng/dl before I started HRT. Even with only 100mgs every 5 days I'm growing again. Got my first "you look bigger" yesterday. Felt good. Anayway, I can't stress enough the importance of getting blood work done and knowing what's going on inside. I would hate to be that guy that messes himself up b/c he didn't put in alittle xtra time and $ for knowledge that he should have used to base his rational for dabbling in the first place. Damn that was a long sentence.

nice man. my guess would be 100mg e5d would put you better than 4 times what you started with, which is very difficult to say isn't good.

'physiologic' levels are relative from person to person and it makes sense (to me anyway) that if you double, triple or possibly quadruple someones test levels, considering where they start from, they will look, feel and respond like supraphysiologic levels.

which obviosly does not mean 2grams, or even 1 gram, of test per week.

some food for thought anyway.

 

[Juice Authority]

no disrespect bro, but this is not a push to do high(er) doses. It is, however, a suggestion to find out if a low dose would be a complete waste of time and money and possibly even health.

on the flip-side of this is there's many bro's with values just barely normal, say 300-400 ng/dL, who may do great on 250mg e5d which would shoot them to close to or better than 1000 ng/dL. Is that good? i don't know but it would be more than twice as good as what he started with.

i'm just saying we can do this smart instead of doing a "pin the tail on the donkey" with doses.

That kid (and he is just just a kid) is just looking for validation for his 1g of test per week newbie first cycle. Ain't going to happen.

2000ng/dl seems off the chart for one's natural T-levels but I suppose it could happen fo some lucky bastards. The logic follows that someone with natural high T-levels will suppress his hpta on a low-dosed test cycle. It seems to me to be very counter-productive and emphasizes the importance to check your T-levels prior to going on a cycle. Good post.

 

[Koivu_11]

I'm actually doing the maths and....... ouch!!!

dude, 1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg per *human body*. Based on a 160 pounds human being. So that's at 1000ng/dl. I think that even for a 300 pounder 0.05mg in his body would put him at the 600ng/dl range.

 

[40butpumpin]

I'm actually doing the maths and....... ouch!!!

dude, 1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg per *human body*. Based on a 160 pounds human being. So that's at 1000ng/dl. I think that even for a 300 pounder 0.05mg in his body would put him at the 600ng/dl range.

the adult human body contains 56 deciliters of blood, so...

56 dL x 1 ng/dL = 56 ng or 0.056 mcg or 0.000056 mg

based on this logic then...

1,000 ng/dL -> 0.056 mg
10,000 ng/dL -> 0.56 mg
100,000 ng/dL -> 5.6 mg
1,000,000 ng/dL -> 56 mg
5,000,000 ng/dL -> 280 mg

which doesn't make sense obviously.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Some good points but I have to disagree with your doctor on the numbers.

2000ngs normal? Holy fuck, I doubt Gengus Kahn had that much testosterone. Professional athletes tend to be in the upper hundreds with 1000 being extremely rare. I think our doc is way off -- unless he's used to seeing a lot of "juiced patients."

Once T levels go over 1000, there are health risks involved.

Also, it's doubtful that 100 mgs a week will put you lower than normal because it isn't that suppressive. My T is naturally around 300. With 100 mgs a week it's around 900. If I stop, it goes to about 200. This suggests that my body is still producing T in spite of the exogenous administration.

One thing I strongly agree with is the need to check your levels before self admnistering HRT. If you're producing enough test, it's a shame to become dependant on it. Some guys think it's attractive to have upper end levels all the time, but if they just lowered SHBG they'd be so much better off than raising total T . And once you're on, it's doubtful you'll ever come back to where you once were.

 

[easy]

One thing I strongly agree with is the need to check your levels before self admnistering HRT. If you're producing enough test, it's a shame to become dependant on it. Some guys think it's attractive to have upper end levels all the time, but if they just lowered SHBG they'd be so much better off than raising total T . And once you're on, it's doubtful you'll ever come back to where you once were.

Does wisdom come with old age?? J/K bro. Losts of bros don't think this way and look to cycle for instant gratification instead of looking at the #s to see what really would be the best course of action. Blood work is a must.

 

[DrJMW]

What I suggest is to spend a few dollars on a blood test and see what your body is doing naturally before you use any testosterone exogenously. If you're high, then why bother doing a low-dose test cycle?

I'd appreciate hearing some opinions on this. Maybe I'm missing something but this makes perfect sense to me. [/B][/QUOTE]

THERE ARE MANY OTHER REASONS TO GET BASELINE TESTING AS WELL--CHOLESTEROL LEVELS, KIDNEY AND LIVER FUNCTION, CBC. THE ADDITION OF ANY PHARAMCEUTICAL WILL CHANGE THESE VALUES--SOME FOR THE BETTER AND SOME FOR THE WORST. IT IS FOOLISH TO PROCEED WITHOUT BASELINE TESTING, TESTING DURING A CYCLE, AND POST-RECOVERY TESTING. YOUR GENETICS DETERMINES HOW YOUR BODY HANDLES EXCESSIVE LEVELS OF ANY DRUG.

 

[Koivu_11]

the adult human body contains 56 deciliters of blood, so...

56 dL x 1 ng/dL = 56 ng or 0.056 mcg or 0.000056 mg

based on this logic then...

1,000 ng/dL -> 0.056 mg
10,000 ng/dL -> 0.56 mg
100,000 ng/dL -> 5.6 mg
1,000,000 ng/dL -> 56 mg
5,000,000 ng/dL -> 280 mg

which doesn't make sense obviously.

those ng/dl are at any given time, so it does make sense. It is real convesition factors, so don't claim they're not true. I won't go any further because your theory doesn't make any sense too obviously. Sorry we're talking about NG. Fucking nanograms. Not mcg nor mg: it is ng.... That's a VERY small ammounts.

 

[under_dawg]

I was actually thinking about posting a question related to this thread today....Hwo does it make sense to constantly be telling newbies "you HAVE to take XXX amount of test per week to see results", or "XXX amount of gear is way to much for you" when they have no idea about the end. test levels????? shouldn't the amount of gear taken be a direct reflection of these pre-cycle test levels??????
UD

 

[40butpumpin]

those ng/dl are at any given time, so it does make sense. It is real convesition factors, so don't claim they're not true. I won't go any further because your theory doesn't make any sense too obviously. Sorry we're talking about NG. Fucking nanograms. Not mcg nor mg: it is ng.... That's a VERY small ammounts.

it doesn't eh? see, the thing that bugs me about this is you try come off like i know nothing of what i'm speaking when in fact it's you that have no clue about what you're talking about. why can't you just express your question, comment, or opionion w/o trying to make me look bad and you look good. but i'll bite my tongue for now and just explain why i'm right.

Say you inject 250mg into a body that has 56 dL of blood. that says the following:

250e6 ng/56 dL = 4.5e6 ng/dL

so 250 mg should result in a blood testosterone level of 4.5 MILLION ng/dL????

Absolutely NOT. The reason is we ARE NOT talking about an I.V. administration but an intramuscular one in an oil-based, esterifed testosterone.

There is a HUGE difference in what ends up in the blood and resulting levels because of these differences.

In an IM inject it is suspended in oil and has to fight off MANY obstacles to reach the blood, which VERY little ever does in fact. With an IV every bit goes right into the blood stream obviously.

So please don't tell me what to claim and not to claim unless you can back it up with more than bullshit.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

40BP--I just started HRT. I think the doc overprescribed me a little bit at 200 mg TE/wk. I want to save the extras and will be monitored every 4 weeks for the time being so I am following the protocol of: wk 1 = 200 mg (shot at docs office), wk 2 = 100 mg, wk 3 & 4 = 50 mg; Or alternatively, 50 mg every 5 days after the first 200 mg shot... Will either of these protocols leave me in the upper end of the normal range?

Where I'm at right now is 200 mg last Fri (shot at doc's office) and 50 mg today (five days later)... input please...

 

[Koivu_11]

it doesn't eh? see, the thing that bugs me about this is you try come off like i know nothing of what i'm speaking when in fact it's you that have no clue about what you're talking about. why can't you just express your question, comment, or opionion w/o trying to make me look bad and you look good. but i'll bite my tongue for now and just explain why i'm right.

Say you inject 250mg into a body that has 56 dL of blood. that says the following:

250e6 ng/56 dL = 4.5e6 ng/dL

so 250 mg should result in a blood testosterone level of 4.5 MILLION ng/dL????

Absolutely NOT. The reason is we ARE NOT talking about an I.V. administration but an intramuscular one in an oil-based, esterifed testosterone.

There is a HUGE difference in what ends up in the blood and resulting levels because of these differences.

In an IM inject it is suspended in oil and has to fight off MANY obstacles to reach the blood, which VERY little ever does in fact. With an IV every bit goes right into the blood stream obviously.

So please don't tell me what to claim and not to claim unless you can back it up with more than bullshit.

well dude, you're seriously off the track. First of all, 250mg of esterified test won't give a concentration of 4.5mil nanograms/dl. That exemple was the proof of how silly it was. the ng/dl is the level of free test at any momment. That's like saying : dude you're wrong, shooting 250mg of test e is not like shooting 250mg of free test.. Lol I knew that! I just said that 1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg of FREE TEST AT ANY GIVEN MOMMENT. So come on dude.... Don't be an ass whit those kinds of comments by saying I don't know what we're talking about. I hate the attitude you had towards me. The guys has 100 posts so he don't know anything... That's silly .... SILLY! I'm sorry if you're a respectable vet or I don't know but come on don't said I don't have a clue of what you're talking about...

 

[40butpumpin]

well dude, you're seriously off the track. First of all, 250mg of esterified test won't give a concentration of 4.5mil nanograms/dl. That exemple was the proof of how silly it was. the ng/dl is the level of free test at any momment. That's like saying : dude you're wrong, shooting 250mg of test e is not like shooting 250mg of free test.. Lol I knew that! I just said that 1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg of FREE TEST AT ANY GIVEN MOMMENT. So come on dude.... Don't be an ass whit those kinds of comments by saying I don't know what we're talking about. I hate the attitude you had towards me. The guys has 100 posts so he don't know anything... That's silly .... SILLY! I'm sorry if you're a respectable vet or I don't know but come on don't said I don't have a clue of what you're talking about...

i can't honestly tell if i'm misinterpreting you or not. i'm having a very difficult time following you to be honest. first of all you said that "1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg of FREE TEST." aside from the "FREE TEST" part, that's a simple math calculation but has no bearing on what the actual number will be in your blood. next, in your first sentence above you say i'm "off track" and that "250mg of esterified test won't give a concentration of 4.5mil nanograms/dl." which is exactly what i said in my last post. you mention "free test" above. i am not talking about free test here but rather total test. i wouldn't even begin to try to know what that number would or should be from person to person based on exogenously administered test. finally, in one of your posts above you said my "'theory' doesn't make any sense." you still haven't shown me why it doesn't.

so this is not "theory" at all and in fact is as simple as what you get out from what you put in, which is not complicated and should change very little from person to person if we're talking about total test.

so i guess the bottom line here is we're not understanding each other for some reason. if it's me someone please point out to me what i'm missing here because i'm having a hell of a time understanding this guy. but the more i read your posts, Koivu_11, the more confused i get.

btw, i never looked at your post count, nor do i care to know what it is. i also don't think of myself as more knowledgeable or more experienced than anyone else here.

 

[40butpumpin]

40BP--I just started HRT. I think the doc overprescribed me a little bit at 200 mg TE/wk. I want to save the extras and will be monitored every 4 weeks for the time being so I am following the protocol of: wk 1 = 200 mg (shot at docs office), wk 2 = 100 mg, wk 3 & 4 = 50 mg; Or alternatively, 50 mg every 5 days after the first 200 mg shot... Will either of these protocols leave me in the upper end of the normal range?

Where I'm at right now is 200 mg last Fri (shot at doc's office) and 50 mg today (five days later)... input please...

bro why do you want to do this? what was your baseline total test number? as Nelson pointed out above, your endo test will be additive to any exo you use so that's important to know. so it could put you in the upper end of normal depending on what that number is.

but by my estimation, 50mg of exo test per week should result in an additional increase of between 200 to 400 ng/dL of total test in your blood. if you get checked and it turns out to be between 500 and 600 ng/dL as a result of the exo and endo combined, i bet your doc will be inclined to leave it at that and have you continue with whatever he thinks you're using at that time as opposed to increasing your dose until you get to 800 or 900 ng/dL. mine did that and i had to work to convince him to increase me.

also keep in mind the half-life of the ester so you know when the peak and low concentrations will be for repeat blood tests.

hth man.

 

[40butpumpin]

I was actually thinking about posting a question related to this thread today....Hwo does it make sense to constantly be telling newbies "you HAVE to take XXX amount of test per week to see results", or "XXX amount of gear is way to much for you" when they have no idea about the end. test levels????? shouldn't the amount of gear taken be a direct reflection of these pre-cycle test levels??????
UD

i think so, yes.

 

[Koivu_11]

ok thanks for staying calm lol...

First of all, english is not my main language. That explains why it sometimes makes my post, well, not totally perfect.

Second of all, total test in a male human body being tested at 1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg. Not 0.05mg in a day, not 0.05 in a week, exactly 0.05mg in his whole body at the time the test was done. I don't see how 200mg of test per week COULD be less than anyone's endogenous total test production over a week span. Since we're producing so little test naturally. Anyways...

 

[40butpumpin]

ok thanks for staying calm lol...

First of all, english is not my main language. That explains why it sometimes makes my post, well, not totally perfect.

Second of all, total test in a male human body being tested at 1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg. Not 0.05mg in a day, not 0.05 in a week, exactly 0.05mg in his whole body at the time the test was done. I don't see how 200mg of test per week COULD be less than anyone's endogenous total test production over a week span. Since we're producing so little test naturally. Anyways...

"total test in a male human body being tested at 1000ng/dl equals to 0.05mg"

of course, that's just converting 1000ng/dL to mg's considering 56 dL of blood (that in an adult human body). no biggie.

"I don't see how 200mg of test per week COULD be less than anyone's endogenous total test production over a week span. "

simply by producing more test naturally than what 200mg would yield. if you believe that everyone produces less than 1000ng/dL (bullshit) then you're right, it will be very close to a wash or maybe a little more. I believe there are indeed men that are producing between 1000 and 2000 ng/dL. In that case it would obviosly be less.

giving me the benefit of the doubt, say you're producing 1200 or 1300 ng/dL test naturally. is it worth it to mess with this knowing that 200mg/wk of exo test will yield approximately 800ng/dL on its own? i can't see how anyone in their right mind could say 'yes' to this question.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

40 -- So what, bump it to 100? 150? I don't have the test in front of me but I was pretty low, well below the low end of the range.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

I want to bump it up to where I'm on the high end of the range without her cutting back my prescription, which is currently at 200 mg/wk -- I think 200 mg/wk will put me well over the high end, so I want to scale it back to where I come in high, but not off the charts...

 

[40butpumpin]

40 -- So what, bump it to 100? 150? I don't have the test in front of me but I was pretty low, well below the low end of the range.

bro i was at approx. 80 ng/dL and he put me on 200mg eow which got me to 450 approx. then he wanted to keep me there and i basically said "bullshit" so he let me do 200mg ew which got me to very close to 900 ng/dL. He said i could stick with the 200mg ew because i told him "i felt great with that dose." that definitely impressed him.

based on that, i'd say go with 100mg ew which should put you between 400 and 600 on its own. considering your natural contribution will be small, as you've stated, it should put you mid to high end of normal.

that's what i would do bro. i hope that helps you out. please let me know how it turns out man.

 

[40butpumpin]

as a final point to this thread i'd just like to say that bro's may have ample test in their bodies to grow just fine and instead of messing up a good thing, get a simple bood test.

if you get a blood test it will tell you either

a) you're plenty high and you really need to think hard about messing with a nice high natural test production;

b) you're mid to upper range of normal in which case 250mg ew or e5d may be fine if you're so inclined to run test; or

c) you're on the low end of normal which would justify 500mg ew or e5d for a cycle.

that's my opinion anyway. it's just taking into consideration what your body is doing naturally which will differ greatly from person to person. it's a very big unknown yet is not insignificant. with a simple blood test you can really help yourself know yourself better.

 

[40butpumpin]

Hmmm... maybe I should just run the 200...

then you'll run the risk of coming in too high and her wanting to cut you back. imo.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Hmmm... maybe I should just run the 200...

 

[THeMaCHinE]

then you'll run the risk of coming in too high and her wanting to cut you back. imo.

yeah, that's what I was worried about -- guess I'll go 100 -- I don't want to come in suspiciously low because she'll know I'm holding back. She's a bb and knows I've cycled. She at first wanted to do 200 mg e3wks, I talked her into every week because that's what I'd heard as the high end of HRT...

I'm not sure what scale she's using, but it starts at 300 and goes to 900(?) (I think, I don't have the test in front of me)... I came in at 175. I was 6 or 7 weeks post-cycle, so I think I may have still been a bit depressed, but she didn't think so, so she started me...

 

[40butpumpin]

yeah, that's what I was worried about -- guess I'll go 100 -- I don't want to come in suspiciously low because she'll know I'm holding back. She's a bb and knows I've cycled. She at first wanted to do 200 mg e3wks, I talked her into every week because that's what I'd heard as the high end of HRT...

I'm not sure what scale she's using, but it starts at 300 and goes to 900(?) (I think, I don't have the test in front of me)... I came in at 175. I was 6 or 7 weeks post-cycle, so I think I may have still been a bit depressed, but she didn't think so, so she started me...

175, i'd def go with 100 mg. your natural contrib may be better now then at that time too so i wouldn't risk it if i were you bro.

 

[THeMaCHinE]

That's what I'll do then. 50 mg x 2 /wk...

 

[Stillgoing]

40, good post as always. You raise a good discussion point. My experience was: I started figuring out I might have a endo test problem a year and a half ago when I did a cycle at 125-200mg of test per week and made big gains on it and felt great. It was all muscle memory for me since I had been much bigger when I was younger, but, to make huge gains on that dosage told me that my levels, regardless of what they were, were not performing for me anymore. Then I crashed really hard after the cycle, etc. etc. As further confirmation, similar to Easy, I later went back on 100mg E5D. The transformation in my body after a month on that was really quite amazing. I would think with endo test levels that are high enough to function well, such low dosages would in fact, have little effect. So, I agree with you....

 

[40butpumpin]

Stillgoing1, thanks bro, good to hear from you. is thebigC a happy man yet?

 

[easy]

For all the recent HRT ???s.