Why Winstrol is a BAD choice to stack in a cycle

[Juice Authority]

On my other thread I posted my lab report tests where everything improved except my HDL levels, which went down from 21 to 16.

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=275327

TOT - reduced
LDL reduced greatly - thanks to Fonz's supplement cocktail
HDL (good Cholesterol) went down - this is NOT good. Unfortunately there is NO supplement or medciation you can take to raise HDL levvels - may be in the future but not now. Ask any Doctor and he will tell you the same thing.

Here's what Winstrol does and why it's a bad choice to use in a cycle:

Sources of variability in genetic association studies: insights from the analysis of hepatic lipase (LIPC).

Shohet RV, Vega GL, Bersot TP, Mahley RW, Grundy SM, Guerra R, Cohen JC.

Internal Medicine, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, Dallas, Texas, USA.

Genetic association studies have been widely used to identify loci that influence plasma lipoprotein concentrations, but few of the associations reported have proved consistently reproducible across different study populations. This lack of consistency is a widely recognized limitation of association studies, and is often ascribed to inadequate statistical power, population substructure, and population-specific linkage disequilibrium. However, few studies have assessed the causes of variability underlying a given genotype-phenotype association. We have examined two possible sources of variability in the association between the -514 polymorphism in hepatic lipase (LIPC) and plasma HDL-C concentrations. First, we compared the association between this polymorphism and hepatic lipase activity in four populations. A single copy of the -514C allele was associated with a 10 mmol.hr(-1).l(-1) increase in hepatic lipase activity in white American and Turkish men but only approximately 5 mmol.hr(-1).l(-1) in Chinese and African-American men. Second, we tested the effects of a stanozolol-induced increase in hepatic lipase activity on plasma HDL-C concentrations in men with normal (< 150mg/dl) or elevated (150-300mg/dl) levels of plasma triglyceride. The increase in hepatic lipase activity was similar in the two groups, but the resulting decline in HDL-C levels was significantly greater in normolipidemic men. These data suggest that the effect of a polymorphism on gene expression can vary among individuals, and that the resulting phenotype may be further modified by interactions with other factors. Three novel LIPC polymorphisms were identified in the study (-1596insC, -2740A>G, and -2880G>C). Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Publication Types:
Multicenter Study

PMID: 11968086 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Keep in mind, the subjects of this test were using only winstrol. I never plan to use winstrol again my cycle. Not only does it shut down your HDL it also cause tremendous pain in the joints and tendons so why bother with it when you can use D-bol. They are both 17aa's but D-bol is a lot less harsh on the lipid level than winstrol. Also, I've never had any pain in my joints and tendons on D-bol. If you chose to use a 17aa I would highly recommend D-bol or Anavar over Winstrol or use Winstrol in short spurts. My HDL went down from 21 top 16 using 50mg's of Winstrol ed fro only 3 weeks. Not worth it imo.

 

[Juice Authority]

bump for comments on this..

 

[dzuljas]

yeah winstrol does fuck up one's lipid profile nicely

 

[Boulder257]

what do you think would be a better alternative for a cutting cycle?

 

[Juice Authority]

what do you think would be a better alternative for a cutting cycle?

ANAVAR hands down.

 

[concordsize]

yeah but most steroids screw up ur lipid pannel.

 

[Juice Authority]

Here's another study that proves my poin.

Hepatic lipase activity influences high density lipoprotein subclass distribution in normotriglyceridemic men. Genetic and pharmacological evidence.

Grundy SM, Vega GL, Otvos JD, Rainwater DL, Cohen JC.

Center for Human Nutrition, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas, TX, 75235-9052, USA.

Several studies have reported an inverse relationship between hepatic lipase activity and plasma high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol concentrations. The purpose of the present study was to determine whether genetic and pharmacological variation in hepatic lipase activity alters the distribution of HDL subclasses. Two independent analytical methods (nuclear magnetic resonance and gradient gel electrophoresis) were used to compare HDL subclass distributions in 11 homozygotes for the -514C allele of hepatic lipase and in 6 homozygotes for the -514T allele. Mean hepatic lipase activity was 45 +/- 15 mmol. l(-1). hr(-1) in -514C homozygotes and 20 +/- 7 mmol. l(-1). hr(-1) in -514T homozygotes. Both analytical methods indicated that HDL(2b) was significantly higher and HDL(3a) was significantly lower in -514T homozygotes than in -514C homozygotes. No differences were noted in the other HDL fractions (HDL(2a), HDL(3b), and HDL(3c)). To determine the effects of increased hepatic lipase activity, 20 men were given the synthetic anabolic steroid, stanozolol. Stanozolol treatment increased hepatic lipase activity more than two-fold (38 +/- 18 to 85 +/- 25 mmol. l(-1). hr(-1) ), and markedly reduced the plasma concentrations of the larger HDL subclasses (HDL(2b) and HDL(2a)). The plasma concentrations of the smallest HDL subclasses (HDL(3b) and HDL(3c)) were unchanged by stanozolol treatment. Taken together, these genetic and pharmacological data indicate that variation in hepatic lipase activity has highly specific effects on the distribution of HDL subclasses in the circulation.-Grundy, S. M., G. L. Vega, J. D. Otvos, D. L. Rainwater, and J. C. Cohen. Hepatic lipase activity influences high density lipoprotein subclass distribution in normotriglyceridemic men: genetic and pharmacological evidence.

PMID: 9925651 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Juice Authority]

This should answer any further questions as to why I never plan to use Winstrol again.


Metabolism. 1997 Sep;46(9):992-6. Related Articles, Links


Effects of short-term stanozolol administration on serum lipoproteins in hepatic lipase deficiency.

Bausserman LL, Saritelli AL, Herbert PN.

Lipid Research Laboratory, Miriam Hospital, Brown University Medical School, Providence, RI, USA.

We have identified a kindred in Providence, RI, deficient in hepatic triglyceride lipase (HL). The two affected brothers have coronary heart disease and elevated levels of triglycerides, total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, and apolipoprotein [apo] A-I. The lipoprotein lipase (LPL) activity is normal. We and others have postulated that the effects of oral anabolic steroids on HDL metabolism are mediated by HL. To test this hypothesis, we treated these two men and two controls with the oral androgen stanozolol (6 mg/d) for 2 weeks. Consistent with other reports, HL activity increased a mean of 277% in controls with a concomitant decrease in HDL cholesterol (49%), HDL2 cholesterol (90%), HDL3 cholesterol (16%), and apo A-I (41%) and no change in apo A-II. Although stanozolol failed to induce HL activity in the HL-deficient man, HDL cholesterol, HDL2 cholesterol, and apo A-I were reduced a mean of 20%, 48%, and 32%, respectively. In contrast to controls, HDL3 cholesterol (46%) and apo A-II (14%) increased in HL-deficient subjects. Stanozolol treatment also increased LPL activity (124% +/- 86%, n = 4) and decreased lipoprotein(a) ([Lp(a)] 66% +/- 3%, n = 3) in the three men with detectable levels. The data indicate that in addition to stimulation of HL activity, stanozolol treatment changes HDL cholesterol concentration and subfraction distribution by other mechanisms.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 9284885 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[DeepZenPill]

Anavar is also pretty bad on HDL/lipids

 

[Laser0001]

What is your HDL off cycle? Sub 30 sounds terrible period.

 

[totti28]

Good post. Winstrols adverse effects on lipid levels are why I NEVER use it in my cycles. The same goes for arimidex, instead I use proviron/nolva for anti-e protection. I hate when guys recommend .25mg of arimidex for every 250mg of test. Totally irresponsible advice in my opinion. I m currently on 1 gram of test per week, and 50mg of proviron and 20mg of nolva EOD is al I need for anti-e protection. A added benefit of Nolva is that it increased your HDL levels.

 

[dzuljas]

totti??? how did you get so much red karma?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Just to offer the other side of the argument.

1: Winstrol is every bit as bad as you say, but others aren't much better. And I'll bet fina is as bad in every way and worse in others.

2: Winny has certain advantages, including acting as an anti-e and anti prog -- essential if using deca and advisable on tren.

3: Winstrol may incrase the effectiveness of other steroids since it lowers SHBG.

4: The procedures you took to lower you cholesterol should have been taken before. It's common knowledge.

5: You CAN raise HDL. Policosinol, Omega 3's and Apple Pectin have all been shown to improve HDL/LDL ratios.

Just offering the other side of the picture.






















CLOSE THE THREAD!!!

 

[Laser0001]

Is Niacin not effective for raising HDL?

 

[pharmguy]

HDL (good Cholesterol) went dow - this is NOT good. Unfortunately there is NO supplement or medciation you can take to raise HDL levvels - may be in the future but not now. Ask any Doctor and he will tell you the same thing.

Is Niacin not effective for raising HDL?

I was just going to say, Nicain raises HDL. And High dose Niacin is not considered a supplement by the medical community, it is considered a drug.

 

[BO-DEN]

anavar is what i statred using to sub. winny its just as hard on your body as anadrol. anavar is a much better drug... for me at least

 

[Warpath]

Is Niacin not effective for raising HDL?

Niacin: decreases LDL 10-20%, decreases triglycerides 20-50% and increases HDL 15-25%. Side effects include upper body flushing, itching, GI discomfort and can increase AST and ALT. Dosage 3-6 grams/day. I take niacin every day and it works good for me. Inositol hexanicotinate is a form of niacin that does not produce the flushing and itching side effects. Taking niacin is a good idea for anybody looking to improve their lipid profile.

 

[DeepZenPill]

Just to offer the other side of the argument.

1: Winstrol is every bit as bad as you say, but others aren't much better. And I'll bet fina is as bad in every way and worse in others.

This point is so very true. Non-aromatizing AAS tend to be pretty bad on cholesterol because of the suppression of estrogen, among other reasons. Tren, winny, and anavar are pretty bad in that regard, and I'm sure there are a few more drugs that can be added to that list.

More people need to acknowledge that one of anabolics' major sides is screwed up cholesterol and triglycerides. But nobody sees this effect unless they get a blood test, so it is largely ignored by steroid users. Cholesterol-improving supps should be just as crucial a part of cycling as post cycle drugs/supps.

 

[variation]

I do see benefits over using winstrol vs anavar...

but my question is, what does it matter if LDL is higher and HDL is lower during a short period of time.. winstrol usually isn't used that long. I would think it is only important to take measures in prolonged cycles. a few weeks surely isn't going to clog up your arteries and kill you. ;/

 

[Laser0001]

I do see benefits over using winstrol vs anavar...

but my question is, what does it matter if LDL is higher and HDL is lower during a short period of time.. winstrol usually isn't used that long. I would think it is only important to take measures in prolonged cycles. a few weeks surely isn't going to clog up your arteries and kill you. ;/

His lipid profile is bad enough going in, why take that chance

 

[JP@Ironology]

Winstrol and hair, a terrible mix for me.

 

[variation]

His lipid profile is bad enough going in, why take that chance

oh ya, I wasn't nescaserrily suggesting people with pre-existing poor cholesterol levels not to overly-worry, but I don't see why someone with acceptable ranges should worry over a short cycle of winny.

 

[geoboy]

I had a pretty bad lipid profile due to var and 1-test, with high ldl, low hdl and bad total/hdl ratio. my hdl was in the middle teens.

all i did was use metamucil (psyillium seed husk) 3x a day, and use olive oil. i had the policosanol and no-flush niacin ready to go if neccessary, bu went for labs after 2 months off, and hdl up to 34, and total chol WAY down, with total/ratio/&ldl in normal range.

iow, at a minimum, try the metamucil and olive oil.

 

[Ulter]

I love using winny every chance I get. I really don't care what my lipid profile looks like for the 6 weeks I use it. Since there is no evidence anywhere that a lipid profile that is bad but short in duration will ever have any effect on your heart or cause CAD throughout your life, who cares?
That's like measuring someones liver values when they are blasted and saying, "these liver values are lethal". Well yeah they are if you stay on that much alcohol all the time. But I don't think that takes in many guys on this board.
Use Deca to offset the joint pain and don't use more than you can handle. For me that's 100mg/day but for many it's 50mg/day.

 

[variation]

I love using winny every chance I get. I really don't care what my lipid profile looks like for the 6 weeks I use it. Since there is no evidence anywhere that a lipid profile that is bad but short in duration will ever have any effect on your heart or cause CAD throughout your life, who cares?
That's like measuring someones liver values when they are blasted and saying, "these liver values are lethal". Well yeah they are if you stay on that much alcohol all the time. But I don't think that takes in many guys on this board.
Use Deca to offset the joint pain and don't use more than you can handle. For me that's 100mg/day but for many it's 50mg/day.

exactly what I was thinking, though I haven't used winny before... I do however have 20g on it's way.. plan on running it with prop real soon.

 

[tiger88]

Winstrol and hair, a terrible mix for me.

thats why i have never touched it

 

[Juice Authority]

I was just going to say, Nicain raises HDL. And High dose Niacin is not considered a supplement by the medical community, it is considered a drug.

Diet and the proper nutrition are the only things the will raise HDL. The is NO magic pill and Nicain certainly isn't one of them.

 

[Juice Authority]

Niacin: decreases LDL 10-20%, decreases triglycerides 20-50% and increases HDL 15-25%. Side effects include upper body flushing, itching, GI discomfort and can increase AST and ALT. Dosage 3-6 grams/day. I take niacin every day and it works good for me. Inositol hexanicotinate is a form of niacin that does not produce the flushing and itching side effects. Taking niacin is a good idea for anybody looking to improve their lipid profile.

Where do you get this information?? This is totally incorrect...post some studies that validate this. Let me repeat, THERE IS NO PHARMACEUATICAL PILL OR SUPPLEMENT THAT RAISES HDL LEVELS. NONE!!! THERE ARE SOME IN CLINICAL TRIALS BUT THERE IS NOTHING BEING PRESCRIBED TO RAISE HDL LEVELS.

 

[tiger88]

I love using winny every chance I get. I really don't care what my lipid profile looks like for the 6 weeks I use it. Since there is no evidence anywhere that a lipid profile that is bad but short in duration will ever have any effect on your heart or cause CAD throughout your life, who cares?
That's like measuring someones liver values when they are blasted and saying, "these liver values are lethal". Well yeah they are if you stay on that much alcohol all the time. But I don't think that takes in many guys on this board.
Use Deca to offset the joint pain and don't use more than you can handle. For me that's 100mg/day but for many it's 50mg/day.

great post, i was thinking the same thing. if your lipid profiles are high for 4-8 weeks and back to normal soon after that, why not use it? but i will pay the extra $ and buy anavar since it is hard on the hair line.

 

[Laser0001]

Where do you get this information?? This is totally incorrect...post some studies that validate this. Let me repeat, THERE IS NO PHARMACEUATICAL PILL OR SUPPLEMENT THAT RAISES HDL LEVELS. NONE!!! THERE ARE SOME IN CLINICAL TRIALS BUT THERE IS NOTHING BEING PRESCRIBED TO RAISE HDL LEVELS.

I took niacin till I was blue in the face and my hdl went from 33 to 35 within a few months.BFD

 

[Juice Authority]

I took niacin till I was blue in the face and my hdl went from 33 to 35 within a few months.BFD

I didn't mean to be rude. I've researched this and have spoken to many MD's about raising low HDL levels and the common answer was proper diet (fish and flexseed) and exercise (cardio unforunately).

Now there are drugs that prescribed such as Lipotor but they mainly LOWER LDL levels and have no effect on the HDL. If Nicain worked for you I'll give a try. It can't hurt. Having an HDL level of 16 is some pretty scary shit and the MD that went over blood tests with me was very concerned as am I. Normal range for HDL levels is 40. My HDL level of 16 puts my heath at great risk. I've had to totally change my diet as a result of this. I'm only 30 years old and this is not normal at all.

 

[Laser0001]

That was my point, my HDL went up 2 points after several months of niacin and flax seed oil. Big F------ Deal. I no longer take niacin

 

[galaxy]

Winny is good to end a cycle with when using deca to prevent any progesterone induced gyno that may begin to flare up.

 

[Juice Authority]

There is one company that I'm intimately familiar with as our company is financing their clinical trials. The company is Xexon Genetics based in Canada.


http://www.xenongenetics.com/scripts/index_.asp?action=31&P_ID=53&N_ID=1&PT_ID=9&U_ID=0

Low HDL-Cholesterol


Introduction
Approximately half of all patients with coronary artery disease have low levels of HDL-cholesterol ("good cholesterol"). Low HDL is a common form of lipid abnormality, which significantly increases the risk of coronary disease and for which currently no effective treatment is available. In addition, elevated LDL-cholesterol ("bad cholesterol") and elevated triglycerides can further, and independently, contribute to coronary artery disease.

A study by Xenon focusing on patients with the low HDL-cholesterol disorder, Tangier disease, led to the discovery of adenosine triphosphate-binding cassette transporter A1 (ABCA1) in 1999, a gene that regulates the concentration of HDL-cholesterol. Tangier disease was the first genetic HDL deficiency to be identified and was initially described in two siblings from Tangier Island. The disease has been established as being due to a defect involving intracellular trafficking of cholesterol (cholesterol efflux), resulting in an accumulation of cholesterol in the cell and hence, low levels of HDL. Xenon scientists identified the ABCA1 gene as being key to this process of cholesterol efflux. As demonstrated in the graphic below, the ABCA1 gene mediates the transport of cholesterol from the peripheral tissue back to the liver via reverse cholesterol transport, thus ridding the body of excess cholesterol and increasing HDL levels.



Unmet Clinical Needs
The incidence of cardiovascular disease and associated mortality has climbed rapidly to emerge as the single largest killer in the U.S., accounting for approximately one million deaths annually. It is estimated that over 58 million Americans suffer from cardiovascular disease, and over 12 million suffer from coronary heart disease. However, despite its significant association with coronary artery disease, there are currently no drugs available that can significantly and reliably elevate low HDL concentrations in humans. Therefore, there is a significant opportunity for the development of a new HDL-cholesterol raising market through the introduction of a novel, efficacious HDL-elevating drug.

Program Status
Xenon’s HDL-cholesterol program focuses on the development of small molecule compounds that will raise HDL-cholesterol (or “good” cholesterol) in humans. While the gene has been validated as a drug target in both humans and animal models, Xenon illustrates in BAC transgenic mice, that over-expression of human ABCA1 protein results in a significant increase in cholesterol efflux in various tissues as well as a marked elevation in HDL-cholesterol levels. This important in vivo data provides further support that increased ABCA1 mediated efflux is associated with increased HDL levels, and protection against atherosclerosis.

 

[Warpath]

Where do you get this information?? This is totally incorrect...post some studies that validate this. Let me repeat, THERE IS NO PHARMACEUATICAL PILL OR SUPPLEMENT THAT RAISES HDL LEVELS. NONE!!! THERE ARE SOME IN CLINICAL TRIALS BUT THERE IS NOTHING BEING PRESCRIBED TO RAISE HDL LEVELS.

Trust me on this one, I know I am right on this one. Statins, ion-exchange resins and a drug called gemfibrozil will also raise HDL.

 

[Lateralus1]

Diet and the proper nutrition are the only things the will raise HDL. The is NO magic pill and Nicain certainly isn't one of them.

Do some research on Furazabol (Miotolan), then.

 

[Juice Authority]

Trust me on this one, I know I am right on this one. Statins, ion-exchange resins and a drug called gemfibrozil will also raise HDL.

Ok, I wil. Thanks.

 

[Anakin]

How suppressive is winstrol compared to dbol and anavar?

 

[Juice Authority]

How suppressive is winstrol compared to dbol and anavar?

It doesn't aromatize so it's not as suppressive to the HPTA but I would think D-bol is the most suppressive out of all the 17AA orals, given it's the strongest oral Androgen made mg for mg (even Anadrol). D-bol binds to the AR so if you're estrogen sensitive definitely take it with Nolva to prevent gyno. You can use Arimidex but it further mess up your lipid profiles whereas Nolva helps improve lipid profiles.

 

[DeepZenPill]

Personally I find winstrol to be a bit more suppressive than anavar. After 10 weeks of EQ I ran var at 50mg for 3 more weeks and my balls and sex drive were back to normal. After 3 weeks of winstrol my balls definitely shrink, but I still find it easy to recover from.

 

[Juice Authority]

Personally I find winstrol to be a bit more suppressive than anavar. After 10 weeks of EQ I ran var at 50mg for 3 more weeks and my balls and sex drive were back to normal. After 3 weeks of winstrol my balls definitely shrink, but I still find it easy to recover from.

I don't know about that. Heres a graph where 5 days of ox @ 15mgs a day significantly depressed htpa...


http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/8/2705/F3

 

[Warpath]

I took niacin till I was blue in the face and my hdl went from 33 to 35 within a few months.BFD

That might not sound like a lot, but your risk for cardiovascular related diseases decreases 2-3% for every point your HDL goes up. Plus LDL is what hurts you, the LDL particles transport cholesterol to periperal cells of the body, including cells of vascular endothelium (causing atheromatous change). Lowering LDL levels is as important as raising HDL>

 

[Laser0001]

That might not sound like a lot, but your risk for cardiovascular related diseases decreases 2-3% for every point your HDL goes up. Plus LDL is what hurts you, the LDL particles transport cholesterol to periperal cells of the body, including cells of vascular endothelium (causing atheromatous change). Lowering LDL levels is as important as raising HDL>

My LDL last check was 80

 

[Juice Authority]

My LDL last check was 80

That's excellent!! Were you taking anything to get your LDL levels down that low? Please inform!!!

 

[Laser0001]

Is it that great Im not sure. My total cholesteral is to low and that to could cause problems. The only thing I could contribute my low LDL is exercise and eating lots of oatmeal and green vegetables

 

[Juice Authority]

Is it that great Im not sure. My total cholesteral is to low and that to could cause problems. The only thing I could contribute my low LDL is exercise and eating lots of oatmeal and green vegetables

Funny, that's the exact same thing my nutritionist recommended to me. That and Flexseed and pumpkin seeds the flexseeds have to be put in a grinder and then you mixed that in with a protein shake.

 

[Anakin]

Apparently eating high fiber foods like oatmeal prevents the absorbtion of cholesterol.

I wonder if it prevents the proper absorbtion of nutrients that you actually want to absorb though?

 

[Juice Authority]

Apparently eating high fiber foods like oatmeal prevents the absorbtion of cholesterol.

I wonder if it prevents the proper absorbtion of nutrients that you actually want to absorb though?

That's what the professional nutrition’s say and this guy set every record for bench press for his weight class. He's 56 yrs old and is about 4%. It all diet baby. He's got me on his nutrition program after he looked at my blood tests and I will have them rechecked for progress in a couple of months. The program is intense and will require a lot of discipline. He also suggested staying on a low dose of Test (250mg's a week) for HRT purposes. For PCT I plan to us 20mg's of Nolva ed along with 25mg's of Proviron, HCG and Nelson Post cycle formula.

 

[DeepZenPill]

I don't know about that. Heres a graph where 5 days of ox @ 15mgs a day significantly depressed htpa...


http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/8/2705/F3

Yes, I've read plenty of studies concerning oxandrolone's HPTA suppression. A few of them contradict each other, but of course I would expect it to be suppressive.

But from my personal response, I maintain that I found ox to be less supressive than winstrol. I never said I wasn't suppressed. I'm young and healthy and bounce back pretty quickly from every cycle I've done.

 

[Juice Authority]

Yes, I've read plenty of studies concerning oxandrolone's HPTA suppression. A few of them contradict each other, but of course I would expect it to be suppressive.

But from my personal response, I maintain that I found ox to be less supressive than winstrol. I never said I wasn't suppressed. I'm young and healthy and bounce back pretty quickly from every cycle I've done.

Dude, I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just pointing out the facts.

 

[Juice Authority]

Up

 

[Stillgoing]

Good thread, thanks JA.

 

[FreakMonster]

Winstrol is a waste of time and money.