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Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
- Thread starter MattTheSkywalker
- Start date
Bahhh....
The fear of knowing it is all coming to an end on a pre programed date fear eclipses all that time sitting there.
The fear of knowing it is all coming to an end on a pre programed date fear eclipses all that time sitting there.
Steroid_Virgin
New member
The death penalty is just another way of curbing the poverty problem...
gettinlarger
New member
I'm not being a dick to anybody, but I just don't see how anyone thinks the death penalty is so bad. If someone rapes and murders someone, I don't think anything less than death is an acceptable punishment. Any crime as brutal as that should hold the same punishment. The world is overpopulated as it is. Let's decimate the population of killers in the world.
Just my 2 cents. I don't mean to offend anyone.
Just my 2 cents. I don't mean to offend anyone.
HappyScrappy
New member
I'm personally of the opinion that occasionally the US should bomb one of its prisons. or have the place suffer a tragic napalming accident.
that way I think people would be like, "fuck, that prison thing is a bit iffy. I mean it was bad before with the daily anal rape and the crappy living conditions, combined with the gangs and occasional stabbing. But what with the yearly random prison destruction that goes on here, quite frankly, I'm not sure I want to be in this prison system anymore."
I'm all about solving problems.
that way I think people would be like, "fuck, that prison thing is a bit iffy. I mean it was bad before with the daily anal rape and the crappy living conditions, combined with the gangs and occasional stabbing. But what with the yearly random prison destruction that goes on here, quite frankly, I'm not sure I want to be in this prison system anymore."
I'm all about solving problems.
havoc
Shaolin Ninja
No offense taken and no one thinks you are being a dick. If someone rapes, murders, whatever, killing the person does not make it right(2 wrongs don't make a right). No one or govt law should have the right to choose a person's death. And your "the world is overpopulated" comment does not apply, killing 200 inmates a day is not going to do one thing for the world population. peacegettinlarger said:
the nature boy
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
I'm all for the death penalty, but how do you feel about innocent people being put to death?
HappyScrappy
New member
Re: Re: Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
I'm all for innocent people being put to death. Except me. And my friends. And my family. And my coworkers. And the people at the places where I tend to eat a lot. And the workers at the place where I take my car. And any of the people that help maintain the roads that I drive on. And the people that make sure the servers that run the websites I use are working.
Other than that, kill them now.
Like a preventive measure.
There are plenty of people that don't agree with this method - but they are just ignoring the facts. Dead people don't commit crimes.
The Nature Boy said:
I'm all for innocent people being put to death. Except me. And my friends. And my family. And my coworkers. And the people at the places where I tend to eat a lot. And the workers at the place where I take my car. And any of the people that help maintain the roads that I drive on. And the people that make sure the servers that run the websites I use are working.
Other than that, kill them now.
Like a preventive measure.
There are plenty of people that don't agree with this method - but they are just ignoring the facts. Dead people don't commit crimes.
the nature boy
New member
Re: Re: Re: Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
well what about the A-Team. they were put on death row for a crime they didn't commit. Same thing with the Incredible Hulk. Please Mr McGee, don't make me angry. You woulnd't like me when I'm angry.
HappyScrappy said:
well what about the A-Team. they were put on death row for a crime they didn't commit. Same thing with the Incredible Hulk. Please Mr McGee, don't make me angry. You woulnd't like me when I'm angry.
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
You must not have seen the thirteen men on Dateline that had been released from death row in Illinois. Illinois has released more death row inmates than it has executed in the past decade. If you think innocent people don't get screwed in court then you're hopelessly naive. Our judicial system is nothing but a game of wins and losses for prosecutors and police. Look up a man named Fred Zain on Google. He was a state police chemist that convicted a bunch of people using lab results from tests that were either improperly performed or were not performed at all. There was another similar case where a police lab "scientist" was cooking up fake lab reports. I don't recall her name though.
HappyScrappy
New member
havoc said:
This is exactly why we need to attack Denmark today. They are bound to have at least a million people. Think of what a million people just breeding over there will do to our economy someday.
It isn't pretty.
nevertoobig
New member
havoc said:
My thoughts exactly.
Train Harder
New member
HappyScrappy said:
This sounds good to me. It's at least worth trying.
Re: Re: Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
I don't like it.
However, there are murder cases of absolute certainty of guilt. Let's apply the death penalty there.
Havoc,
The government is not choosing when a convicted murderer dies. The person who committed the crime made the choice.
The Nature Boy said:
I don't like it.
However, there are murder cases of absolute certainty of guilt. Let's apply the death penalty there.
Havoc,
The government is not choosing when a convicted murderer dies. The person who committed the crime made the choice.
ROLGOR
New member
I don't have a problem with executing murders, rapist and child molesters on a moral grounds. The problem comes from the fact that it cost so much. The cost of executing someone is hundreds of thousands of dollars. it is much cheaper to lock them up for life. As much as I hate to agree with nature boy on anything to do with politics look at how many people are being found innocent and released every year since DNA testing began. I don't like the idea of killing an innocent man. What pisses me off is early releases. You kill someone and your out in 15-20. lock them up for life...
look at how many people are being found innocent and released every year since DNA testing began. I don't like the idea of killing an innocent man. What pisses me off is early releases. You kill someone and your out in 15-20. lock them up for life...Steroid_Virgin
New member
Death Penalty = Good
W
Warik
Guest
havoc said:
The death penalty is not intended to discourage people from committing crimes, nor is it intended to punish them. The sole intention of the death penalty is to keep people safe from vile criminals.
A man is less of a threat in a box than in a cabinet - wouldn't you agree?
-Warik
FreakMonster
New member
If you think the Death Penalty in the US is bad then maybe you should try living in Saudi Arabia!!!
You are judged according to the Shâri'a, the holy law; in the holy month of Ramadan a traditional moratorium of executions is observed. Death penalty is comminated for sex crimes, homosexuality, drug crimes, sabotage, corruption, witchcraft, mastication of qat, production/distribution/assumption of alcohol. The execution are often after unfair trials, without any security. The defendants can also have no defender lawyer, and the confessions, even if they are taken with torture, are accepted like valid evidence and could also be the only evidence for the death sentence. Used methods are the beheading with a sharp sword for the men and the firing party for the women; the married women who are coulpable of adultery can also be stoned.
You are judged according to the Shâri'a, the holy law; in the holy month of Ramadan a traditional moratorium of executions is observed. Death penalty is comminated for sex crimes, homosexuality, drug crimes, sabotage, corruption, witchcraft, mastication of qat, production/distribution/assumption of alcohol. The execution are often after unfair trials, without any security. The defendants can also have no defender lawyer, and the confessions, even if they are taken with torture, are accepted like valid evidence and could also be the only evidence for the death sentence. Used methods are the beheading with a sharp sword for the men and the firing party for the women; the married women who are coulpable of adultery can also be stoned.
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the nature boy
New member
Re: Re: Re: Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
okay, but if you read what fast twitch fiber was talking about then it kind of clouds the whole thing
http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/illinois.executions.02/
Here you have 13 individuals, mostly minorities, put on death row for shit they didnt' do. They were basically framed by the police and the judicial system failed them. It took a law school professor and his students to get these 13 people out of death row. The system didn't get those people out of death row. There was one guy of those 13 that had a stay of execution, thats how close he came to dying.
Makes you wonder if this is happening in other states.
MattTheSkywalker said:
I don't like it.
However, there are murder cases of absolute certainty of guilt. Let's apply the death penalty there.
okay, but if you read what fast twitch fiber was talking about then it kind of clouds the whole thing
http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/illinois.executions.02/
Here you have 13 individuals, mostly minorities, put on death row for shit they didnt' do. They were basically framed by the police and the judicial system failed them. It took a law school professor and his students to get these 13 people out of death row. The system didn't get those people out of death row. There was one guy of those 13 that had a stay of execution, thats how close he came to dying.
Makes you wonder if this is happening in other states.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
I am sure it is happening in all 50 states and Puerto Rico, Guam and other US territories.
This is why I advocate a standard of "absolute certainty".
The Nature Boy said:
I am sure it is happening in all 50 states and Puerto Rico, Guam and other US territories.
This is why I advocate a standard of "absolute certainty".
the nature boy
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
what does absolute certainty mean? people are supposed to be guility without a shred of doubt, right?
MattTheSkywalker said:
what does absolute certainty mean? people are supposed to be guility without a shred of doubt, right?
Absolute certainty means absolute certainty.
I'll use two high profile cases to illustrate teh difference between reasonable doubt and absolute certainty:
1. the Danielle Van Dam murder - David Westerfield was just convicted of murder in the first degree with agravating circumstances. As we all know, this means that the jury determined he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt . Thast is the standard juries must use in criminal trials.
That does not mean absolute certainty. The defense had several arguments that they tried, but clearly they were not believed.
As much as I believe Westerfield is a sick fuck who killed a 7 year old girl, I would not vote death for him.
2. The Wendy's massacre in Queens NY. 7 employees were shot and (5 killed) during a robbery.
Videocameras captuered the two gunmen entering the restaurant, brandishing guns, demanding money. The two are then shown tying up all the employees. when one resists, he is shot in the head. After they are all tied, and bags placed over their heads, they are each shot in the head. Two survivied.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the guys apprehended are the guilty parties. Afet conviction, I would give them the death penalty.
1. is beyond a reasonable doubt
2. is absolute certainty.
I'll use two high profile cases to illustrate teh difference between reasonable doubt and absolute certainty:
1. the Danielle Van Dam murder - David Westerfield was just convicted of murder in the first degree with agravating circumstances. As we all know, this means that the jury determined he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt . Thast is the standard juries must use in criminal trials.
That does not mean absolute certainty. The defense had several arguments that they tried, but clearly they were not believed.
As much as I believe Westerfield is a sick fuck who killed a 7 year old girl, I would not vote death for him.
2. The Wendy's massacre in Queens NY. 7 employees were shot and (5 killed) during a robbery.
Videocameras captuered the two gunmen entering the restaurant, brandishing guns, demanding money. The two are then shown tying up all the employees. when one resists, he is shot in the head. After they are all tied, and bags placed over their heads, they are each shot in the head. Two survivied.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the guys apprehended are the guilty parties. Afet conviction, I would give them the death penalty.
1. is beyond a reasonable doubt
2. is absolute certainty.
aurelius said:
It absolutely does.
The example should demonstrate it.
havoc said:
People would argue we are now safe from, for example, Ted Bundy.
Since he was a prison escapee when he murdered his last victim in Tallahassee, imprisoning him lacked the keep the rest of us safe.
Death penatly is not a deterrrent to the intial crime. It is punishment for that crime, and a deterrent to another one. peace
havoc
Shaolin Ninja
What in the name of Herbert Hoover does that poop above prove, let me guess, you just threw your keyboard down on the floor, danced the cabbage patch on top of it and hit "submit reply", that has to be the only answer to such a horrific retort, you obviously want to squabble b. peaceMattTheSkywalker said:
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we MUST keep the death penalty!
Who determines absolute certainty? How about the same judges, prosecutors, and police that framed all of those innocent people in Illinois?
Face it, our legal system is too imperfect to have the ultimate penalty.
MattTheSkywalker said:
Who determines absolute certainty? How about the same judges, prosecutors, and police that framed all of those innocent people in Illinois?
Face it, our legal system is too imperfect to have the ultimate penalty.
havoc
Shaolin Ninja
None of these replies supporting the death penalty are fact, in fact, they are incorrect, the death penalty does nothing.spentagn said:
However, look at my replies, they can't be denied, if you do deny them, you are just attempting to fade the unfadable because I have hurt your internet feelings in the past, sucka duck. peace
F
Frackal
Guest
Gotta go with Matt on this one about absolute certainty...makes sense to me....Only I would say once convicted, execution takes place in less than a month....inject 'em with some potassium and be done with it.
Steroid_Virgin
New member
"An eye for an eye, Hey Mr. Walker sir? You fuck up my house I fuck up yours..." --What movie?
havoc
Shaolin Ninja
Spentagn, I was not resorting to a flame, I was joking with Matt, he know this, I have been debating this issue, the replies are incorrect thus far, nothing will or can prove this statement incorrect "the death penalty is worthless" "it does nothing" "its irrelevant as fuck".spentagn said:
Someone tell me what it does so I can shoot it down real quick like. peace
Oh, it does kill people.
havoc said:
Take it easy man. It's not personal. You're funny though. I thought the Ted Bundy example was pretty clear.
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
How many murderers actually escape prison and commit murder again?
Now compare that number to the number of innocent people being set free from death row. In the last 30 years I would guess that number is 87 to 1.
Now I believe 87 is the number of people that have been set free from death row since the Supreme Court re-instated the death penalty in the late 70's. If 87 have been set free odds are some innocent people have already been murdered by state governments. Could it be that our legal system is worse than Ted Bundy?
circusgirl
New member
#include <liberal pinko Euro-comment here>
BTW Warik, what if the cabinet is a display cabinet containing his ashes??????
BTW Warik, what if the cabinet is a display cabinet containing his ashes??????
Fast Twitch Fiber said:
Hence the absolute certainty standard.
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
You haven't explained who or how we are going to determine absolute certainty. You gave an example of a murder that was caught on tape. Will we only execute murderers that are filmed? Even if it is filmed, making a positive identification of the person in the tape could be a problem.
grafix-GNC
New member
eye for an eye.. tooth for a tooth... kill that motherfucker
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Robert Jan
New member
The judicial system should not be allowed to murder people because it is as corrupt, misleading and fucked up as shit.
ive seen it over and over from up close. $ rules once again.
ive seen it over and over from up close. $ rules once again.
Steroid_Virgin
New member
Robert Jan said:
Have we forgotten the golden rule??
He who has the gold, makes the rules...
Fast Twitch Fiber said:
How do we determine "beyond a reasonable doubt"? It's based on the judge's charge to the jury, then people have to deliberate based on the evidence presented. Do you think people are incapable of determining absolute certainty?
Things like video and DNA evidence have made it easier to identify people. I love it when DNA evidence frees someone wrongly convicted. I think they should get large cash awards.
Yes, the system has a lot of flaws. Innocent people go to jail, guilty people are acquitted. Unless you want chips implanted in your brain, it is the best system we are going to get. I don't like the chips idea.
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
Yes, these people are incapable of determining absolute certainty. People performing DNA tests make mistakes and sometimes tell outright lies (Fred Zain). Judges and police can be corrupt and juries easily fooled.
Fast Twitch Fiber said:
So how do you feel about teh current "reasonable doubt" standard?
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
Of course no legal system is perfect. The point is that if you kill people and then find out that they're innocent you can't make reparations. If they're in prison you can let them out.
Fast Twitch Fiber said:
I understand that point - it's valid.
But I think when we commit to life imprisonment, we soften the punishment. The convict doesn't have that fear of what is happening to him/her, or the utter lack of control of their own fate.
Convicted murderers should feel that, as their victims did. I'd support the DP given the absolute certainty standard. Thanks for your comments.
aurelius said:
I know. I leave the gap to be filled by the reader. Absolute certainty means there cannot be another explanantion for the event (crime).
the nature boy
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
did the videotape show their suspects faces? I'm not 100% certain from the info you've provided.
aurelius said:
D
dballer
Guest
The death penalty has been abused.
In this case.. I feel it is the only logical choice.
I have a friend on death row.. he is innocent.
In this case.. I feel it is the only logical choice.
I have a friend on death row.. he is innocent.
the nature boy
New member
TxArmyGuy said:
there is no way in hell that this is the case. capital punishment is not preventative. if it was true, then there wouldn't be so many people on death row in Texas, right?
The Nature Boy said:
Actually, yes. (This was a VERY high profile case in NY.)
As it turns out, not only were the videos conclusive, but the suspects were still wearing the same clothes when apprehended the following day.
One confessed to get life, the other will (likely) become NY's first death case in a long time.
TxArmyGuy said:
No...the DOP is not a deterrent - this is proven. It is punishment. However, they will not commit a second one.
PS welcome back. PM me.
the nature boy
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
well if the death penalty applied to such open and shut cases like this then there wouldn't be that many executions.
gettinlarger
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
Stupid plea bargain crap. They should still kill him. Won't his face be red!
The Nature Boy said:
And that is OK.
W
Warik
Guest
havoc said:
Oh really? Would you be so kind as to tell me the last time time Timothy McVeigh killed someone after his execution?
In fact, why don't you name ANY murderer who killed anyone after his execution.
People are safer from dead vile criminals than they are from imprisoned vile criminals. To say otherwise SCREAMS irrationality.
-Warik
big_bad_buff
New member
if your %100 sure they did the crime, kill em, no reason to waste jail space and are money.
The Nature Boy said:
Please show us evidence that punishments are solely for deterent effect. If I get a speeding ticket, and the fine is 150 dollars, that is not as effective as if I am locked in jail for 2 years, is it? We don't punish simply to deter, but as punishment for crimes commited and also based on the severity that society places on the crime.
What I am amazed about, is the lack of anger that communities and families have anymore over such horrendous crimes. Let the bastard out early on parole, if that were my family that he killed, I would pray for a early pardon, so that I may have the pleasure of justice. I would gladly sit before a jury of my peers over such issues.
But since we are not capable of thought anymore, we have idiots who think that killing murderers, rapists and pedophiles is no different than the crime they commited. Yet an unborn child is not worth shit, except maybe food for some Chinese.
the nature boy
New member
cockdezl said:
please show me where the death penalty deters crime? if it did, there would be no one on death row as I stated. That's all the proof I need.
The Nature Boy said:
PLEASE READ THE ABOVE POST. I DID NOT STATE THAT THE PURPOSE OF THE DEATH PENALTY WAS TO DETER CRIME. IT IS THE ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT FOR THE ULTIMATE CRIME.
If it never deterred one murder, I would care less, because as Warik alluded to, that person is now and forever unable to hurt society. The idea that it is a failed system, because it doesn't stop others from acting similarly, is shitty reasoning by anti-death penalty fanatics. Find a rational flaw and hammer it repeatedly as if it were the only factor.
the nature boy
New member
what does that have to do with what I said in reference to txarmyguy? he claimed that it might act as a deterrent.
the nature boy
New member
actually you quoted me first and that started this whole confusing thing between you and I on this thread.
huntmaster
New member
as a deterant: it is all in how quick it is carried out.
Matt--I agree 100%
i believe in the death penalty for justice.
Matt--I agree 100%
i believe in the death penalty for justice.
aurelius said:
What purpose does punishment serve at all? why imprison?
Steroid_Virgin
New member
we imprison because we want to get those homeless off the streets...
aurelius said:
I'm not a lawyer either, but I have 10 working for me.
You're right, there is always some sort of defense regarding state of mind, etc. Since we are not lawyers, there is little value in us dissecting the NY state penal code. It's online if you want to see it, I am sure.I picked this case for a reason. The defendants were prior employees of the restaurant, who knew where the safe was, what time they closed, how much staff would be there, where to find the plastic bags to put over the victims' heads, etc. This was all premeditated.
it is telling that the very liberal state of NY is in all likelihod going to execute this one of the defendants.
I think teh death penalty should be used sparingly. This is one example where it should be used, though.
aurelius said:
Well, I this is more of a social contract philosophical question.
The death penalty debate is one that is normally confined to the grounds that society does punish thiose who violate its laws.
if you go outside those parameters, than the death penalty is no different than a fine for speeding. Punishment is punishment, right?
But in the world I live in, the punishment question is asked and answered.
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
I think we should quit having trials. We can just torture suspected criminals until they confess. If they are innocent then God will give them the strength to withstand the torture without confessing.
I'm going to go thump my bible now.
I'm going to go thump my bible now.
aurelius said:
You asked roughly "why punish at all?"
I said that the "why punish question"? is more of a philosophical one, since society has accepted punishment already.
Within what society has accepted, there is some room to debate the death penalty. Since differnet countries, and different American states, have opposing viewpoints, it is a very pertinent issue.
Outside of what society has accepted, we can talk about the merits (or lack of merits) of punishment, but we might as well do so on Mars.
I will address punishment if you like but I wanted to be sure that was the direction you wanted the exchange to go.
aurelius said:
Sadly no. I will add it to the list.
I don't know a lot about the history of prisons. I know there were debtors prisons and the like. I suppose the modern justification for prison would be property rights and the like.
The obvious downside is you are removing a lot of people (potential contributors) from society, and utilizing even more to maintian this removal (imprisonment).
I personally think prison is a "feel good" solution. it adresses most people's need to look down on others.
manny78 said:
Try to separate your emoitons and feelings from the discussion.
Aurelius - you're right. Crime, enforcement, the drug war etc are all big business.
aurelius
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
You mean big big big business. Oh well, if my job depended on it I would probably start screaming about the lack of moral fiber in blacks today and how we just need to punish them with harsh and swift sentences to get back to the good old days where nothing bad ever happened.(if it meant securing my gov. dental plan)
In the end, what can you do?
Ever read the book "Attica" about the prison riots where the troopers were taken hostage? I went to school with the son of one of the troopers, and we have talked about it many times.
Also I have a good friend who does correctional duty in Oakland, CA.
I know what you mean. You're still relying on shock value and emotion to form an opinion.
Also I have a good friend who does correctional duty in Oakland, CA.
I know what you mean. You're still relying on shock value and emotion to form an opinion.
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