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Who has had formal Olympic lifting coaching?
- Thread starter nelmsjer
- Start date
silver_shadow
New member
oh well, i wish that was me... 
BiggT
New member
Well, kind of, sort of. I learned in high school through one of the football coaches who had played college ball, and he also had reps from the 'bigger, faster, stronger' program come in once or twice a year for a clinic.
And, there is a guy who owns a really small place, actually he owns a business that delivers those 5 gallon jugs of water, and in the back he's got a platform with the whole deal, Eleiko bars and bumpers, etc etc. It is about an hr drive from me, but it is worth it to go a half dozen times a year (if I competed in o-lifting, I'd go every day). The guy is in his mid-70's now, and weighs 160lbs, and I have seen him squat snatch pretty close to bodyweight....he is a great info. source. He still trains the press (not OHP, the old olympic press), lol.....he actually told me once that it is a shame for me that they got rid of the press, because I would have actually been good at something, lol.
Anyway, that's about the extent of my 'formal' training.
And, there is a guy who owns a really small place, actually he owns a business that delivers those 5 gallon jugs of water, and in the back he's got a platform with the whole deal, Eleiko bars and bumpers, etc etc. It is about an hr drive from me, but it is worth it to go a half dozen times a year (if I competed in o-lifting, I'd go every day). The guy is in his mid-70's now, and weighs 160lbs, and I have seen him squat snatch pretty close to bodyweight....he is a great info. source. He still trains the press (not OHP, the old olympic press), lol.....he actually told me once that it is a shame for me that they got rid of the press, because I would have actually been good at something, lol.
Anyway, that's about the extent of my 'formal' training.
nelmsjer
New member
Let's just go ahead and throw a few questions out there. I'm interested in hearing what those who have been formally trained have to say about learning the power clean early, before the full clean. I am already very aware (unfortunately) that it is best to learn the full clean before the power clean. I'm wondering how they correct any technique problems from learning out of order.
I'm getting to a point where I want to learn the full Olympic lifts. I need some coaching, but I won't have access until September, at the earliest. I also want to continue doing power cleans, though...as long as it doesn't mess up my ability down the road to be somewhat successful in the O lifts.
Deep, front squats are no problem... nor are the overhead squats... so I'm just wondering how much trouble I'll have if my technique is off, later.
I'm getting to a point where I want to learn the full Olympic lifts. I need some coaching, but I won't have access until September, at the earliest. I also want to continue doing power cleans, though...as long as it doesn't mess up my ability down the road to be somewhat successful in the O lifts.
Deep, front squats are no problem... nor are the overhead squats... so I'm just wondering how much trouble I'll have if my technique is off, later.
BiggT
New member
If you can properly rack the bar and do ass to the grass front squats......and if you understand that the catch for a power clean is a front squat above paralell, then you'll be fine.
The problem with learning the power version first is that people sometimes start jumping out to catch the bar, the feet should come apart, but it shouldn't look like you're doing jumping jacks. You should be able to do a front squat right from your catch on the power clean without any adjustment of the feet. People also do lots of half assed stuff with their rack that would never allow them to rack a squat clean.
Learning to squat clean first also teaches you to pull yourself under the bar FAST.
Reading through your journal, knowing your understanding and grasp of the lifts, and seeing the vids of your overhead squats, I don't think you'll have any problem doing the full squat versions of the lifts. I actually think with your athletic background, you'll be quite good at them.
The problem with learning the power version first is that people sometimes start jumping out to catch the bar, the feet should come apart, but it shouldn't look like you're doing jumping jacks. You should be able to do a front squat right from your catch on the power clean without any adjustment of the feet. People also do lots of half assed stuff with their rack that would never allow them to rack a squat clean.
Learning to squat clean first also teaches you to pull yourself under the bar FAST.
Reading through your journal, knowing your understanding and grasp of the lifts, and seeing the vids of your overhead squats, I don't think you'll have any problem doing the full squat versions of the lifts. I actually think with your athletic background, you'll be quite good at them.
nelmsjer
New member
To this point, I can honestly say that I could go into a front squat on my power cleans 95%+ of the time. So, that is great to hear.
It's interesting, because I feel like I can drop into a snatch more comfortably and quickly then a clean. Does that make any sense, or is there any reason behind it? Or is that one just in my head?
You are currently in first place for 1000 karma. (Obviously)
It's interesting, because I feel like I can drop into a snatch more comfortably and quickly then a clean. Does that make any sense, or is there any reason behind it? Or is that one just in my head?
You are currently in first place for 1000 karma. (Obviously)
BiggT
New member
The snatch is a much, much faster lift. Snatches look intimidating to a lot of people at first, and cleans have the reputation as being the easier to learn and teach, but in my experience, the snatch is more natural, because either you do it right, or it's a no-go.
With power cleans, you're probably using a light enough weight that you have no problem catching it high, thus when you rack it would feel like a big pain in the ass to do a front squat.....when you use a weight that you CAN'T catch high, you'll really adjust to pulling yourself under in a full front squat to catch.
With snatches, it's tougher to pull the bar high enough to power snatch, you are moving really fast, and it is natural that you want to just get under it and catch.....if that makes any sense....if not, I can try to put it into words better. The snatch is just a more fluid movement, in my opinion, and you're moving so fast, that the concept of pulling yourself under into a full overhead squat ingrains itself nicely.
With power cleans, you're probably using a light enough weight that you have no problem catching it high, thus when you rack it would feel like a big pain in the ass to do a front squat.....when you use a weight that you CAN'T catch high, you'll really adjust to pulling yourself under in a full front squat to catch.
With snatches, it's tougher to pull the bar high enough to power snatch, you are moving really fast, and it is natural that you want to just get under it and catch.....if that makes any sense....if not, I can try to put it into words better. The snatch is just a more fluid movement, in my opinion, and you're moving so fast, that the concept of pulling yourself under into a full overhead squat ingrains itself nicely.
anotherbutters
New member
You must spread k around before giving it to biggt because you just gave it to him 2 posts ago 
My training partner is from Russia and a former OLY lifter. He said that you must train every workout with a coach for at least a year before you can begin to have "technique".
Some friends here train with a Greek Olympic Coach (comes in from Greece) and he told them that at age 16...they are too old to ever be good at OLY lifting. I met the guy this morning and he was amazed to see someone my size and asked if I did Olympic Lifting. I told him that I try but that my technique is very bad. He asked how old I was and I told him 28. He said..."you are too old to be good" and walked away.
The kids that he trains spend 45 minutes to an hour every single session (very often every week) doing stretches and warm ups with the empty bar.
Some friends here train with a Greek Olympic Coach (comes in from Greece) and he told them that at age 16...they are too old to ever be good at OLY lifting. I met the guy this morning and he was amazed to see someone my size and asked if I did Olympic Lifting. I told him that I try but that my technique is very bad. He asked how old I was and I told him 28. He said..."you are too old to be good" and walked away.
The kids that he trains spend 45 minutes to an hour every single session (very often every week) doing stretches and warm ups with the empty bar.
BiggT
New member
Bfold, I agree with your training partner in terms of being a competitive lifter on a national level or higher.....'technique' at that level, however, is much different than having proficient enough 'technique' to get the benefit of the lift. I think the lifts are technically demanding, but they're not brain surgery, there are very complex fine points that must be mastered to compete at a high level, but I think most anybody can learn the lifts and get pretty decent at them and reap the benefits of them without long-term, intensive coaching. Will they compete in o-lifting at a high level? No.... Will they have proficient enough technique to safely progress and benefit from the lifts? Of course.
Most properly coached D 1 football players for example that have a top notch S and C staff to work with have great form "for a football player", but not for an olympic lifter.
All that said, there is a strength element, ever see Reza Zadeh's form, lol....all joking aside, I do agree with you and your training partner's assessment to be considered really good in the sport itself, I just think they can be done proficient enough for other athletes to benefit from without much intensive, long-term coaching.
Most properly coached D 1 football players for example that have a top notch S and C staff to work with have great form "for a football player", but not for an olympic lifter.
All that said, there is a strength element, ever see Reza Zadeh's form, lol....all joking aside, I do agree with you and your training partner's assessment to be considered really good in the sport itself, I just think they can be done proficient enough for other athletes to benefit from without much intensive, long-term coaching.
Protobuilder
New member
There go my Olympic hopes. I'm almost 30.
glennpendlay
New member
It is much better, IMO, to start with the complete lift. However, if you have been powercleaning, there is no reason to not start right now, and ride all your cleans down to the bottom.
a couple of things "powercleaners" normally do wrong... like catching with the elbows down, leaning back to catch, jumping the feet out too wide, all will keep you from immedietly dropping into a front squat. these are all hard habits to break... every powerclean you do where you would have to "re-adjust" something, get your balance, move your feet, etc, before dropping into a squat is "bad" and teaching you to do things wrong and adding to bad habits. on the other hand, if your catching in good enough position that as soon as the br touches your shoulders you can immedietly drop into a front squat without repositioning anything, then your probably doing ok.
just try to do that... if nothing else, its a little extra work for the legs! and you will be on your way, if your reasonably athletic, just doing this might have you doing decent full cleans before you even formally try to "learn" the full clean.
and by the way... i have had some OL coaching, and even done some OL coaching myself! ive taught a number of former "powercleaners" to do the full lifts, and even had some of them do quite well in OLing. its not really rocket science, more just being stubborn enough to make yourself do it right time after time and not get lazy and cut corners.
a couple of things "powercleaners" normally do wrong... like catching with the elbows down, leaning back to catch, jumping the feet out too wide, all will keep you from immedietly dropping into a front squat. these are all hard habits to break... every powerclean you do where you would have to "re-adjust" something, get your balance, move your feet, etc, before dropping into a squat is "bad" and teaching you to do things wrong and adding to bad habits. on the other hand, if your catching in good enough position that as soon as the br touches your shoulders you can immedietly drop into a front squat without repositioning anything, then your probably doing ok.
just try to do that... if nothing else, its a little extra work for the legs! and you will be on your way, if your reasonably athletic, just doing this might have you doing decent full cleans before you even formally try to "learn" the full clean.
and by the way... i have had some OL coaching, and even done some OL coaching myself! ive taught a number of former "powercleaners" to do the full lifts, and even had some of them do quite well in OLing. its not really rocket science, more just being stubborn enough to make yourself do it right time after time and not get lazy and cut corners.
BiggT
New member
Actually, I think Shane Hamman started olympic lifting later in life, he isn't a normal human though, lol.
I also think (I could be wrong) that Ken Patera never had much formal coaching. Again, a big, big exception here as Patera is probably one of the strongest humans who ever breathed and a superb athlete to boot.
I also think (I could be wrong) that Ken Patera never had much formal coaching. Again, a big, big exception here as Patera is probably one of the strongest humans who ever breathed and a superb athlete to boot.
super_rice
New member
I think the point of starting people younger is that they are more able to react naturally to the bar. I'm not very old myself so I can't speak from experience about you old buggers learning the lifts, but definately, an athletic background is a must. I've heard that wrestlers make very good olympic lifters - great work ethic, ability to handle volume, very explosive, great coordination.
Anyway if you start from a young age, I'd also imagine by the time you hit puberty and are able to hit truly heavy weights, you'd have the background and the technique.
Personally, I am much worse at C&J than I am at the snatch. I attribute this to simply being weak, as a certain level of strength is needed to stand up from cleans, etc. I am able to clean 115kg pretty much any time of the day, but can't stand up with it. Two days ago, I snatched 100kg@80. So my full snatch is 10kg away from my best C&J (110).
I guess it boils down to being stronger than you are fast or faster than you are strong, then working on either of those aspects from there.
learning the lifts, but definately, an athletic background is a must. I've heard that wrestlers make very good olympic lifters - great work ethic, ability to handle volume, very explosive, great coordination.Anyway if you start from a young age, I'd also imagine by the time you hit puberty and are able to hit truly heavy weights, you'd have the background and the technique.
Personally, I am much worse at C&J than I am at the snatch. I attribute this to simply being weak, as a certain level of strength is needed to stand up from cleans, etc. I am able to clean 115kg pretty much any time of the day, but can't stand up with it. Two days ago, I snatched 100kg@80. So my full snatch is 10kg away from my best C&J (110).
I guess it boils down to being stronger than you are fast or faster than you are strong, then working on either of those aspects from there.
Protobuilder
New member
Just checked my pdf from Dan John, and he pretty much said what Glenn said. Start w/ the full versions.
The whole pdf is amazing, IMO. http://www.danjohn.org/bp.pdf
The whole pdf is amazing, IMO. http://www.danjohn.org/bp.pdf
glennpendlay
New member
protobuilder, i started training for OL at age 29, and snatched 170kg (374lbs) and cleaned 210kg (463lbs) by age 32 or 33... no not olympic material, but not so bad for an old guy here in the USA. so its possible to do fairly well even starting late in life. also as someone else said, shane started at age 26, and he did ok, didnt he? even more inspirational, tara cunningham started in her late 20's and ended up with an olympic gold medal!!! of course she had done gymnastics and soccer before, so she wasnt starting as a couch potatoe... but she started late and reached the absolutely highest level... its not ideal, BUT it can be done, has been done.
Protobuilder said:
Protobuilder
New member
Like a true coach, you're teaching and inspiring at the same time, Glenn.
I was kidding more than anything (perpetual smartass). I don't think age is my biggest obstacle when my max back squat is 210 (after a year of hard work). LoL
I was kidding more than anything (perpetual smartass). I don't think age is my biggest obstacle when my max back squat is 210 (after a year of hard work). LoL
C
curgeo
Guest
Glenn, I make it a point to read each and every one of your posts. I really appreciate your input on this forum.
Guinness5.0
New member
secondedcurgeo said:
Plus I got my Oly shoes from ya
s8nlilhlpr
Banned
Damn, I never even realized my feet were going way too wide. I'm gonna have to work on my form even more, thanks for pointing out the newbie mistakes!!! so after the jump, when you push down into the catch position, your feet should stay the same width as for the squat. Makes sense now that I think about it, it was probably just easier to push my legs apart than to squat down. I'll make sure I practice the full clean/snatch until I can do it close enough to perfect.
glennpendlay said:
I TRY the OLY lifts several times a week. Good way for me to increase the volume on several body parts without stressing the CNS too much.
The coach may have been looking at me thinking that I was a giant (I am compared to him and everyone he has ever coached) with huge muscles (again, compared to him and most OLY lifters) and then assumed that I had no "athletic" ability at all.
nelmsjer
New member
Wow... Glenn has spoken. Glenn, thank you so much for dropping by.
So, I'm in the middle of the SF 5x5, and I'm already grinding out squats at 365 (Monday's 5 rep). My triple tomorrow is scheduled to be at 373. On Mondays and Fridays I do Squat, Bench, and Power Cleans. Is switching to Full Cleans going to give too much stress to my legs...so much that they won't recover properly?
Also, on the warmup sets, would I provide just enough power to catch near/in the bottom position, or do I do a power clean and immediately drop into the squat? Like I've mentioned, I can drop into a front squat on 95+% of my power cleans.
Here's the deal: unless I get convinced otherwise, I'll just start doing full cleans. I would appreciate any clarification on how to handle the warmup sets, though.
Wow...thanks again, and I'm looking forward to more discussion.
So, I'm in the middle of the SF 5x5, and I'm already grinding out squats at 365 (Monday's 5 rep). My triple tomorrow is scheduled to be at 373. On Mondays and Fridays I do Squat, Bench, and Power Cleans. Is switching to Full Cleans going to give too much stress to my legs...so much that they won't recover properly?
Also, on the warmup sets, would I provide just enough power to catch near/in the bottom position, or do I do a power clean and immediately drop into the squat? Like I've mentioned, I can drop into a front squat on 95+% of my power cleans.
Here's the deal: unless I get convinced otherwise, I'll just start doing full cleans. I would appreciate any clarification on how to handle the warmup sets, though.
Wow...thanks again, and I'm looking forward to more discussion.
BiggT
New member
I would advise to do everything, whether it be a warm-up with 135 or a work set with 300, to be done at full blast. When squat cleaning, I pull the bar to waist level, then pull myself under it and whip my elbows around. I never pull 'just enough', I always pull 135 as fast and explosively as I pull 300, it just sets the right tone. Plus, I find that pulling lighter weights 'just hard enough' can cause problems in the work sets at times because you're not in the habbit of pulling as hard as possible.
As far as actual warm-ups, there is really no right or wrong way to do them, do what works for you.....When squat cleaning, I warm-up by pulling 3 doubles with 135 on a power clean, then I power clean 135 and do 10 front squats, then i just squat clean singles up to my working sets, or sometimes i just keep doing singles until I am done.
With the workload, of course the squat clean will add to your squatting volume/workload, you just need to take it into account.
This is how I feel and what I do, I'd love to hear Glen's take on it though.
As far as actual warm-ups, there is really no right or wrong way to do them, do what works for you.....When squat cleaning, I warm-up by pulling 3 doubles with 135 on a power clean, then I power clean 135 and do 10 front squats, then i just squat clean singles up to my working sets, or sometimes i just keep doing singles until I am done.
With the workload, of course the squat clean will add to your squatting volume/workload, you just need to take it into account.
This is how I feel and what I do, I'd love to hear Glen's take on it though.
nelmsjer
New member
I hear what you're saying, BiggT, but it seems physically impossible to pull as hard with the 135 into a squat clean as you would with 300. With the other lifts (squat, bench, press, etc.) that don't require you to get under the bar in a specific position, it makes sense. But...if I pull a 135 squat clean with the same force as a 300 (to use your reference, since I can't do that), I'm going to end up snatching it!!!
I hope I'm making sense. Help me understand where I'm falling short of my reasoning.
I hope I'm making sense. Help me understand where I'm falling short of my reasoning.
BiggT
New member
On the last phase of the pull, you'd want to jump shrug as hard as possible, don't pull with the arms ever, and let the momentum carry the bar to about the waistline, then imagine the bar suspended in mid-air at the waistline and pull your body underneath as fast as possible while you whip the elbows around. Just accept that you'll catch in the full front squat position and don't worry too much about it. On the lighter weights, it is common to catch them a little high, but just ride it down into a full front squat.
Protobuilder
New member
Maybe you'll just be catching it higher than the 300, and then sinking into the squat from a higher position?
BiggT
New member
Protobuilder said:
That's exactly right. When learning to squat clean, of course you'll be using weights you could just as easily power clean, and you'll probably be catching them high enough to rack them without front squatting fully, but just ride them down to ingrain the movement because there will come a point, weight-wise, that you HAVE to catch at the lowest point possible to be able to rack the weight.
thedon_83
New member
A good exercise to learn the bottom position catch for the full clean is to take the bar (empty at first, it only needs to be done lightly to start) with a clean grip and let the bar hang with your arms, stand on your toes and with your shoulders shrugged, (basically the end position for a heavy pull) and drop into the bottom catch position as fast as you can without the bar moving.
Add small weights as you get better if you feel necessary
Others may disagree with this method but I learnt this way and it serves me well
Add small weights as you get better if you feel necessary
Others may disagree with this method but I learnt this way and it serves me well
Protobuilder
New member
Isn't it funny that no matter how sophisticated human life on earth becomes, the thought of achieving an award of any sort (here, karma) motivates us? LoL
Now back to cleaning . . .
I like thedon's idea, but I can't help but think those type of rapid drops, even unweighted, have to be hard on the knees. I know you use the glutes to some extent, but still. Any thoughts on this?
Now back to cleaning . . .
I like thedon's idea, but I can't help but think those type of rapid drops, even unweighted, have to be hard on the knees. I know you use the glutes to some extent, but still. Any thoughts on this?
thedon_83
New member
Protobuilder said:
I see your concern bro, but I use thermal kee pads, OLY lifting is a little stressful on the knees anyway but this exercise is very light and easy to perform and it teaches very good positioning, you would be suprised at how effective it carries
To answer an earlier point in this thread about warming I normally work up doing 2 power 2 squat when the weight is light, and lower the reps as the weight gets heavier until I am doing only 1 or 2 full squat C&J's
The weight increase you go up in depends what your max is really
super_rice
New member
Yes, I believe that is the best way to learn to drive underneath the bar to catch it. I learned like that too, and have never really had any problems in the bottom position.
It's still good to use these days for warmups, very important to "get a feel" for the bottom position.
It's still good to use these days for warmups, very important to "get a feel" for the bottom position.
nelmsjer
New member
A copy from today's journal, to seek comments on the "regrab"...
Full Clean: 105/135/160/220 - PR - Full cleans were nice and a lot easier than the power cleans. No issues with form or awkwardness. I can't say for sure whether my technique is right, but all I know is that I catch in the deep squat on my shoulders with my elbows up. I tried to "bump" the weight to reposition my hands for a Jerk at the end and lost it (never really done it before with only 3 fingers on the bar to a full grab with that weight). I will definitely just start doing full squat cleans from now on. The deep front squat at the bottom is SOLID and I really like how it feels.
Full Clean: 105/135/160/220 - PR - Full cleans were nice and a lot easier than the power cleans. No issues with form or awkwardness. I can't say for sure whether my technique is right, but all I know is that I catch in the deep squat on my shoulders with my elbows up. I tried to "bump" the weight to reposition my hands for a Jerk at the end and lost it (never really done it before with only 3 fingers on the bar to a full grab with that weight). I will definitely just start doing full squat cleans from now on. The deep front squat at the bottom is SOLID and I really like how it feels.
super_rice
New member
Post a video.
Also are you using a hook grip? It's worth learning..
Also are you using a hook grip? It's worth learning..
glennpendlay
New member
the clean and snatch are really tempo exercises... when you get the feel of the rythm of the lift, they seem so easy, untill you do it seems like you are fighting against yourself!
even when i was cleaning 450+lbs, i had no problem doing a full squat clean with 135lbs... just pop at the top of the pull and stomp down under the weight... sure, the bar contacts your shoulders somewhere above absolute bottom, but remember, your NOT pulling the bar to your shoulders and then dropping... whether your doing a powerclean or a squat clean, you are popping the hips and then dropping under... even on a powerclean you are already dropping as the bar is coming up!
It CAN pay off to practice with an empty bar, as someone has already suggested i think. you ought to be able to stand there with an empty bar and just pop the shoulders and stomp down under that bar, catching it near bottom...
its not really a question of pulling harder or not with different weights, its about finding the speed and tempo that is right, then adhering to that speed and tempo and rythm of the lift no matter what weight is on the bar. i think its a really good drill for all lifters, elite or beginner, to take light weights, empty bar, 50kilos, 70kilos, whatever, and try to do the lifts to look just like a max weight attempt. shankle is training for pan-ams right now, he is snatching around 375lbs and cleaning around 450lbs... and last week we spent a practice with snatch weights around 50k and 70k, doing full squat snatches just like the max attempts... just pop the bar at the top and hit the deck... we did that for a while, then went up to 130k for 3 snatches, then 140k for 3 snatches, and ill tell you, without seeing the bar, the snatches with 140 would have looked exactly like the ones with 50k. exactly. just pop the bar and under.
i think this is where people get into trouble doing the olympic lifts... they think of them like a squat or bench press... they think of pulling that bar up. try thinking of the lifts like a movement, a movement with a specific tempo and speed. your just doing the movement. i tell my lifters all the time to not think about pulling that bar overhead, to not think about it at all, i say "you know what the movement is supposed to feel like, the speed the tempo, the correct positions... have the balls to just do the movement without worrying about the bar, and trust that the bar will be where you want it to be at the end". that in my opinion is the best way to approach it mentally... just do the movement and have a certain degree of trust that everything will be where it is supposed to be at the end.
even when i was cleaning 450+lbs, i had no problem doing a full squat clean with 135lbs... just pop at the top of the pull and stomp down under the weight... sure, the bar contacts your shoulders somewhere above absolute bottom, but remember, your NOT pulling the bar to your shoulders and then dropping... whether your doing a powerclean or a squat clean, you are popping the hips and then dropping under... even on a powerclean you are already dropping as the bar is coming up!
It CAN pay off to practice with an empty bar, as someone has already suggested i think. you ought to be able to stand there with an empty bar and just pop the shoulders and stomp down under that bar, catching it near bottom...
its not really a question of pulling harder or not with different weights, its about finding the speed and tempo that is right, then adhering to that speed and tempo and rythm of the lift no matter what weight is on the bar. i think its a really good drill for all lifters, elite or beginner, to take light weights, empty bar, 50kilos, 70kilos, whatever, and try to do the lifts to look just like a max weight attempt. shankle is training for pan-ams right now, he is snatching around 375lbs and cleaning around 450lbs... and last week we spent a practice with snatch weights around 50k and 70k, doing full squat snatches just like the max attempts... just pop the bar at the top and hit the deck... we did that for a while, then went up to 130k for 3 snatches, then 140k for 3 snatches, and ill tell you, without seeing the bar, the snatches with 140 would have looked exactly like the ones with 50k. exactly. just pop the bar and under.
i think this is where people get into trouble doing the olympic lifts... they think of them like a squat or bench press... they think of pulling that bar up. try thinking of the lifts like a movement, a movement with a specific tempo and speed. your just doing the movement. i tell my lifters all the time to not think about pulling that bar overhead, to not think about it at all, i say "you know what the movement is supposed to feel like, the speed the tempo, the correct positions... have the balls to just do the movement without worrying about the bar, and trust that the bar will be where you want it to be at the end". that in my opinion is the best way to approach it mentally... just do the movement and have a certain degree of trust that everything will be where it is supposed to be at the end.
BiggT
New member
glennpendlay said:
That is an excellent bit of advice....it is so true....Glenn, if my front squats are going well and I feel strong on them, I have the confidence to just sort of shut up and do the lift, if I have been feeling not so hot with the front or overhead squat, then my confidence to do the lifts goes and I 'think' too much......is that normal or something you see in the lifters you coach??
I have heard from people, and I even know Alexeev used to say this a lot, that you don't really need to be squatting much more than your best C and J in training, but for me, knowing I can squat my best C and J with ease makes me more confident on the lift. I guess, also, I was wondering your thoughts on if you think it is productive or necessary to push the squats real hard when training the olympic lifts.
nelmsjer
New member
BiggT said:
First, Glenn, thanks again for your time. That puts an entirely new perspective on the lift, to simply think of it as a motion, with a constant speed and tempo.
BiggT, the bolded portion is an EXCELLENT question that I would also like clarified...
Thanks to both of you.
glennpendlay
New member
BiggT,
you can never be too strong! after all, strength is what lifting weights is all about... so yeah, i would say that one should always try to maximize squat strength.
having said that, if you are an actual OLer, and not just doing the lifts as part of a general training program, you SHOULD do a certain amount of your squats with weights that are near your clean and jerk. its like "practicing" the tempo of the lifts. your bouncing in and out of the hole just like you would with a max clean, managing the bar whip just like on a clean, etc.
if you do ALL your squats super heavy, slow, grinding... then you start to move like that all the time. the trick is, to get strong sure, but also to teach your body to move, really move, with the weight that you can clean and jerk and snatch. so lets say you are a 275kg squatter, and can clean and jerk 200k... sure, there is a time and place in the training cycle for heavy sets of 5 with 240k, for heavy doubles and singles near 275k, trying to make that 275k squat into a 280k squat. but there is also a time and place for a lot of fast doubles and triples with 200-210k, moving at the same speed and tempo as you would if you were clean and jerking. OLing is about moving, and moving fast. you have to train for that. and JUST heavy weights wont do it.
and one further thing, about your mention of alexiev. no one really knows how he trained for his whole career. sure, there are months of training that have been published, specifically the training cycles he himself published for his masters degree (which i have). but there is also a lot of mystery... and there is no doubt that many of the things he said and did were not completely true or were designed to amuse people or throw people off and not neccessarily representative of his actuall training.... like the famous pics of him doing pulls in the river in water up to his waist.
since i have trained in russia, have spoken directly to many about his training that actually witnessed him train, and have spoken at length to medvedev who was a soviet lifter before alexiev and a coach during his lifting career... i would probably have had a better opportunity to uncover the "truth" about his training than most, and to be honest, i cant come close to untangling fact from legend.
some of the things i think one can say about alexiev with some certainty are, that he did higher reps than most do now in training, he did a lot of direct back work (hypers) and more assistance work in general than most, during his prime he didnt lift max weights in the gym much. he also employed some types of isometric exercises, which i dont think are done much today. he was also very, very strong. even if he didnt do a lot of heavy squats, he certainly was CAPABLE of squatting big weights. he may have done lots of heavy squatting at one point in his career, and just not needed to do them anymore by the time he got to his peak.
taranenko stopped doing front squats at his peak... he had front squatted 660lbs for an easy triple, and just decided he was plenty strong on that exercise at that point and didnt need to do it anymore. that didnt mean that front squats were not neccessary, just that they werent neccessary for him at that point. i did a similar thing (lower weights of course)... i had front squatted 550lbs for a very easy set of 5 when i was only jerking 453lbs out of the rack. i quit front squats. what was the point? they were using up my recovery ability, and i was never going to need to stand up with 500+lbs in competition considering my embarrassingly weak jerk. so i quit front squatting and spent more time working on my jerk... which never got any better anyway, but still, i think the reasoning was sound.
when you hear about what foriegn lifters doing, sometimes its a case of a little knowledge being dangerious. you rarely get the whole story. sometimes the little bit of it you do get is not just meaningless, but actually misleading, when you dont have the whole context.
you can never be too strong! after all, strength is what lifting weights is all about... so yeah, i would say that one should always try to maximize squat strength.
having said that, if you are an actual OLer, and not just doing the lifts as part of a general training program, you SHOULD do a certain amount of your squats with weights that are near your clean and jerk. its like "practicing" the tempo of the lifts. your bouncing in and out of the hole just like you would with a max clean, managing the bar whip just like on a clean, etc.
if you do ALL your squats super heavy, slow, grinding... then you start to move like that all the time. the trick is, to get strong sure, but also to teach your body to move, really move, with the weight that you can clean and jerk and snatch. so lets say you are a 275kg squatter, and can clean and jerk 200k... sure, there is a time and place in the training cycle for heavy sets of 5 with 240k, for heavy doubles and singles near 275k, trying to make that 275k squat into a 280k squat. but there is also a time and place for a lot of fast doubles and triples with 200-210k, moving at the same speed and tempo as you would if you were clean and jerking. OLing is about moving, and moving fast. you have to train for that. and JUST heavy weights wont do it.
and one further thing, about your mention of alexiev. no one really knows how he trained for his whole career. sure, there are months of training that have been published, specifically the training cycles he himself published for his masters degree (which i have). but there is also a lot of mystery... and there is no doubt that many of the things he said and did were not completely true or were designed to amuse people or throw people off and not neccessarily representative of his actuall training.... like the famous pics of him doing pulls in the river in water up to his waist.
since i have trained in russia, have spoken directly to many about his training that actually witnessed him train, and have spoken at length to medvedev who was a soviet lifter before alexiev and a coach during his lifting career... i would probably have had a better opportunity to uncover the "truth" about his training than most, and to be honest, i cant come close to untangling fact from legend.
some of the things i think one can say about alexiev with some certainty are, that he did higher reps than most do now in training, he did a lot of direct back work (hypers) and more assistance work in general than most, during his prime he didnt lift max weights in the gym much. he also employed some types of isometric exercises, which i dont think are done much today. he was also very, very strong. even if he didnt do a lot of heavy squats, he certainly was CAPABLE of squatting big weights. he may have done lots of heavy squatting at one point in his career, and just not needed to do them anymore by the time he got to his peak.
taranenko stopped doing front squats at his peak... he had front squatted 660lbs for an easy triple, and just decided he was plenty strong on that exercise at that point and didnt need to do it anymore. that didnt mean that front squats were not neccessary, just that they werent neccessary for him at that point. i did a similar thing (lower weights of course)... i had front squatted 550lbs for a very easy set of 5 when i was only jerking 453lbs out of the rack. i quit front squats. what was the point? they were using up my recovery ability, and i was never going to need to stand up with 500+lbs in competition considering my embarrassingly weak jerk. so i quit front squatting and spent more time working on my jerk... which never got any better anyway, but still, i think the reasoning was sound.
when you hear about what foriegn lifters doing, sometimes its a case of a little knowledge being dangerious. you rarely get the whole story. sometimes the little bit of it you do get is not just meaningless, but actually misleading, when you dont have the whole context.
nelmsjer said:
Glenn:
I was doing some front squats the other week and I was doing them intentionally slow to make the weight feel harder (rarely ever do this) for a training variation and my Russian training partner nearly had a cow. Said to never do it slow. Because of the language issues we could never come to agreement as to why...but your post sure does make a lot of sense.
Most everything that I'm picking up that can imitate the position of a front squat has a max weight of upper 3's...and most of my front squatting days work up to reps with 140 kilos or singles near 170 kilos.
I was doing some front squats the other week and I was doing them intentionally slow to make the weight feel harder (rarely ever do this) for a training variation and my Russian training partner nearly had a cow. Said to never do it slow. Because of the language issues we could never come to agreement as to why...but your post sure does make a lot of sense.
Most everything that I'm picking up that can imitate the position of a front squat has a max weight of upper 3's...and most of my front squatting days work up to reps with 140 kilos or singles near 170 kilos.
glennpendlay
New member
well... i wouldnt agree that you should NEVER do anything slow. i think a very valuable exercise for weightlifters and even other athletes is pulls with isometric stops... in other words do a clean pull, but stop at the knee, hold the position for a 5 count, then finish the pull explosively... its damn hard to hold back position when you do this. though im far from any sort of expert on strongman training... having done these and having watched strongman events and even loaded a few stones myself, i would think that this sort of pull with a "slow" component would carry over to strongman training better than regular pulls.
one thing that i think is often forgotten when training for specific events or types of performance, is that speed of movement is just about the most specific thing about training... in other words, when you get stronger from training, you get stronger at the speed of movement that you train at, and not neccessarily at faster speeds or much slower speeds... although there is more carryover from fast to slow than from slow to fast.
this gets a little complicated... because for almost every exercise there is an isometric component and a concentric component... for example, even on an explosive clean pull, for much of the pull the back is just in isometric contraction, while the hips, hams, thighs are contracting... but still, you get the biggest bang for your training buck when you train at the speed you compete.
one good example of this sort of thing would be the military press/bencher vs the guy who can push press like crazy. ive seen a lot of people who had all sorts of muscles, who i think could have moved more weight than me in many "slow" upper body exercises, all the way from bench press to tricep extensions... yet they cant do something with just a little speed/explosive component like the push press for shit. i push pressed 440lbs, a lot more than some guys who i know damn well had more muscle and "slow strength" than me, but when they got that bar moving with the legs, they just couldnt coordinate and push, just couldnt apply any force to the bar with the arms in time to keep it moving. i was never the greatest bench presser, but boy given the opportunity to put some speed on the bar, i sure could put some force into it. not because im anything special, but just because i trained like that, always fast and always explosive. thats one of the reasons why i think the push press is such a good indicator of upper body usable strength... youve got to have the strength sure, but more important youve got to be able to apply force quickly, very quickly and to a bar moving initially much faster than something like a bench press or military press. in my opinion, speed is where its at... if your training for sports, any sport really, its speed that kills. strength is good, but strength that can be applied FAST is where its really at.
one thing that i think is often forgotten when training for specific events or types of performance, is that speed of movement is just about the most specific thing about training... in other words, when you get stronger from training, you get stronger at the speed of movement that you train at, and not neccessarily at faster speeds or much slower speeds... although there is more carryover from fast to slow than from slow to fast.
this gets a little complicated... because for almost every exercise there is an isometric component and a concentric component... for example, even on an explosive clean pull, for much of the pull the back is just in isometric contraction, while the hips, hams, thighs are contracting... but still, you get the biggest bang for your training buck when you train at the speed you compete.
one good example of this sort of thing would be the military press/bencher vs the guy who can push press like crazy. ive seen a lot of people who had all sorts of muscles, who i think could have moved more weight than me in many "slow" upper body exercises, all the way from bench press to tricep extensions... yet they cant do something with just a little speed/explosive component like the push press for shit. i push pressed 440lbs, a lot more than some guys who i know damn well had more muscle and "slow strength" than me, but when they got that bar moving with the legs, they just couldnt coordinate and push, just couldnt apply any force to the bar with the arms in time to keep it moving. i was never the greatest bench presser, but boy given the opportunity to put some speed on the bar, i sure could put some force into it. not because im anything special, but just because i trained like that, always fast and always explosive. thats one of the reasons why i think the push press is such a good indicator of upper body usable strength... youve got to have the strength sure, but more important youve got to be able to apply force quickly, very quickly and to a bar moving initially much faster than something like a bench press or military press. in my opinion, speed is where its at... if your training for sports, any sport really, its speed that kills. strength is good, but strength that can be applied FAST is where its really at.
b fold the truth said:
I gotcha...
Sergei does a lot of things in his training like static deads and squats.
Take 10 seconds to pull the weight to lockout...then down fast.
Take the squat 1/2 way down to "depth", stop and hold for 5 seconds, all the way down and back up.
He has all kinds of things like that in his training.
Squats, Benches, and Pulls 4-6x a week. Told me that he believed that if you wanted to be strong...you had to be strong in every stance and method. He squats OLY, box, wide, bb'er, paused, etc... Same with the pulls and bench. Partials as well.
Sergei does a lot of things in his training like static deads and squats.
Take 10 seconds to pull the weight to lockout...then down fast.
Take the squat 1/2 way down to "depth", stop and hold for 5 seconds, all the way down and back up.
He has all kinds of things like that in his training.
Squats, Benches, and Pulls 4-6x a week. Told me that he believed that if you wanted to be strong...you had to be strong in every stance and method. He squats OLY, box, wide, bb'er, paused, etc... Same with the pulls and bench. Partials as well.
Protobuilder
New member
Glenn P said:
That's instructive, and timely for me. I'm new to any type of 'explosive' movement and am working w/ the push press this cycle. It's a whole diff't animal trying to coordinate the muscle and explode the bar upwards than it is to get set and apply long, slow pressure. Good stuff.
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