Which is better? Option #1 or #2?

[tranx90210]

Hey everyone,

I am looking to do a new cycle to cut fat, increase strength, and gain quality muscle.

Which option do you think is better? Primobolan or Masteron?

Option #1:
Weeks 1-10: Sustanon 200mg/week
Weeks 1-8: Primobolan 400mg/week
Weeks 1-10: Anavar 40mg/day
Weeks 4-8 or 6-10: Winstrol 50mg/day
Week 12: PCT + Clen

Option #2:
Weeks 1-10: Sustanon 200mg/week
Weeks 1-10: Masteron 500mg/week
Weeks 1-10: Anavar 40mg/day
Weeks 4-8 or 6-10: Winstrol 50mg/day
Week 12: PCT + Clen

Thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks guys!

 

[rambleon]

No 1 hands down but u should extend the primo to all 10 weeks and i think running winny while running var is redundant. Even if var is the least hepatoxic oral 10 weeks is a bit much. 2 orals at the same time is really not a good idea IMO. If u really want the benefit of a DHT while doing the var a combo of no 1 and 2 could be the answer. Something like this:

1-10 sust 200 mg ew
1-10 primo 400 mg ew
1-10 mast 300 mg ew
4-10 var 50 mg ed
12 pct + clen

anyways good luck.

 

[Mavafanculo]

hello brand new member who we know nothing about

tell us alittle about yourself: age, height/weight, cycle history, lifting experience etc etc

then the good bros here can better tailor their helpful advice

 

[GUARDIAN]

+1. fairly advanced cycle choices considering your length of time here (doesnt mean anything we just dont know your cycle history to be giving that advice).

hello brand new member who we know nothing about

tell us alittle about yourself: age, height/weight, cycle history, lifting experience etc etc

then the good bros here can better tailor their helpful advice

 

[Nelson Montana]

90 mgs of an oral? I can't recommend that.

And why do people still add clen to PCT? That's so early 90's. PCT is the worst time to add clen since clen is catabolic. (Yes, catabolic, not ANTI catabolic. Whoever started that misconception really had their head up their ass, yet, the
rumor remains).

 

[squatmonkey]

This probally going to sound real stupid. But do you guys run sustanon on a cut cycle?

 

[sensational]

This probally going to sound real stupid. But do you guys run sustanon on a cut cycle?

If you control the estrogen, there is no reason not to.

 

[tranx90210]

I am 26 been working out for 9 years (4-5 times a week @ 8-10% BF 160 lbs 5'8 small bones). The last two years have been on and off due to growing my online business so I am up 12-14% BF working out 1-3 times a week .

Overall I am in good shape just looking to quickly gain some quality mass, strength, and getting ripped.

I've done cycle in the past before ranging from 8-12 weeks with multiple compounds. I just never used Primo or Masteron before so that why i'm asking you bro's for suggestions.

Regarding clen, I have found it anticatabolic for myself during PCT. Everyone is different I guess.

Rambleon - Thanks.

Thanks guys!

 

[tranx90210]

Thanks for your on my topic. I am definitely re-evaluating it.

I understand why you said 2 orals at the same time is quite toxic.

Would you say Var and Winny are pretty the same in effect for fat loss/ripping for it to be redundant? I do know that Var makes you a lot stronger and gain more quality mass than on Winny.

Also, isn't Primo and Masteron almost the same thing that taking it together would be redundant as well? We all know that Primo is the king of choice if available.

Your advice and feedback would be be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a billion!

No 1 hands down but u should extend the primo to all 10 weeks and i think running winny while running var is redundant. Even if var is the least hepatoxic oral 10 weeks is a bit much. 2 orals at the same time is really not a good idea IMO. If u really want the benefit of a DHT while doing the var a combo of no 1 and 2 could be the answer. Something like this:

1-10 sust 200 mg ew
1-10 primo 400 mg ew
1-10 mast 300 mg ew
4-10 var 50 mg ed
12 pct + clen

anyways good luck.

 

[GUARDIAN]

90 mgs of an oral? I can't recommend that.

And why do people still add clen to PCT? That's so early 90's. PCT is the worst time to add clen since clen is catabolic. (Yes, catabolic, not ANTI catabolic. Whoever started that misconception really had their head up their ass, yet, the
rumor remains).

Pharmacology 2002;65:38–48 Distribution and Muscle-Sparing Effects of Clenbuterol in Hindlimb-Suspended
Rats

"Based on their anabolic properties in skeletal muscles,
ß-adrenergic agonists are of interest as potential countermeasures to microgravity-induced skeletal muscle
atrophy. The levels of clenbuterol (Cb), a ß2-adrenergic
agonist, in both plasma and skeletal muscle were higher
in hindlimb-suspended rats than in their nonsuspended
Cb-treated controls. Cb treatment was shown to help
maintain the body weight in suspended rats, while reducing
the amount of mesenteric fat. However, hindlimb
suspension attenuated Cb’s lipolytic effects. In skeletal
muscle, the magnitude of response to unloading and Cb
treatment followed a general regional pattern and was
muscle and type specific. The highest magnitude of
response to unloading was in predominantly slow-twitch
muscles, and the least responsive were the predominately
fast-twitch muscles."

Clinical and Experimental Pharmacology and Physiology (1999) 26, 117–120

YEAR-LONG CLENBUTEROL TREATMENT OF MICE INCREASES
MASS, BUT NOT SPECIFIC FORCE OR NORMALIZED POWER,
OF SKELETAL MUSCLES

"1. Clenbuterol has been proposed for the treatment of muscle
wasting disorders, but its long-term effects on skeletal muscle
function have not been tested rigorously. We tested the hypothesis
that year-long treatment of young (6 months) mice with
clenbuterol would increase skeletal muscle mass and in vitro
measurements of specific force (Po) and power output.
2. Male mice (C57BL/10ScSn) were divided into treated
(n56) or untreated (n58) groups. Treated mice received
clenbuterol (1.5–2 mg/kg per day) in their drinking water for 52
weeks, following a staggered 3 day on/3 day off schedule to
attenuate the response to clenbuterol.
3. Clenbuterol treatment increased the absolute mass of each
muscle tested: the heart by 28%, extensor digitorum longus
(EDL) by 16%, soleus by 22% and tibialis anterior by 17%. For
treated compared with untreated mice, absolute Po (mN) was
greater in soleus muscles but not different in EDL muscles.
Absolute power output (mW) of the EDL and soleus muscles was
not different and no differences were observed for the specific
Po (kN/m2 ) or normalized power output (W/kg) of EDL muscles,
soleus muscles or diaphragm muscle strips.
4. We conclude that, following year-long treatment of mice
with clenbuterol, the mass of the heart and both fast and slow
skeletal muscles is increased, but the lack of any change in
normalized Po or power output indicates that clenbuterol has
little therapeutic effect on the functional properties of skeletal muscle."

 

[Nelson Montana]

Pharmacology 2002;65:38–48 Distribution and Muscle-Sparing Effects of Clenbuterol in Hindlimb-Suspended
Rats

"Based on their anabolic properties in skeletal muscles,
ß-adrenergic agonists are of interest as potential countermeasures to microgravity-induced skeletal muscle
atrophy. The levels of clenbuterol (Cb), a ß2-adrenergic
agonist, in both plasma and skeletal muscle were higher
in hindlimb-suspended rats than in their nonsuspended
Cb-treated controls. Cb treatment was shown to help
maintain the body weight in suspended rats, while reducing
the amount of mesenteric fat. However, hindlimb
suspension attenuated Cb’s lipolytic effects. In skeletal
muscle, the magnitude of response to unloading and Cb
treatment followed a general regional pattern and was
muscle and type specific. The highest magnitude of
response to unloading was in predominantly slow-twitch
muscles, and the least responsive were the predominately
fast-twitch muscles."

Clinical and Experimental Pharmacology and Physiology (1999) 26, 117–120

YEAR-LONG CLENBUTEROL TREATMENT OF MICE INCREASES
MASS, BUT NOT SPECIFIC FORCE OR NORMALIZED POWER,
OF SKELETAL MUSCLES

"1. Clenbuterol has been proposed for the treatment of muscle
wasting disorders, but its long-term effects on skeletal muscle
function have not been tested rigorously. We tested the hypothesis
that year-long treatment of young (6 months) mice with
clenbuterol would increase skeletal muscle mass and in vitro
measurements of specific force (Po) and power output.
2. Male mice (C57BL/10ScSn) were divided into treated
(n56) or untreated (n58) groups. Treated mice received
clenbuterol (1.5–2 mg/kg per day) in their drinking water for 52
weeks, following a staggered 3 day on/3 day off schedule to
attenuate the response to clenbuterol.
3. Clenbuterol treatment increased the absolute mass of each
muscle tested: the heart by 28%, extensor digitorum longus
(EDL) by 16%, soleus by 22% and tibialis anterior by 17%. For
treated compared with untreated mice, absolute Po (mN) was
greater in soleus muscles but not different in EDL muscles.
Absolute power output (mW) of the EDL and soleus muscles was
not different and no differences were observed for the specific
Po (kN/m2 ) or normalized power output (W/kg) of EDL muscles,
soleus muscles or diaphragm muscle strips.
4. We conclude that, following year-long treatment of mice
with clenbuterol, the mass of the heart and both fast and slow
skeletal muscles is increased, but the lack of any change in
normalized Po or power output indicates that clenbuterol has
little therapeutic effect on the functional properties of skeletal muscle."

Yeah, you can read into that a lot of ways and this is how these misnomers get started. Sure, less fat equals great LBM ratio but there's more to it than that. The conditions with which the rats were tested just don't translate to adult humans, especially those recovering from using anabolic agents. Bottom line. Clen is a CNS and any CNS is catabolic.

 

[GUARDIAN]

Yeah, you can read into that a lot of ways and this is how these misnomers get started. Sure, less fat equals great LBM ratio but there's more to it than that. The conditions with which the rats were tested just don't translate to adult humans, especially those recovering from using anabolic agents. Bottom line. Clen is a CNS and any CNS is catabolic.

I just want to argue with u.

 

[Ibuprofen]

since clen is catabolic. (Yes, catabolic, not ANTI catabolic. Whoever started that misconception really had their head up their ass, yet, the
rumor remains).

Résumé / Abstract
Background: High-dose clenbuterol (a selective β2-adrenergic agonist) has been proposed to promote myocardial recovery during left ventricular assist device (LVAD) support, but its effects on cardiac and skeletal muscle are largely unknown. Methods: Seven subjects with heart failure (5 ischemic, 2 non-ischemic) were started on oral clenbuterol 5 to 46 weeks post-LVAD implantation and up-titrated to daily doses of 720 μg. The following procedures were performed at baseline and after 3 months of therapy: echocardiography at reduced support (4 liters/min); cardiopulmonary exercise testing; body composition analysis; and quadriceps maximal voluntary contraction (MVC). Myocardial histologic analysis was measured at device implantation and explantation. Results: There were no serious adverse events or arrhythmias. Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) was elevated in 4 subjects, with no clinical sequelae. No change in ejection fraction was seen. End-diastolic dimension increased significantly (4.73 ± 0.67 vs 5.24 ± 0.66; p < 0.01), despite a trend toward increased LV mass. Body weight and lean mass increased significantly (75.5 ± 17.9 vs 79.2 ± 25.1 kg, 21.1 ± 8.9 vs 23.6 ± 9.7 kg, respectively; both p < 0.05). Exercise capacity did not change, but MVC improved significantly from 37.0 ± 15.7 to 45.8 ± 20.6 kg (p < 0.05). No significant change in myocyte size or collagen deposition was seen. Conclusions: Cardiac function did not improve in this cohort of LVAD patients treated with high-dose clenbuterol. However, clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength and prevented the expected decrease in myocyte size during LVAD support. Further study will clarify its potential for cardiac and skeletal muscle recovery. J Heart Lung Transplant 2006;25:1084-90.
Revue / Journal Title
The Journal of heart and lung transplantation ISSN 1053-2498
Source / Source
2006, vol. 25, no9, pp. 1084-1090 [7 page(s) (article)] (19 ref.)

 

[Nelson Montana]

Résumé / Abstract
Background: High-dose clenbuterol (a selective β2-adrenergic agonist) has been proposed to promote myocardial recovery during left ventricular assist device (LVAD) support, but its effects on cardiac and skeletal muscle are largely unknown. Methods: Seven subjects with heart failure (5 ischemic, 2 non-ischemic) were started on oral clenbuterol 5 to 46 weeks post-LVAD implantation and up-titrated to daily doses of 720 μg. The following procedures were performed at baseline and after 3 months of therapy: echocardiography at reduced support (4 liters/min); cardiopulmonary exercise testing; body composition analysis; and quadriceps maximal voluntary contraction (MVC). Myocardial histologic analysis was measured at device implantation and explantation. Results: There were no serious adverse events or arrhythmias. Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) was elevated in 4 subjects, with no clinical sequelae. No change in ejection fraction was seen. End-diastolic dimension increased significantly (4.73 ± 0.67 vs 5.24 ± 0.66; p < 0.01), despite a trend toward increased LV mass. Body weight and lean mass increased significantly (75.5 ± 17.9 vs 79.2 ± 25.1 kg, 21.1 ± 8.9 vs 23.6 ± 9.7 kg, respectively; both p < 0.05). Exercise capacity did not change, but MVC improved significantly from 37.0 ± 15.7 to 45.8 ± 20.6 kg (p < 0.05). No significant change in myocyte size or collagen deposition was seen. Conclusions: Cardiac function did not improve in this cohort of LVAD patients treated with high-dose clenbuterol. However, clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength and prevented the expected decrease in myocyte size during LVAD support. Further study will clarify its potential for cardiac and skeletal muscle recovery. J Heart Lung Transplant 2006;25:1084-90.
Revue / Journal Title
The Journal of heart and lung transplantation ISSN 1053-2498
Source / Source
2006, vol. 25, no9, pp. 1084-1090 [7 page(s) (article)] (19 ref.)

Once again, it isn't adding up. What's most curious is why they were testing on subjects with heart failure. Using clen can cause it!

 

[tranx90210]

Seems like this topic is getting out tangent.

Anyhow I modified my cycle thanks to your suggestions. I would do Sustanon, Primobolan, and Anavar for 10 weeks but it is too darn $$$ expensive! I also removed Winstrol btw since it is very similar to Anavar.

Weeks 1-8: Sustanon 400mg/week
Weeks 1-8: Primobolan 400mg/week
Weeks 1-8: Anavar 50mg/day
Week 10: PCT + Clen

I'm not gonna do any competition just looking to gain quality mass, strength, and ripness.

What do you guys think?

 

[702daswoll1]

I think the primobolan dose is way too low. Run it at 800mg every week if you can afford it.

Maybe sub in winny for the anavar and that will save you some $ to put towards the primo.

 

[tranx90210]

800mg week sounds pretty high. I was suggested 400-600mg week was fine enough. What are your physical stats your pretty jacked.

 

[halfcenturian]

They Are Both Shit Cycles, Imo
Run Test/tren/ Var Or Mast - Not Both, And Call It Good

 

[the_alcatraz]

Hey everyone,

I am looking to do a new cycle to cut fat, increase strength, and gain quality muscle.

Which option do you think is better? Primobolan or Masteron?

Option #1:
Weeks 1-10: Sustanon 200mg/week
Weeks 1-8: Primobolan 400mg/week
Weeks 1-10: Anavar 40mg/day
Weeks 4-8 or 6-10: Winstrol 50mg/day
Week 12: PCT + Clen

Option #2:
Weeks 1-10: Sustanon 200mg/week
Weeks 1-10: Masteron 500mg/week
Weeks 1-10: Anavar 40mg/day
Weeks 4-8 or 6-10: Winstrol 50mg/day
Week 12: PCT + Clen

Thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks guys!

Only 200mgs of Sustanon250 a week? It's called susta250...what happened to the other 50mg?! just sayin...