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Which drugs compete for the same receptor?

Good question. I've wondered the same thing. I've always thought it would result in an increase in "free test" if something out-competes for the receptor...
 
mendo said:
Good question. I've wondered the same thing. I've always thought it would result in an increase in "free test" if something out-competes for the receptor...

No no. You are thinking binding to SHBG. That is NOT what I'm talking about. Talking about binding to the androgen receptor. If tren out beats Test hands down. Then why the fuck take Test for? It won't have anywhere to go and do anything.
 
Carth said:
No no. You are thinking binding to SHBG. That is NOT what I'm talking about. Talking about binding to the androgen receptor. If tren out beats Test hands down. Then why the fuck take Test for? It won't have anywhere to go and do anything.
Good point. If it can't bind to the androgen receptor due to the tren...why take it at all. I guess the only reason would be to increase libido after tren kills it. I'm assuming libido involves other recepetors since it helps to add test to many stacks.
 
mendo said:
Good point. If it can't bind to the androgen receptor due to the tren...why take it at all. I guess the only reason would be to increase libido after tren kills it. I'm assuming libido involves other recepetors since it helps to add test to many stacks.

We're on to something here. But damnit! Why wont anybody else respond!
 
LT3 said:
Well if thats the case than why use sooo much test when stacking it with tren, why not use 250-400mgs a week as opposed to 750-1000mgs, which is more common?


I need to look into this before I start my tren in my cycle but I guess 500mgs a week isn't much over what your saying but if I can go down to 250mgs, hmmmm.......
 
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LT3 said:
Well if thats the case than why use sooo much test when stacking it with tren, why not use 250-400mgs a week as opposed to 750-1000mgs, which is more common?

or why even use test, why not throw in proviron? Less sides...just a thought for discussion
 
or why even use test, why not throw in proviron? Less sides...just a thought for discussion

thats true too, im SURE there is an answer to this, coz we're not the first to come to these realizations, but bump for someone with the answer.
 
Just because it binds more agressively, doesnt mean it binds to ALL receptors. For example, if you took 100mg tren ED, and 250mg test per week, vs 100mg tren ED, and 2500mg Test per week, you would gain more with the second cycle, obviously, but because there are plenty of receptors to be filled. Mg per Mg tren will bind to more than other steroids will.
 
Just because it binds more agressively, doesnt mean it binds to ALL receptors. For example, if you took 100mg tren ED, and 250mg test per week, vs 100mg tren ED, and 2500mg Test per week, you would gain more with the second cycle, obviously, but because there are plenty of receptors to be filled. Mg per Mg tren will bind to more than other steroids will.

Ok makes sense, but why not: use the tren because it binds so well, use another aas that binds better than test, then still use test but at lower doses. i mean if gaining is your problem then the second aas will take care of the other receptors that the tren and test havent filled yet, as opposed to using great doses of test, why not add another aas thats stronger than test in order to avoid taking so much test.
 
Remember though, just because a drug is highly androgenic, does not mean it is highly anabolic. Many steroids act by many different means. For example, halotestin is very androgenic but puts on little mass, so something that is not very androgenic like deca will put on more muscle. Filling up all receptors is not the goal. And even if it was, this would probably be very hard to do.

Also, there have been studies on people with NO androgen receptors, and they still gain when using some steroids, showing that steroids act not just by binding to the androgen receptor.
 
Originally posted by Landser
Also, there have been studies on people with NO androgen receptors, and they still gain when using some steroids, showing that steroids act not just by binding to the androgen receptor.

How does someone have NO androgen receptors?
Wouldn't that mean that their muscle cells would be completely unresponsive to Test?
I think you should elaborate a little bit...
 
Great thread!!! makes me think of why people do the following :

100mgs test prop EOD w/ Tren Ace 75mgs EOD...that is a very common tren/prop cycle.....
 
Very simply, there is no such thing as a simple anabolic receptor. Any receptor, including the anabolic receptor, has multiple sub-receptors and co-factors. Tren binds strongly to the clumpy object called the anabolic receptor. Nandrolone binds differently, but still to the anabolic receptor. The proof of this is in looking at the microscopic "soup" released in the cell when the anabolic receptor is bound. When different anabolics bind to the anabolic receptor, different flavors of "soups", with different ratios of second messengers, mRNAs, etc, are released. Organisms are not so black-and-white, all-or-nothing, in their response. A receptor is like a board with 50 switches, any swipe of the hand which hits a few switches will basically "turn the lights on", but the lights may be dimmer or brighter, blue or red tinged in color, etc.

Interestingly, as I posted elsewhere recently, new research shows that dbol and winny, which were thought to act somewhere besides the anabolic receptor, because they don't bind well in a test tube protocal, were recently found to be very active at the anabolic receptor in living creatures. So it's a situation where enough switches are flipped by these molecules for them to be potent anabolics in the real world, but not enough or the right kind of sub-switches are activated for them to be identified in an outmoded test-tube protocol.

So all anabolics function at the anabolic receptor, as far as we know in 2005. But they all "swipe the switches" a little differently. So they will have different "anabolic characters" you can identify, and that's what I use to plan cycles. And they do have different side effects, which can be factored in to plan around individual sensitivities.

Androgenization is really a side effect. Testosterone binds to the anabolic receptor (hitting more switches and co-factors than any other synthetic -- answering your question in the other thread) in muscle. It also binds to certain receptors in prostate, skin, etc, and these are called androgen receptors. While there is similarity in shape, don't forget that nature isn't that simple-minded, and prostate receptors don't look just like skin receptors, and neither looks just like the muscle receptors. The fact that testosterone hits them all doesn't mean other molecules must. What makes an anabolic "androgenic" is how many of these prostate, skin, etc receptors that the drug hits.

If you do a search for some guy's question about class I and class II drugs a week or two ago, you will see the article referred to and a different elaboration of these same points.
 
majutsu said:
Very simply, there is no such thing as a simple anabolic receptor. Any receptor, including the anabolic receptor, has multiple sub-receptors and co-factors. Tren binds strongly to the clumpy object called the anabolic receptor. Nandrolone binds differently, but still to the anabolic receptor. The proof of this is in looking at the microscopic "soup" released in the cell when the anabolic receptor is bound. When different anabolics bind to the anabolic receptor, different flavors of "soups", with different ratios of second messengers, mRNAs, etc, are released. Organisms are not so black-and-white, all-or-nothing, in their response. A receptor is like a board with 50 switches, any swipe of the hand which hits a few switches will basically "turn the lights on", but the lights may be dimmer or brighter, blue or red tinged in color, etc.

Interestingly, as I posted elsewhere recently, new research shows that dbol and winny, which were thought to act somewhere besides the anabolic receptor, because they don't bind well in a test tube protocal, were recently found to be very active at the anabolic receptor in living creatures. So it's a situation where enough switches are flipped by these molecules for them to be potent anabolics in the real world, but not enough or the right kind of sub-switches are activated for them to be identified in an outmoded test-tube protocol.

So all anabolics function at the anabolic receptor, as far as we know in 2005. But they all "swipe the switches" a little differently. So they will have different "anabolic characters" you can identify, and that's what I use to plan cycles. And they do have different side effects, which can be factored in to plan around individual sensitivities.

Androgenization is really a side effect. Testosterone binds to the anabolic receptor (hitting more switches and co-factors than any other synthetic -- answering your question in the other thread) in muscle. It also binds to certain receptors in prostate, skin, etc, and these are called androgen receptors. While there is similarity in shape, don't forget that nature isn't that simple-minded, and prostate receptors don't look just like skin receptors, and neither looks just like the muscle receptors. The fact that testosterone hits them all doesn't mean other molecules must. What makes an anabolic "androgenic" is how many of these prostate, skin, etc receptors that the drug hits.

If you do a search for some guy's question about class I and class II drugs a week or two ago, you will see the article referred to and a different elaboration of these same points.


I love it when this guy talks!

So Majutsu, stacking Tren and Test is NOT a waste? What about Dbol and Tren? Or how about something like Test/Tren/Dbol???

OH!!! Better yet.....Tren/Deca/EQ/Test ??
 
JohnnyWest said:
Originally posted by Landser


How does someone have NO androgen receptors?
Wouldn't that mean that their muscle cells would be completely unresponsive to Test?
I think you should elaborate a little bit...

Some people have a genetic mutation resulting in no androgen receptors.
 
Carth said:
I love it when this guy talks!

So Majutsu, stacking Tren and Test is NOT a waste? What about Dbol and Tren? Or how about something like Test/Tren/Dbol???

OH!!! Better yet.....Tren/Deca/EQ/Test ??

Test/Tren/Dbol sounds like a great combo.
 
In a nutshell: Proviron and Winny could provide the mechanisms to increase the value of other AS. Proviron would work because by binding to SHBG, it leaves hormone in a free state to bind to the AR. Proviron is a terrible Anabolic, but its affinity for SHBG would essentially �displace�other steroids from binding to SHBG. Winstrol would work to reduce the overall amount of SHBG, thereby having the effect of freeing up hormone to bind to the AR. What a stack!

raybravo at bb.com said this. excellent point.
 
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