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When using an enanthate ester or any other long ester ...

VictorBR

New member
Are you wasting your FIRST 2-3 weeks IF you don't FRONTLOAD IT ?


I mean , when using tren enanthate or test enanthate or Equipoise , it takes 2-3 weeks for it to start kicking in , does it means that in the first 1-2 weeks you are not getting any results ?


Can someone elaborate ?


Victor
 
You're not wasting anything during that time. Some people use a faster acting substance like dbol for the first 4 - 6 weeks until the longer acting esthers kick in. You will find you're still getting results during that time. Well, so long as your diet and training are in check.
 
hummm THat is exactly what I am doing , using dbol in the first 4 weeks ;)

"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to strongsmartsexy again. "


Victor
 
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people always forget that a 10 wk cycle of test E is 12-13 weeks long.

U shoot the first three wks with no results, but weeks 10-12 u can still make gains as it is still active... :p
 
I've never agreed with the idea of front loading with long acting esters, there's no point. It doesn't matter how much you use it's still going to take just as long to kick in.

I usually kick start with prop or dbol.
 
Apexx said:
It doesn't matter how much you use it's still going to take just as long to kick in.
This is incorrect. Below is the full mathematical explanation of what happens with IM injection of AAS esters:


HALF-LIFE, ESTERS AND FRONT-LOADING

HALF-LIFE

When you inject AAS some of that gear will enter the bloodstream and some will be absorbed into your body fat (some may also crystallize at the injection site but that’s not important to this discussion). The portion that gets absorbed into your body fat will then slowly be released into your bloodstream over time.

The portion of the gear that gets absorbed into the body fat (and the rate at which it is re-released) is determined by its ratio of oil solubility to water solubility. The measure of this release rate is quantified as half-life. Half-life is defined as the time period at which half the compound has entered the blood and half still remains in the body fat.

Let’s take trenbolone acetate as an example. It has a half-life of 3 days, so if you were to take a single injection of 100 mg. After 3 days 50 mg would remain in your body fat. After 6 days 25 mg would remain; after 9 days 12.5 mg would remain, etc.

ESTERIFICATION

Most injectible gear has been esterified. The suffix “ate” at the end of the compound’s name indicates an ester. Testosterone enanthATE, trenbolone acetATE, nandrolone decoanATE are all examples. Esterification simply means that a hydrocarbon molecule has been attached to the steroid through an ester bond. In the case of testosterone enanthate, the enanthate ester has been attached to testosterone at the C17 atom.

Esterification is simply a method to control the time release of the steroid. The longer the ester attached to the base steroid, the more oil soluble it becomes and the longer its half-life will be.

Attaching an ester actually renders the steroid inactive. However, the bloodstream contains esterase enzymes that will break apart the ester bonds and return the steroid to its active form.

This mechanism is what causes many people on these boards to state that “test is test”. Neither test prop nor test enanthate, nor any other testosterone ester is active. The all get converted to free testosterone in the blood before they can activate any anabolic or androgenic receptors. However, many people will report that they get fewer side effects from test prop that test enanthate, etc. If this is true it must be due to some less understood mechanism.

FRONT-LOADING

Let’s go back to our example of trenbolone acetate. Let’s say you decide to dose 150 mg of tren every 3 days for an average dosage of 50 mg/day. On day 1 you inject the 150 mg. Three days later, 75 mg is still stored in your body fat so your average dose was only 25 mg/day. After your next injection, the 150 mg is added to the 75 mg already stored, so 225 mg will be in your body and you will absorb 112.5 mg over the next 3 days for an average dosage of 37.5 mg/day.

With each successive injection, the amount of tren in your body approaches 300 mg at which point you will reach equilibrium and the full 150 mg you inject will be absorbed into your bloodstream in 3 days.

This gradual buildup of gear in your body fat is why it takes some time for injectible AAS to “kick in” (especially long half-life AAS).

But suppose you inject 300 mg of tren on day 1? In this case you will start out absorbing 150 mg in 3 days and you will be at equilibrium from day 1. This is the concept of front loading.

However, it gets a little more complicated. Suppose you wanted to dose 400 mg/week of deca. With its half-life of about 14 days you’re taking in 800 mg over a one half-life period so you’d have to inject 1.6 grams on day 1 to start out at equilibrium.

I don’t know about you, but I’m not injecting that much of any gear all at once, regardless of the half-life. Here’s why:

Published half-lives are based on the effect on the average population (in many cases they’re calculated and not actually measured). Some people have faster metabolisms than others so in some people the half-life will be shorter, in others it will be longer. Besides, AAS are taken by athletes; it is known that an intense workout can speed-up your metabolism for up to 48 hours afterward. Therefore, you should expect that the half-life will be shorter for you than for the average person. All this adds up to too much margin for error to inject such a ridiculously high dosage.

Here’s another complication; injecting gear at a frequency equal to its half-life will result in +/- 25% swings in blood level for that compound. In our example above dosing 300 mg of trenbolone acetate on day 1; your bloodstream would actually see about 62 mg of tren on day 1, 49 mg on day 2, and 39 mg on day 3…not quite a steady 50 mg/day.

To even out blood absorption levels, dosing more frequently is recommended. In the deca example above I mentioned dosing 400 mg/wk. Injecting at a frequency of ½ the half-life like this will result in blood levels remaining within +/- 16%. Also, doubling the dosage for the first 2 injections (800 mg) in this case will bring you to equilibrium at the 2nd injection (one week’s time) and results in a much more comfortable dosage range.

Similarly, injecting a compound at a frequency of 1/3 its half-life will keep blood levels at +/- 9%. In this case you front-load by doubling the dosage of the first 3 injections and you will be at equilibrium by the 3rd injection. At ¼ the half-life you’d double the dosage for the first 4 injections, etc.
 
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nyjd66,

True to a point but you need to consider what the person in particular is referring to. More than likely, they are referring to the immediate effects that they can feel such as strength. Therefore, if this is infact the case, stacking or front loading with a fast acting AAS such as methandrostenolone and/or testosterone propionate may prove to be a better alternative, since estrogenic side effects are more easily controlled, rather than taking a huge dosage of testosterone by itself. This is more of a psychologically rewarding issue versus a physically rewarding issue.

Jenetic
 
Jenetic,

I greatly respect your opinion and am happy to see your interest in my response.

Methandrostenolone aside, I would argue that properly front-loading a cycle using testosterone enanthate would yield identical initial results to a testosterone proprionate cycle using the same average daily dosage. That is to say, you will see the same results at the same time.

Physiologically the only difference is that with the enanthate you will have a larger cache of testosterone stored in your body fat that will take longer to dissipate once the cycle is over.
 
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nydj66 said:
Jenetic,

I greatly respect your opinion and am happy to see your interest in my response.

Methandrostenolone aside, I would argue that properly front-loading a cycle using testosterone enanthate would yield identical initial results to a testosterone proprionate cycle using the same average daily dosage. That is to say, you will see the same results at the same time.

Physiologically the only difference is that with the enanthate you will have a larger cache of testosterone stored in your body fat that will take longer to dissapate once the cycle is over.

Thanks,

I am completely aware of the theory of front loading and your conclusion is correct. If I am not mistaken, I belive that Victor is planning on running a cycle of 30-40 mgs Dbol ED, 500 mgs Testosterone EW and 400 mgs EQ EW as well as continuing his cycle with other AAS once the previously mentioned AAS are discontinued. In this particular scenario, I don't really see a point to front loading because it appears to me that he is primarily interested in an immediate effect in regards to strength. The process of front loading does play a factor on side effects with people who are not familiar with the proper ancilliary drugs and dosages required in preventing or minimizing side effects since everyone responds differently. I am neither for nor against the idea of front loading but I do believe that it is suited for more experienced users. Not everyone here is interested in researching all the necessary details and the effects of the required dosages will yeild the same results, approximately, by the time they finish their cycles.

Jenetic
 
Jenetic,

We are in complete agreement. In my original thread I was not so much answering Victor's question as I was taking issue with apexx's statement:

"I've never agreed with the idea of front loading with long acting esters, there's no point. It doesn't matter how much you use it's still going to take just as long to kick in."
 
nydj66 said:
We are in complete agreement. In my original thread I was not so much answering Victor's question as I was taking issue with apexx's statement:

nydj66, there is nothing in your post that proves that increasing the mg's
will decrease the amount of time it will take to enter the bloodstream. You are correct in the fact that if you take more then more will be released, but it will still take just as long.

If one plans to front load because they feel that their receptors will obsorb more at the beginning of the cycle as apposed to the end and they want to take advantage of that, then fine. But the issue here is front loading to provide an early boost of size and strength, that's not going to happen with
test-e. It's still going to take a few of weeks to kick in. You're better off adding prop or dbol or drol.
 
I've never agreed with the idea of front loading with long acting esters, there's no point. It doesn't matter how much you use it's still going to take just as long to kick in."



Ummm, I don't like this statement.

Suppose this: (and these numbers are just for arguement purposes)

Say your taking 3000mg of deconate. Suppose it de-esterfies 20% per week.
In the first week you would have 600mg of deconate.

Now lets say your taking 1000mg of deconate. After one week you would only yeild 200mg.


My point in that % wise, the same ammount is de-esterfied and being used, but in reality, when you frontload, your body is using far more AAS -- hence quicker results, and not waiting longer to kick in.
 
I agree with the math, but the conversion rate is so low that the doses would have to be way to high for it to be effective.
 
Guys, if I'm wrong here, I'll give karma to anyone who can show me proof that this actually works without insane dosages. I'm always open to taking full advantage when I'm "on". Hell, I could be missing the boat on this whole front loading thing.
 
Apexx said:
Guys, if I'm wrong here, I'll give karma to anyone who can show me proof that this actually works without insane dosages. I'm always open to taking full advantage when I'm "on". Hell, I could be missing the boat on this whole front loading thing.

Apexx,

Let me try to explain this another way.

When you plan a cycle, you decide on a dosage; say 350mg/week of test. Now you can start injecting 50mg/day of test prop and after about a week that full 50mg/day will be entering your bloodstream.

Understand that the test prop you inject is inactive until it enters your blood and esterase enzymes remove the proprionate ester. So, it is only the test that enters your bloodstream that causes any gains.

Now if you were to use testosterone enanthate for the same 350mg/week cycle, you would frontload by injecting 350mg on day 1, 350mg at 3.5 days, and 350mg on day 7.

On that day 7, you will have 50mg/day of test-E (average) entering your bloodstream; virtually identical results to using test prop. After day 7 you drop the dosage down to 175mg twice weekly and you will stay at 50mg/day (average) absorption. This example hardy involves insane dosages.

All this information is in the long post of mine above. Try and reread it with an open mind.
 
nydj66 said:
Apexx,

Let me try to explain this another way.

When you plan a cycle, you decide on a dosage; say 350mg/week of test. Now you can start injecting 50mg/day of test prop and after about a week that full 50mg/day will be entering your bloodstream.

Understand that the test prop you inject is inactive until it enters your blood and esterase enzymes remove the proprionate ester. So, it is only the test that enters your bloodstream that causes any gains.

Now if you were to use testosterone enanthate for the same 350mg/week cycle, you would frontload by injecting 350mg on day 1, 350mg at 3.5 days, and 350mg on day 7.

On that day 7, you will have 50mg/day of test-E (average) entering your bloodstream; virtually identical results to using test prop. After day 7 you drop the dosage down to 175mg twice weekly and you will stay at 50mg/day (average) absorption. This example hardy involves insane dosages.

All this information is in the long post of mine above. Try and reread it with an open mind.

Still not convinced, but I'm starting to see your point. Do you know of any studies that were performed on this?
I appreciate you taking the time out to try to explain it. I'll be sendin' some Karma to ya.
 
Apexx said:
Still not convinced, but I'm starting to see your point. Do you know of any studies that were performed on this?
I appreciate you taking the time out to try to explain it. I'll be sendin' some Karma to ya.

The only studies that would apply would be the original determination of the compund's half-lives. After that it's straight math based on the definition of half-life.

PM me with your email address and I'll send you a spreadsheet that will model blood absorption levels.
 
nydj66 said:
The only studies that would apply would be the original determination of the compund's half-lives. After that it's straight math based on the definition of half-life.

PM me with your email address and I'll send you a spreadsheet that will model blood absorption levels.


will do. Thanks again bro
 
I don't even know why the hell people are debating this. Using a shorter ester, frontloading or using an oral at the start is all the same damn shit.
 
Apexx said:
I agree with the math, but the conversion rate is so low that the doses would have to be way to high for it to be effective.

No the doses wouldn't have to be very high.

Take enathate -- a half life of 5-7 days.. what does that mean. That after 5-7 days it is 50% de-esterfied.

So you are completly bogus in disagreeing with my conversion numbers.

Or lets take the deconate ester which has a half life of about 18 days. This means that after 6 days (almost a week) 16.66% of the injected substance has been de-esterfied.

So suppose you are running 750 mg of test enanthate per week and want to frontload instead of using 30mg of dianabol. 30mg of dianabol = 210 mg of unesterfied AAS per week. Therefore you would need to add 420mg of testosterone enathate in your first week to yield 210 mg of dbol. That yeilds a total of 1120mg of AAS per week. Last time I checked 1120mg of AAS was a reasonable dose.

And if we continute on to your second week, you will indeed need even less frontloading gear that week as some of the extra test enathate from the first week will still be in the process of being de-esterfied.

Frontloading gets a bad rap because people think you need to double or triple your doses in the first few weeks. This simply is not true.

I don't understand why everyone thinks frontloading is stupid. In fact its probably better than taking an oral -- its liver friendly, and arguebly more cholesterol friendly.
 
psychedout said:
No the doses wouldn't have to be very high.

Take enathate -- a half life of 5-7 days.. what does that mean. That after 5-7 days it is 50% de-esterfied.

So you are completly bogus in disagreeing with my conversion numbers.

Or lets take the deconate ester which has a half life of about 18 days. This means that after 6 days (almost a week) 16.66% of the injected substance has been de-esterfied.

So suppose you are running 750 mg of test enanthate per week and want to frontload instead of using 30mg of dianabol. 30mg of dianabol = 210 mg of unesterfied AAS per week. Therefore you would need to add 420mg of testosterone enathate in your first week to yield 210 mg of dbol. That yeilds a total of 1120mg of AAS per week. Last time I checked 1120mg of AAS was a reasonable dose.

And if we continute on to your second week, you will indeed need even less frontloading gear that week as some of the extra test enathate from the first week will still be in the process of being de-esterfied.

Frontloading gets a bad rap because people think you need to double or triple your doses in the first few weeks. This simply is not true.

I don't understand why everyone thinks frontloading is stupid. In fact its probably better than taking an oral -- its liver friendly, and arguebly more cholesterol friendly.

1st of all, RELAX. I wasn't attacking you or your post. All I was saying was that with the numbers you used in your example, it didn't seam resonable.
I've never believed in front loading with longer acting esters. Maybe I just never looked at it with an open mind or actually tried to do the math.
nydj66 has emailed me some info that is starting to make sense....not completely yet, but starting to.
You gotta have a little patience bro. I know a lot about aas, but I don't pretend to know even half as much as other people on this board. Don't take someone's disagreement personally.
Thanks for taking the 2nd effort to try to re-explain your explination to me.
 
Apexx said:
1st of all, RELAX. I wasn't attacking you or your post. All I was saying was that with the numbers you used in your example, it didn't seam resonable.
I've never believed in front loading with longer acting esters. Maybe I just never looked at it with an open mind or actually tried to do the math.
nydj66 has emailed me some info that is starting to make sense....not completely yet, but starting to.
You gotta have a little patience bro. I know a lot about aas, but I don't pretend to know even half as much as other people on this board. Don't take someone's disagreement personally.
Thanks for taking the 2nd effort to try to re-explain your explination to me.


Your welcome. As for the attitude -- that was yesterday LoL. I could have murdered someone with zero remorse yesterday. I was edgy as shit. Its one of those days you swear roid rage is real.
 
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