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Been a little while since we had a debate here and lets face it this board has been a little slow so please define for me what the word athlete means to you.
dictionary said:
What makes an athlete in your mind?
- Thread starter superqt4u2nv
- Start date
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The Shadow
Guest
being able to just STFU.....and train.
It's about the realization that the REAL contest is simply against yourself and somehow, someway THAT sustains you on the cold rainy days when you want to say fuck it and sleep in.
It's about the realization that the REAL contest is simply against yourself and somehow, someway THAT sustains you on the cold rainy days when you want to say fuck it and sleep in.
I thought this was a great article on some of the challenges a figure competitor goes through. I am not a figure competitor but I respect their hardwork and dedication. I consider them athletes.
http://www.musclewithattitude.com/readTopicMwa.do?id=1516819
http://www.musclewithattitude.com/readTopicMwa.do?id=1516819
badgergrl
New member
I definitely think figure/fitness/bodybuilding are all sports, but I do agree that the way figure is presented makes it appear less like a sport. Maybe it's the heels or the makeup or the sometimes thousand dollar suits. I just think all of that takes away from the athleticism.
I've been to a few shows where inappropriate guys in the audience keep yelling out sexual shit, whistling etc. That really pisses me off because I feel like that takes the focus off of their hard work-then again, I think figure shows are marketed towards that-geared towards male audiences.
I've been to a few shows where inappropriate guys in the audience keep yelling out sexual shit, whistling etc. That really pisses me off because I feel like that takes the focus off of their hard work-then again, I think figure shows are marketed towards that-geared towards male audiences.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
I don't really know how to define "athlete"...but I can tell within seconds of talking to someone if they are one or not. It's more attitude than physical. Someone who trains or plays a sport is just that...a person who trains or plays a sport...an athlete is much more.
Regarding aesthetic competitions, I don't think any of them are sports, nor do I consider anything with "judges" and not referees to be sports.
Regarding aesthetic competitions, I don't think any of them are sports, nor do I consider anything with "judges" and not referees to be sports.
So you’re saying figure skating and gymnastic are not sports?Anthony Roberts said:
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
claire said:
I wrote an article on a figure competitor for T-Nation, and it got more replies than any article for the site, ever:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1132766
And after that there was a flurry of womens' articles on the site...all lame as hell, and a figure forum...again, lame as hell. But I agree with you, in part...some figure girls (Rosanne Clemente, who I wrote my article on) are athletes. Others aren't. It's attitude...I don't know how else to explain it.
This weekend, the collegiate rugby team I coach lost a game by a couple of points to a first division mens club...just to be able to compete at that level, with only a couple of years of training is remarkable. I told them that they accomplished something great by just being able to hold their own, in their early 20's, against guys who have been playing for a decade...is a huge accomplishment. A sophomore on the team said that it's all bullshit....a loss is a loss, and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise.
To me, that's an athlete. All that shit about "competing against yourself" is loser-talk. I don't know how else to explain it...but that attitude makes an athlete, in my eyes.
Another point: I worked with a girl who wanted to win her class and the overall at this particular show. She won her class. Then she wanted to enter 2 more, to compete, to see how she did, to have fun. I told her "good luck" and didn't work with her for those shows. She placed progressively worse in each one. Without the winning attitude, you're not an athlete, and I don't want any part of that.
The kids I coach (rugby) are all athletes. We have a 90% winning record over the years I've been head coach. Prior to that it was under 50%. I don't know how else to explain what an athlete is...but it's along these lines...
I dunno...some people will understand what I'm saying, others won't, I guess.
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The Shadow
Guest
A sport has a clearly defined winner.
ie - its NOT subjective - at least imo.
That does rule out bbing etc, but that does NOT mean that the competitors are not athletes.
ie - its NOT subjective - at least imo.
That does rule out bbing etc, but that does NOT mean that the competitors are not athletes.
Sassy69
New member
"Athlete" also implies a long-term dedication and pursuit of a sport. If a noob judged himself strictly on wins or losses in the immediate time frame and not with the long view to progressively improving relative to experience and increased skill, knowledge, mindset, then I think he is setting himself up for a very frustrating career. A win or a loss is a step along the way - I think the winning attitude comes from knowing you are being the best that you can be - "wins" come in many forms and the size and scope of that win is relative to many things. You can go in w/ a I"M GONNA TAKE IT ALL attitude, but if for some reason you don't, then its important to be a good loser as well - winning at any cost is not always winning.
Anthony Roberts said:
I agree I was not thrilled with the figure's forum but for probably different reasons then yours. I think they were trying to make the girls less hardcore and get rid of the powerlifters and bodybuilders. Well now that the dust has settled, the hardcore girls are back and the coaches are helping the new girls with their diets and we help the other girls lift weights. The bottom line is they are trying to sell supplements.
Some of the articles were lame. Chad Waterbury figure articles are useless and he was flamed endlessly for writing them. He gives routines that will just tone you and uses a model that workouts completely different than his article. Which the model admits. But Jen Heath was an excellent addition and articles on diet and exercise contain information even a powerlifter can use. Not one single wall sit or therapy ball in her article.
I agree that not all figure competitors are athletes. Some are just on a diet but the top ones certainly are. And there are several girls logging on this site that are amazing and are definitely athletes.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
claire said:
I just thought that the figure forum was doomed to fail. Here's what I mean...I wrote an article about a figure competitor, who I helped train to win the Ms.NJ, which got more replies than any article that whole year. Then T-Nation does their own figure article about their sponsored athlete and it got 1/10th the replies as mine did. Then all of a sudden, every T-Nation author became a figure-guru and wrote a ton of figure articles and had a figure forum, and etc, etc, etc...and it was just really lame because the articles were boring, typically not well written, and not about interesting topics.
In the end, the idea was doomed to fail...because while Rosanne's story is interesting, Figure as a whole is not interesting enough to have a million articles on it, and a forum, and etc...but the business model is good, because the womens fat-loss supplement is huge compared to the men's bodybuilding market. I just think it was poorly executed and lame.
It's kind of like the splash page where they proclaim the site to be the home of the "Virtuous Badboy"....last time I saw a bunch of people as "badboy" as that site, they were dressed in skirts and selling cookies door to door.
Also...this is another thing that irks me...why are all the authors called "coaches" there? You're only a coach if you coach something...and someone actually calls you their coach.
I really like the authors there (some of my best friends) as well as the owners and the members...but honestly, the way they went about the figure thing, and the whole "badboy" bullshit, is lame as hell.
Sassy69
New member
Lets also consider who these figure girls are - these are not long-term, dedicated "athletes" - in many cases its a girl who met a goal in dropping weight and wants to celebrate & acknowledge that goal by getting in stage w/ all the bling - that is completely legitimate per the requirements to enter these competitions. The requirements to enter a figure are fairly low - the requirements to win a figure show will be relative to who else showed up and also the local federation politics.
An "athlete" will be one who is above this - and they may actually choose to pursue a different route for the types of competition they are interested in - I have a friend who has an amazing physique and she is truly one of those genetic aborrations who has a "figure" body - but she's muscular and all natural --- she pursued NPC but really got dicked over by the local NPC chair last yr - pursued NGA competitions and got her pro card in 1 national qualifier and 1 pro qualifier -- she chose to do that to remove the politics she encountered in the NPC. Although she is not on the track of the more visible and popular NPC /IFBB, she can now compete in the whole group of natural federations at the pro level, and interestingly, these competitions actually have money associated with them. For her, that was a sufficient goal to be a "winner" - but she is still an athlete regardless of what federation she is in.
Physique competitions are definitely individual sports and thus allow room for a career outside of the federation itself depending on how business-driven the person is.
An "athlete" will be one who is above this - and they may actually choose to pursue a different route for the types of competition they are interested in - I have a friend who has an amazing physique and she is truly one of those genetic aborrations who has a "figure" body - but she's muscular and all natural --- she pursued NPC but really got dicked over by the local NPC chair last yr - pursued NGA competitions and got her pro card in 1 national qualifier and 1 pro qualifier -- she chose to do that to remove the politics she encountered in the NPC. Although she is not on the track of the more visible and popular NPC /IFBB, she can now compete in the whole group of natural federations at the pro level, and interestingly, these competitions actually have money associated with them. For her, that was a sufficient goal to be a "winner" - but she is still an athlete regardless of what federation she is in.
Physique competitions are definitely individual sports and thus allow room for a career outside of the federation itself depending on how business-driven the person is.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
Sassy69 said:
Rosanne is a figure girl. The girls you're talking about are "Figure Girls".
Know what I mean?
Sassy69
New member
I think I meant to say NOT ALL .... I understand but if you look at the broad range of people who do figure shows - they come from all walks of life - we're not just talkign about your one person- LOTS of people just dumped some weight, bought the suits and want to strut on stage just to validate their achievements. That's not really what I'd call an athlete - the mindset is not there - its just a moment to get on stage. For some, however, they do get addicted and become athletes. If you compare that to someone who is a regular in the gym for years, constantly working to improve their bodies, their strength, etc etc etc.
I'm targeting figure in particular because it has very low barriers to entry so you get a whole cross section of people you wouldn't normally find in an athletic competition. But pretty much anyone who wants can get up on stage and compete. Obviously the top competitors will be those who are "athletes".
I'm targeting figure in particular because it has very low barriers to entry so you get a whole cross section of people you wouldn't normally find in an athletic competition. But pretty much anyone who wants can get up on stage and compete. Obviously the top competitors will be those who are "athletes".
superqt4u2nv said:
This should be good....
As a former competitive figure skater I'd love to be told that the training involved, physical abuse to your body on a daily basis no matter what does not make you an athlete since you have a few idiot judges to impress to win your category because you'll have one hell of an argument on your hands.
But if I were a ice hockey player - I would be an athlete because I have a referee? That's absurd.
There is only a distinction I can think of and that is when you look at people that are physically genetically gifted that they "look" athletic (or "like" an athlete) but they don't do anything that is actually athletic or any type of daily training to become an athlete or live like one.
Anthony Roberts said:
This is exactly why I think they are doing what they are doing. They are selling to men but not enough women. This is all about promoting their new supplement se7en and I am sure they will be adding more female supplements. They are trying to get the average female, that's why they dumped the powerlifters and bodybuilders. They want to hit a larger section of the female population. And these girls want to be thin not muscular. They are also very anti-steriods with the females.
You may think it is lame but they do still have some amazing writers. Date Tate has written two articles in the last two weeks. I love Eric Cressey, Mike Robertson and many others. Some of the stuff is stupid. The new blood on the barbell series, I find lame. I also don't care for the whole virtual bad boy. Most of the bad boys are 14 year old boys pretending they can deadlift 400lbs.
I have not noticed the figure articles because if an article is not about strength training, I usually skip it. Unless everyone is complaining about it like CW articles.
badgergrl
New member
In terms of what makes a sport a sport.....I think you have to consider why you do it.
I mean, people ask me all the time why I want muscles or why I want to be ripped, and I explain to them that it's not about vanity or even about attractiveness.
So, why do I do it?
For me, it's a hobby, a competition (with myself and others)..... A SPORT!
Plus, there's an objective and goals to it. It certainly requires skill-both mental and physical.
I really disagree with the whole judges=not a sport thing.
I mean, people ask me all the time why I want muscles or why I want to be ripped, and I explain to them that it's not about vanity or even about attractiveness.
So, why do I do it?
For me, it's a hobby, a competition (with myself and others)..... A SPORT!
Plus, there's an objective and goals to it. It certainly requires skill-both mental and physical.
I really disagree with the whole judges=not a sport thing.
Anthony Roberts said:
I'll do a search for "Table for Two". Dave Tate is one of my favorite writers. Gets straight to the point and great information. I would love to train with him. Cressey was my on-line trainer for several months. Just taking a few months off from powerlifting.
I agree with you on the other authors. I like Cosgrove, Gentilecore and Thibs too.
Just wanted to stick up for what is good about t-nation. It has given me the support I have needed when my own team mates have failed me.
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
claire said:
I'm not bagging on the Authors or even the owners or members of T-Nation. The only thing I really didn't dig about the site was that lame "T-Man" shit and all the attitude.
Here's my Dave Tate article:
http://www.anthony-roberts.com/dave_tate.html
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Anthony Roberts
Guest
badgergrl said:
In my mind, a sport contains both an active offensive (point scoring) and active defensive (keeping the opposition from scoring) component, while at the same time having an objective scoring system (6 points for a touchdown, etc...).
Also, I suspect that there should be a physical component which would make use of strength, skill, speed, etc...
Bodybuilding has subjective scoring (judging, not refereeing), and has no defensive component. I also can't make the argument that it's got a physical component which displays something like skill, speed, strength, etc...
I think something without all three criteria is still a competition (like gymnastics), but not a sport.
None of this is to say it's not a worthwhile pursuit, I just think that all worthwhile pursuits shouldn't be considered sports just because they require physical training.
Also...you play a sport. Do you play bodybuilding? You actually don't "bodybuild" when you're on stage...you do something completely different from the training you endure to get on stage. Bodybuilding is the name of the training, appropriately, "Flexing" or "Posing" would be the proper name for the competitive activity.
