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What is Overtraining????

bigrand

New member
Bros,

Just curious as to all your thoughts on what exactly overtraining is. Some people say that it occurs when you do over a specific number of sets while working a bodypart, for example, doing like 20 sets for chest. Others say its when you work a bodypart again too soon after working it, for example, working back every 3 days.

I personally think that the latter is overtraining. Does it really matter now many sets you do on a body part, if you fuckin destroy it, as along as you give it sufficent time to rest and give it proper nutrients and sufficent protein and calories. Muscle does grow while resting. Traumatize and allow recovery.

What do you bros think?
 
Overtraining is when you loose motivation - i.e. to do another set, get too sore, dont feel like going to the gym anymore - it covers alot of ground, but all in all - it means the same thing - fuck this.

derrick m.
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#!
 
personally, IMO, both of those are over training. In the past Ive read you want to stimulate the muscle, not destroy it. Your not nescasarily trying to rip the muscle as much as possible. Your trying to find that optimal balance that makes the mucle grow nicely but also recover quickly. I try to do about 12 sets per muscle group and i usually give each mucle group a 7 day rest. Then again these arent nescasarily facts...just my views on how to workout from what ive read and been told.
 
This is how I do it:

22-25 sets per muscle group.

1 days rest.

Works great for me.

I mean overtraining is when don't allow a day off sometimes. I have 3 days rest (scarcely 4, but it happens - I'm a buzzy fella).
 
You'll know when you're overtraining. Classical symptoms are difficulty sleeping, always feeling tired and low on energy and having no motivation to work out. Take 2 weeks off and come back stronger.
 
TieRex said:
This is how I do it:

22-25 sets per muscle group.

1 days rest.

Works great for me.

I mean overtraining is when don't allow a day off sometimes. I have 3 days rest (scarcely 4, but it happens - I'm a buzzy fella).

Dude.. You are a true example of a "Lebensborn" child aren't you. Great Grandchild of Goebbels right?

derrick m.
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Overtraining, for the most part, is when you don't allow enough time for your muscles/nervous system to recover after a heavy workout. If you train a specific muscle one day and the following week you train that muscle again, but don't get stronger, that means either you didn't fully recover(need more time to recuperate) or you didn't train intensely enough. Another reason might be you have a poor diet. But everybody is different and recuperative abilities vary. Generally, the longer and more intense your workout, the longer it will take to recover. Just my 2 cents.
 
some good replies here, some dumbass ones too.

I think this is a valid question. I do more than 12 sets on chest. SOme people tell me im overtraining. I dont think so because i give it addequate rest.
What im really getting at is that i dont think the number of sets is that important. I think you should be able to destroy a muscle, but give it plenty of time to recover because it doesnt grow in the gym, it grows while resting. I look at it like Sergio does, not enough time to recover=overtraining. Others say if you do more than x# of sets, you are overtraining.

Does the question make sense, hookuprx, or you you being funny?
 
I personally, dont think there is much too it. MY definition of overtraining - is being unable mentally, or physically continue a training schedule. Wether your too tired, sore, busy - whatever - you are overtrained. You must be able - mentally.. and physically.

am I being funny? of course.. but I'm right :mad:

derrick m.
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What im really looking for is what leads to overtraining, not neccesarily what is it. Im sure all the bros on the board have had it at one time. But ive heard two sides when it comes to what causes overtraining, the too many sets, and the not enough days rest. For me, sets doesnt matter as much as days rest. That is what im getting at.

Kind of a strange question, i know, but i just dont agree with people telling me "bro, your doing too many sets, your gonna overtrain".
 
bigrand said:
What im really looking for is what leads to overtraining, not neccesarily what is it. Im sure all the bros on the board have had it at one time. But ive heard two sides when it comes to what causes overtraining, the too many sets, and the not enough days rest. For me, sets doesnt matter as much as days rest. That is what im getting at.

Kind of a strange question, i know, but i just dont agree with people telling me "bro, your doing too many sets, your gonna overtrain".

Causes of overtraining: (just a few to mention)

1. Too many reps/sets
2. Working out too many times a week
3. Injuries
4. Stress
5. Not enough time for recovery
6. Low Supplementation
7. Poor Diet
8. Burnout
9. Women

and so on.. there are plenty of reasons. When you dont want to / can't work out - you have over trained.

derrick m.
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#!
 
good post bigrand... Bump.

Personally, I think that I may be doing too many sets per musclegroup, but this is something I will adjust with time. I'm trying to varying the training by differing the number of sets and reps. I don't want to get bored by how I train.
 
Bigrand, I personally think 20 sets(even if that includes warm-up sets) is too much for any body part. I trained like that years ago and got nowhere. It wasn't until I cut my sets down to around 5 or 6 that I started seeing results. As long as you're training to failure, that is enough to stimulate growth. I know some people train like you and get results, but not everyone has super recovery abilities. As long as you get stronger from workout to workout, that's what matters. my 4 cents.
 
Years ago when I first got started I used to train with a guy who outweighed me by over 50 pounds and had a meso physique compared to my ecto tendencies. He put us on a schedule of 3 days on, 1 day off, with at least 20 sets per bodypart. Needless to say he grew while I didn't get dick all, except moderate strength gains. By the third day I'd feel like I had a hundred pounds of lead in my ass. I had hardly any appetite and quickly lost interest in going to the gym after three months of little gains. Classic burnout.

Now I train by instinct. I never set time limits or set numbers, I just do my warm up and then hit the bodypart with at least three different movements done with heavy weight, enough to squeeze out 4-8 reps. I can pretty much "feel" when the muscle has been exhausted and adjust the workload accordingly.

And now I always take at least one day off after working out, spending the day eating, resting, and visualizing the shape I want to achieve. If I'm feeling ambitious I will go in for a 45 min cardio session. By the next day I am ready to go back in and pound it some more.

Unless you are on AAS your body needs lots of recovery time, probably more than most of us think. Rest could be one of the most commonly overlooked aspects of training, especially for hungry beginners.
 
overtraining is usually either caused by the number of sets you do or by the amount of recovery time you give your muscles. When working out, you should spend no longer than an hour to an hour and a half max at the gym, because any more time after that actually becomes counterproductive. Also, rest time in between sets and in between workout days (for the same muscle) must be long enough in order for your muscles to recooperate.

I just read a book by a Russian powerlifter and in it he described how if you want to gain strength without gaining even muscle you should do low rep (3-5) and high weight (80%-95% of max) and should NEVER DO A SET TO FAILURE. You should stop 1 rep or so short of what you can do. Doing a set to failure ends of being counterproductive because your body ends of using all the glycogen reserves in your muscles and the body can't recuperate and build back the torn down muscle in a timely fashion.

I used to do many of my sets to failure, and I realized how much this would kill my complete workout, which would help lead me to getting burned out. I would feel so much weaker in the gym after my failure sets, and I would be very unmotivated for the rest of my workout.

Burning out can often be mistaken for overtraining. Burning out is caused by a lack of motivation, which is often caused by a plateau in someone's gains or results. In order to overcome this plateau, one must make sure to stay away from overtraining and keep changing up your workout routine every few months or so as to prevent muscle memory.

Polar707
 
Basically, its like this.

When training, you place a stress on a muscle or group of muscles. Temporarily, afterwards, the muscle is slightly less capable, since it has been exhausted in several ways. In the very short term, stores of fuel have been depleted which require time to replenish (like minutes to hours). Also, a very slight amount of microscopic "damage" (and that term my be a bit strong but I use it just to illustrate a point) occurs, which requires healing. Also, the workload placed up the muscle in general causes a response in the body where it compensates by recuperating the muscle to be as strong/large as it was and a BIT larger/stronger.

Now, this healing process of the microscopic tears, and the response to INCREASE the muscles capacity takes MORE time. On the order of days.

How many days? That depends upon many factors (which have been stated in earlier posts). How hard you trained, the number of reps, sets, SPEED of execution of the movement, diet, rest, POST WORKOUT STIMULATION (like massage, icing, mild flexing, etc).

Those factors determine how long it takes to recover.

Now, overtraining happens when someone does not wait long enough for that recovery to occur before (over-) stressing the muscle again.

You could do a relatively light workout, and be ready for another in 3 days. You could go balls out, multiple sets to complete failure, strip sets, etc etc etc and require a good 10-14 days.

A trainer I worked with (who is NOT a flake trainer - this person DOES know their shit) made a very profound statement to me once ... "There is no such thing as overtraining, there is just under-recovery". While I don’t totally agree with that, it does illustrate an important point.

Overtraining is in part due to how hard you train, but it is equally a function of how long you wait to recover.

Most BB'ers train at a level which allows them to hit each major muscle group 1 time per week. That seems to be a good balance for most people.

Training so light that you can recover in like 3 days has the difficulty of you not REALLY stressing the muscle enough.

Training at the other extreme has problems. If you totally freegin wipe out a muscle group, so that it needs 14 days to recover, then this muscle group becomes the "weak point" when working other muscle groups, causing problems on getting a good whole-body routine to work. For example, if you TOTALLY blow out your shoulders on a killer balls-out workout .... that’s fine, maybe wait 14 days to do it again, but the problem is if you try to do chest in the meantime, you end up not being able to get a good chest workout, because your shoulders are needed for supporting functions while working the chest.

And before anyone comes on and says "no way you could do a workout which really requires 14 days to recover" I say BULLSHIT. It IS possible. As a test, I have done it on every major muscle group at different times.

So, the key to NOT overtraining is to hit that balance, that delicate balance, of resting enough for recovery, but not so long that atrophy starts (where you muscles, due to lack of stimulation, start to gradually weaken and get smaller).

Here is a very important point:

You can overtrain while on AS.

Read that again.

It IS possible.

I did it, and it was no picnic. Tired, but could not sleep, not hungry, felt like shit, etc.

I was doing (get this, for example ....) each body part 1 time per week. A typical workout for chest would be 6 different exercises, 3 sets each (not including warm-ups), each set to total failure, at about 8-12 reps for each set.

I was fine in the gym, I could do it. I would just focus, and keep going. But I was only allowing a week to recover, and even while on, it was not long enough.

So, it's important to know your body, how it responds, and how long YOU need to recover.

This is also a very good reason why it is best for people to train and gain as much as possible naturally before using AS. First, it its trains all of the supporting body functions (nervous system, lungs, heart, etc) which are taxed (a LOT) while on AS, but yet do not respond to the increases in capacity/strength/efficiency as much as muscles do while ON. Also, training for a long time naturally allows YOUI to get in tune with how your body feels, recovery time, etc, so that you are better able top "listen" and feel what is going on …. Better able to know when you can train again, and when its TOO early (I got a little over-anxious and did not listen to these signs while on, and overtrained).

Anyway, I hope this helps.
 
Good shit bros,

I guess its all up to the individual and its hit or miss until you find your groove. I will keep it to working a bodypart once a week and will change up my sets to see what suits me best (currently doing like 16-18 sets on chest, 3 of each dumbel press incline decline and flat, 2 of each dumbel fly, and 2 sets croosovers). My chest hasnt gained in strenght the way i wanted it to. Ive only really gone up about 10lbs on the dumbels in the last 3 months. Maybe i should stick to just presses and crossovers, or varying the presses i do each week......, we shall see.
 
All very good answers/opinions,but Riker 29 made a shit load of sense to me,I'm currently working with a national competitor/personal trainer who said the same thing about"there is no overtraining just not enough recovery time".He has got me on a 6 day split working each bodypart 2 a week, and the first 3 days is great but when i start the split over i cant get a pump or get sore to save my life +im not A.S. as of right now either,I personally feel its different for everybody and depends greatly on a persons matabolism,genetics and recovery abilities...different strokes for different folks...ha ha:D
 
Here is an interesting episode which others may learn from. And this is not the overtraining example I listed above ..... but years ago ....

About 10 years ago, I did that over-priced "Cybergrnics" system. It had a lot of supplements, but what I liked was that it was very specifc in terms of the workout program. There was even a video showing you the different exercises and everything.

The training regimen was 6 days a week. Each bodypart was trained 2x per week. The program involved multiple set per body part. AND the sets were "strip sets". Like this ....

Warm up on dumbells.

Now do 85% of Max Bench Press, to Failure, TOTAL FAILURE (you were even supposed to have someone spot you UP, so that TOTAL failure was achived when you could not even LOWER the weight under your control. I never went THAT far, becuase I never train with a partner, but I digress).

Now, IMMEDIETELY, strip off like 30% of the weight, and KEEP GOING until total failure again.

Now, IMMEDIETELY strip off another like 30% and go AGAIN, to failure.

That is one "strip set". Now do THAT 3 times, and you are done with bench presses.

Then on to the next chest exercise (like 3-4 more exercizes).



That's how it worked.

I was able to keep this up (thats what good MENTAL training will do ...) despite feeling more and more tired. After about 4 weeks, I was ready to drop. Sick, tired, felt like hell ..... and it freegin wiped me out. After a about week 6 I stopped, because I was getting sick. It wiped out my immune system so much, I got Mono (even though no one I knew had it, I must have been exposed to a very very small amount, but my totally wacked-body was so susceptible, that I got sick).



THAT's how bad it can get.

Yeah, I know, I was younger and stupid. You learn.
 
DAMN! now I'v been guilty of over training but thats some crazy shit,Riker 29 what is your opinion on working each bodypart twice a week,I almost think it's a bit to much for the system,at least mine...:confused:
 
bigrand said:

I personally think that the latter is overtraining. Does it really matter now many sets you do on a body part, if you fuckin destroy it, as along as you give it sufficent time to rest and give it proper nutrients and sufficent protein and calories. Muscle does grow while resting. Traumatize and allow recovery.

I used to believe this and then I noticed that doing a shitload of sets and crushing a muscle was not getting me anywhere. All the while I watched this guy do maximal weight, a few sets per muscle and he was growing like a weed.

The secret is not beating the shit out of yourself, it is creating an environment where your muscle is forced to adapt to a load. Doing a lower weight for tons of sets really doesn't create a climate for muscle growth... ask any marathoner. If high volume worked, marathoners would have the largest legs on the planet.

Take a look at the MAX OT system at www.ast-ss.com to get an idea of what I am talking about.
 
Anybody that is training for mass should only do enough to stimulate muscle growth not annihilate it.It's all about the intensity of the workout not the length and as everybody should know you can train long or hard but you can't train long and hard! Dorian Yates trains very heavily with a lot of compound exercises, few reps and only one working set per exercise and so even though he was not particularly well blessed genetically he was a fucking monster!
I know that it's each to his own but I literally can not believe how many sets/reps some bros are still using and how often! You should be tired when you leave the gym not when you enter it!
;)
 
Lets get some training splits up here...mine currently is

mon-quads,hams,calves.
tue-chest,shoulders,tri's.
wed-back,bi's,traps
thurs-same as monday
fri-same as tue.
sat-same as wed.
sun rest:mix:
 
I go 4 days a week

Day 1=Chest/shoulders
Day 2=Back/traps
rest
Day 3=Bis/Tris/forearms
rest
Day 4=Legs
rest

Abs on rest days at night (crunches and shit).
 
Brothers, you will be surprised by how many sets you can get away with doing, and still stimulate growth. I train each muscle group once a week and do only 2 sets to failure per exercise (4 sets per bodypart), and the following week come back stronger 99% of the time. I use a triple split routine, training every-other-day. My workouts last 45mins. to an hour- TOPS! The key is INTENSITY! Giving 100% effort in trying to finish that last rep. To tell you the truth, I hardly break a sweat during my workouts because they are so brief! (with the exception of leg day). I almost feel guilty walking out of the gym after only 45 mins. But that's all it takes for me. There is a book that I recommend, by the late Mike Mentzer called " Heavy Duty II- Mind and Body". It is the bible of BBing. This book is essential reading for anyone wanting to pack on mass, and talks a lot about overtraining. This book is the scientific approach to BBing, because there is an exact science to muscle growth that applies to everyone, although genetics/recovery ability varies from each individual.
 
Sergio,

Would you mind giving me an example of your chest and back routines? I want my chest to grow faster and my lats to expand imensly. Im curious as to how you work these body parts in the 4 set manner.

Thanx
 
BTW Bigrand (don't like to keep picking on you), you do realize that you're training Bis/Tris twice a week by splitting them from Back/Chest. It's a good idea to train Back with bis because your biceps do a lot of the work on back movements, and triceps help work out chest.
 
Sergio,

I dont think your picking on me. Nothing to pick on (except my choice of splits)!
I work them together to get a great full arm pump.

I know they are worked on Back/Chest day, but not fully. They feel fine by arm day. Ive heard lots of people do the arm day thing. Ive only been doing it now for about a month, ill see where it takes me. I split back with bis and chest with tris for the better part of a year anyway.

Great replies bros, this is what i was looking for.
 
Yea Bigrand, if you find your arms are not stronger(on your arm day) the following week you are most likely overtraining them. Your arms may feel fine (sore free) but that doesn't necessarily mean they have recovered from the previous workout. Being in a state of overtraining is usually not something you can feel (unless you're still sore from the last workout and/or tired) Just ask yourself if you're getting stronger from week to week. If not, take more days off to recover, and don't worry about losing strength, you won't. Most of us know that if you've been training for a while then take like 2 weeks off you come back stronger, don't you? Hope this helps.
 
Good shit Sergio,

The thing i didnt like about pairing bis with back was that i was so damn beat after doing back, i couldnt concentrate on my bis the way i wanted to. Ill go at it for another month and see where im at. Already i notice an increase in bicep size while at rest and the lower bi near the elbow joint is filling in more. I am also more vascular regularly (the massive vein running down the top of the bi is more visible than before).

Thanx bro.
 
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