What do you think about this statement?

[yomama]

In my opinion, there are two little discussed dangers of steroids, both of which are very real. Although steroids do increase nitrogen retention, reduce muscle catabolism (tissue breakdown), and volumize muscle cells, steroid users are often disappointed with their results. Steroid use at the expense of proper nutrition and intense training often leads to no more than a temporary "bloat." Even when combined with intense training and supportive nutrition, the body tends to build up a resistance to the drugs, bringing the enhanced muscle growth to a halt. As this tolerance develops, the muscle cells begin to develop more cortisol receptors. Cortisol is a catabolic hormone, thus, when the steroid use is stopped, the residual muscle stopped, the residual muscle breakdown is rapid.

Does anyone have any info on how the body tends to build up resistance/get used to steroids. I couldnt find anything on google.

 

[DiamondCutCows]

I've spoken with a fair amount of bros who still gain on less than 1g/week. I hear what your saying, but dont think it applies to everyone.

Dial-Tone for instance runs smaller cycles than most NEWBS...

 

[jobe(copy)]

well.. of course we are going to hear the ignorant over exagerations of the typical media.. but what they are referring to is receptor up regulation of cortisol receptors and receptor down regulation of androgen receptors.. yes your body will attempt to balance you out... but with proper PCT, you can keep about 90% of your real gains (remember water bloat and weight is not a gain.. just a temporary side.. but with some arimidex/aromasin you should be fine..)

 

[Apexx]

bump

 

[yomama]

bump

 

[satchboogie]

i'm certain that my body will NOT grow after 8-10 weeks!

so nowadays, i like to keep my cycles short and explosive.

 

[wetback]

i'm certain that my body will NOT grow after 8-10 weeks!

so nowadays, i like to keep my cycles short and explosive.

Nice choice of words Satch.......I like it !

 

[casualbb]

The truth is, the body doesn't really downregulate androgen receptors the way it might with recreational drugs

In fact, there's evidence of slight receptor upregulation.

THe reason you can't keep growing on the same doses is not that your body has accustomed to them, it's that you're carrying an increasingly unnatural level of inflated muscle mass, that requires steroids to maintain.

so steroid effectiveness is related to absolute muscle mass, not length of time using them. for instance, if you blew up on a bunch of cycles and then stopped and shrank down to your natural weight, and then decided to resume use, they would be just as effective as they had originally (if not more effective b/c of muscle memory)

 

[DiamondCutCows]

so steroid effectiveness is related to absolute muscle mass, not length of time using them. for instance, if you blew up on a bunch of cycles and then stopped and shrank down to your natural weight, and then decided to resume use, they would be just as effective as they had originally (if not more effective b/c of muscle memory)

 

[yomama]

The truth is, the body doesn't really downregulate androgen receptors the way it might with recreational drugs

In fact, there's evidence of slight receptor upregulation.

THe reason you can't keep growing on the same doses is not that your body has accustomed to them, it's that you're carrying an increasingly unnatural level of inflated muscle mass, that requires steroids to maintain.

so steroid effectiveness is related to absolute muscle mass, not length of time using them. for instance, if you blew up on a bunch of cycles and then stopped and shrank down to your natural weight, and then decided to resume use, they would be just as effective as they had originally (if not more effective b/c of muscle memory)

the body tends to build up a resistance to the drugs, bringing the enhanced muscle growth to a halt. As this tolerance develops, the muscle cells begin to develop more cortisol receptors.

This is what I was talking about. I guess it could be true that muscle cells develop more cortisol receptors, that's why it's so hard to gain when you're already up there.

I think someone posted that pro's would use different gear everyweek so their body's dont get accostomed to gear. Something like that. Maybe it's bs.

 

[bible51isonya]

Jobe makes an excellent point. Weight and water is not a gain but a side.

 

[CNovaJason]

So are you basically saying that running a first time cycle of Test Prop, 500 mg a week, for 10 weeks will only give me water bloating if I train hard and eat correctly?

 

[DiamondCutCows]

So are you basically saying that running a first time cycle of Test Prop, 500 mg a week, for 10 weeks will only give me water bloating if I train hard and eat correctly?

Dont believe that. I dont think thats what yomama was saying, er I hope not...

 

[Mythicalbeing]

So according to what I'm reading....if you change compounds during an extended cycle...wouldn't you be flooding diffrent receptors? While on average I gain 10-20lbs of body weight during the last 3 years per cycle....running 12-14 weeks average (deca,eq) which require min 12 weeks....I gain on average 5lbs per cycle(kept, not bloat) So depending...I keep 1/4 or 1/2 of my gains. Strength wise....let's say I never go to my last max lift...always over...by 15-20lbs that I keep per cycle. (bench, squat) BUT I do lose. It's tough to drop 50lbs off your bench, BUT when your 20lbs over your personal best 28weeks after a cycle I call that well worth it.

But now I'm supplementing my body year around, I predict massive changes in both my body composition and my gain to loss ratio.

 

[yomama]

well.. of course we are going to hear the ignorant over exagerations of the typical media.. but what they are referring to is receptor up regulation of cortisol receptors and receptor down regulation of androgen receptors.. yes your body will attempt to balance you out... but with proper PCT, you can keep about 90% of your real gains (remember water bloat and weight is not a gain.. just a temporary side.. but with some arimidex/aromasin you should be fine..)

That statement was taken from a used to be bodybuilder. Not the media.

 

[Mythicalbeing]

Yomama...I agree 80% with the last statement.But 90% of gains kept? I gotta know his PCT.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

The truth is, the body doesn't really downregulate androgen receptors the way it might with recreational drugs

In fact, there's evidence of slight receptor upregulation.

THe reason you can't keep growing on the same doses is not that your body has accustomed to them, it's that you're carrying an increasingly unnatural level of inflated muscle mass, that requires steroids to maintain.

so steroid effectiveness is related to absolute muscle mass, not length of time using them. for instance, if you blew up on a bunch of cycles and then stopped and shrank down to your natural weight, and then decided to resume use, they would be just as effective as they had originally (if not more effective b/c of muscle memory)

completely disagree..most people think they become resistant to gear..truth is they do not up their cals as they grow..time and time again people say i stop growing after X weeks..well if you gained 10 lbs or more you need to eat more otherwise your gains stagnate..it works te same way even if you are training natural..ive been natty for the lat year and lately my diet hasnt been the best (im not eating as much but im still getting in decen protein) ive noticed that my weight hasnt moved in awhile and my strength although going up is moving up slowly..why is ronnie able to add 40lbs of mass at his stage of development..training and nutrition..

 

[Ulter]

Your gains and continued gains are in direct proportion to how far the steroids at a given level have pushed you past your genetic limit. The reason this varies so much from one guy to the next is usually because people now a days start using AAS WAY TOO EARLY in their training. People SHOULD build naturally for 4 or 5 years and then when they reach plateaus that they can't get over begin using AS.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Wait four or five years??? Yeah sure Ulter, dream on.
The vast majority of people here start using AS after a year, maybe two, of training when they are nowhere near their genetic limit. So their first cycle blows them up pretty easily. But then they have hit the genetic limit that that amount of AS is going to make them grow and the gains come MUCH slower. The only answer is the one the pros use. Double your doses. And then BOOM you'll blow up again just like the first time. What you don't see when people do this however is a mature muscle mass. When you cut the corners of building lean mass by jumping on steroids too soon you get bigger but it doesn't look the same as someone who has THICK, etched, LBM.
If you do wait until you’ve hit your natural limit your gains on your first cycle will not be as dramatic but you’ll look WAY better when you’re done. There is no comparison between newbie growth and adding to mature muscle mass.
So it’s not a resistance to the drugs. It’s not cortisol. It’s just where your genetic limit is and how far you’ve pushed past it using AS. And this is also why some guys post “I gained 30 pounds on my first cycle and kept it” and others post “My gear is fake, I only gained 10 pounds on the same cycle”.

 

[yomama]

Your gains and continued gains are in direct proportion to how far the steroids at a given level have pushed you past your genetic limit. The reason this varies so much from one guy to the next is usually because people now a days start using AAS WAY TOO EARLY in their training. People SHOULD build naturally for 4 or 5 years and then when they reach plateaus that they can't get over begin using AS.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Wait four or five years??? Yeah sure Ulter, dream on.
The vast majority of people here start using AS after a year, maybe two, of training when they are nowhere near their genetic limit. So their first cycle blows them up pretty easily. But then they have hit the genetic limit that that amount of AS is going to make them grow and the gains come MUCH slower. The only answer is the one the pros use. Double your doses. And then BOOM you'll blow up again just like the first time. What you don't see when people do this however is a mature muscle mass. When you cut the corners of building lean mass by jumping on steroids too soon you get bigger but it doesn't look the same as someone who has THICK, etched, LBM.
If you do wait until you’ve hit your natural limit your gains on your first cycle will not be as dramatic but you’ll look WAY better when you’re done. There is no comparison between newbie growth and adding to mature muscle mass.
So it’s not a resistance to the drugs. It’s not cortisol. It’s just where your genetic limit is and how far you’ve pushed past it using AS. And this is also why some guys post “I gained 30 pounds on my first cycle and kept it” and others post “My gear is fake, I only gained 10 pounds on the same cycle”.

You can say "genetic limit", but can you explain what inside the body makes you stop from going beyond?

 

[casualbb]

completely disagree..most people think they become resistant to gear..truth is they do not up their cals as they grow..time and time again people say i stop growing after X weeks..well if you gained 10 lbs or more you need to eat more otherwise your gains stagnate..it works te same way even if you are training natural..ive been natty for the lat year and lately my diet hasnt been the best (im not eating as much but im still getting in decen protein) ive noticed that my weight hasnt moved in awhile and my strength although going up is moving up slowly..why is ronnie able to add 40lbs of mass at his stage of development..training and nutrition..

dude I agree, and furthermore our posts are not mutually exclusive

Like I hear about these guys who are like, "My first cycle was great, an 8-weeker and I gained 12 pounds!"

well shit I can do that naturally with the right eating. Most people are undereating when on cycle.

 

[casualbb]

You can say "genetic limit", but can you explain what inside the body makes you stop from going beyond?

The muscles in your body are in a state of constant flux.

Protein is flowing in and out at pretty quick rates. Most of the time protein in = protein out, and youi maintain muscle size.

Working out raises both protein in AND protein out, but protein in just a little bit more. Over time, gains can accrue.

Steroids will both INCREASE the protein in by triggering cellular growth and decrease the protein out by inhibiting cortisol. This will actually happen on its own without working out, but couple it with working out and there's a synergistic growth effect.

However as you get bigger and bigger, the amount of protein leaving the muscles increases (because there's more of them interacting with the blood), but usually the same amount of protein going in. THis is why you have to increase the steroid doses as you get bigger; you need a stronger "protein in" signal to counter the ever increasing "protein out" that results from growing very large.

Genetic limit just refers to a point at which a natural trainee, no matter how he trains or eats, cannot overcome the tendency for the body to breakdown the muscle tissue. ie protein out cannot be overcome with a training stimulus

 

[Makavelli]

This is the way I see it: When one introduces a supraphysiological amount of AAS into their system the androgen receptors on the muscle cells are filled rather quickly which causes hypertrophy of the cells. Thereby creating more receptors, which are then filled, etc. This will continue to occur until the level of receptors meets the level of androgens present. At which point muscle growth will slow dramatically or even come to a halt. Unless more androgens are added or the person can accept gaining much slower(at the pace of someone that is natural), then growth will be minimized. At this point there are more receptors than androgens. If this was not the case when one added more AAS at this point nothing would happen. But obviously when increasing the AAS employed something does happen-more growth. Assuming of course that the individual is eating enough, which was discussed above. JMO.

 

[Ulter]

You can say "genetic limit", but can you explain what inside the body makes you stop from going beyond?

If I did I would be working on the Human Genome Project instead of posting on Elite. No one knows the complete genetic code although muscle growth seems to be regulated by the myostatin gene.

 

[geoboy]

In my opinion, there are two little discussed dangers of steroids, both of which are very real. Although steroids do increase nitrogen retention, reduce muscle catabolism (tissue breakdown), and volumize muscle cells, steroid users are often disappointed with their results. Steroid use at the expense of proper nutrition and intense training often leads to no more than a temporary "bloat." .

Check

Even when combined with intense training and supportive nutrition, the body tends to build up a resistance to the drugs, bringing the enhanced muscle growth to a halt.

the mechanism might not be right, but the end result is for that cycle, and for that amt of the same drug.

As this tolerance develops, the muscle cells begin to develop more cortisol receptors. Cortisol is a catabolic hormone, thus, when the steroid use is stopped, the residual muscle stopped, the residual muscle breakdown is rapid.

complete and utter bullshit.

the breakdown immediately post-cycle is because of the reversal in the cortisol to testosterone ratio. you stop the exogenous steroids and your endogenous test production is shutdown. if you're on HRT or after you regain your natty test levels that acute breakdown stops. I havent seen any studies showing increased cortisol production or incresed # of cortisol receptors. this is a wives tale from early Bodybuilding lore. if anyone has studies to contrary I'd love to see them.

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